I think pretty much everyone here has named my approach to this. My Corvette would be hightailing it for the easiest intel to grab, then it's off to the other two I placed.

If, on the other hand, the 3 Vics were way spread out, my entire fleet would go after a Vic on the end that is most exposed.

The Vic on the end would slow to 1, the other 2 would come in and reinforce the flanked ship right as you come around. Your ships would enter a grinder and you would likely lose up to 2 of them if they are CR90's

Here's the thing, the three VSD's don't matter in this scenario. Let's say Rebels are running three ships including a CR90, I've got initiative as we've been talking about, and we're just talking about stealing one Objective token.

Imperials line their three objectives up three in a row, distance three from each other and four from their edge, and the VSD's are facing them. If I line one token up across from one of his on an end, then I can easily score my token as I flip my CR90's command dial on turn two and then move it last directly at your token. I probably take Medium range fire, that I should easily survive, and the turn ends with our ships both within one of the token, and I activate first to grab it, unload into your VSD and possibly get a Squadron command off before taking the token and zooming away at a four speed. Meanwhile, the rest of my fleet and squadrons are following up on the same ship while I head off for the third token.

All I've been saying is, Intel may work as a gimmick the first time an opponent plays against it, but trick plays don't usually fool someone twice, and you might want to try an easier objective considering the list.

You get 2 tokens before your dead. IFF has gone over this, I have gone over this, it is the fact of the setup. You have to think that each token will have a VSD guard. That is not easy to tangle with. A VSD 2 will pound your ship the first chance it gets and it will die more often than naught. Test it out since I don't think you have had a competent opponent do this to you

How? How will I get pounded by a VSD? Two VSD's move before my objective ship does, his last ship gets one shot to destroy me, at medium to long range, before I move first and take the token. Having Mon Mothma gives me evades even at close range, and just ECM keeps my Evade and Redirect available, and those are fairly common upgrades for a CR90.

So, one VSD at medium to long range getting a single shot to kill me before I zoom off doesn't scare me. Three slow moving VSD's, set three range apart to cover each Objectives lets me focus my ship's fire and squadrons versus a single VSD, and my speed advantage means even if all I do is grab the Tokens to win.

You guys should play a game over Vassal and let us know how it goes.

Single shot? Have you not considered that they could be at the furthest point back moving speed 1 for where your objective ship will be. You will get 2 tokens likely not more. The first VSD will blast you when you get to your second token, if you don't go for one of the tokens of the VSD player he wins, if you do, 2 out of 3 VSD's will catch you when you use him first. Even at long range you will get caught. Like I said, try it out and see what happens. I have tested this and it ends horribly

I can't currently play on Vassal. I have the ships to test this and have. I will do a video over this I think. . .

Single shot? Have you not considered that they could be at the furthest point back moving speed 1 for where your objective ship will be. You will get 2 tokens likely not more. The first VSD will blast you when you get to your second token, if you don't go for one of the tokens of the VSD player he wins, if you do, 2 out of 3 VSD's will catch you when you use him first. Even at long range you will get caught. Like I said, try it out and see what happens. I have tested this and it ends horribly

The table is three feet wide, token placement is one foot from the edge, I place my second token directly across from one of your tokens one foot away. Your three VSD's are each 3 range from each other, putting them at least three range from where my CR90 will be moving away from you at four speed on round 3. So, how do the slower moving ships catch me?

Round 1, CR90 moves forward four and ends within range 1 of my token while each VSD is still half way to their three tokens. Round 2, CR90 moves last and ends within range 1 of your token, you activate your third VSD and he gets one round of shooting before ending within range 1 of my CR90 and your Token. Round 3, I activate my CR90, collect your token, fire on your VSD, and then move away at four speed giving you a long range shot on my rear from your side arc. At this point your three VSD's are range 4-5 and 7-8 and 10-11 from a ship moving twice their speed, so how do they catch me?

I'm moving at one ship on the outside edge, turning away after grabbing a second token, and heading towards a third token. So again, how are your slower moving and spread out ships surrounding and getting multiple shots on my CR90?

I can't currently play on Vassal. I have the ships to test this and have. I will do a video over this I think. . .

I am so ticked.

I looked at your location, and we're at opposite ends of the country. I'll drive a state or two for an Armada game, but not the whole darn continent!

I would love to try out our competing strategies on this against each other. I'm not a Vassal guy either and don't even know if it works on Mac.

Looking forward to your video. You're not going to be on the East Coast any time soon by any chance?

Sorry no. Maybe we can meet up at a world's or something and have a game of three.

Single shot? Have you not considered that they could be at the furthest point back moving speed 1 for where your objective ship will be. You will get 2 tokens likely not more. The first VSD will blast you when you get to your second token, if you don't go for one of the tokens of the VSD player he wins, if you do, 2 out of 3 VSD's will catch you when you use him first. Even at long range you will get caught. Like I said, try it out and see what happens. I have tested this and it ends horribly

The table is three feet wide, token placement is one foot from the edge, I place my second token directly across from one of your tokens one foot away. Your three VSD's are each 3 range from each other, putting them at least three range from where my CR90 will be moving away from you at four speed on round 3. So, how do the slower moving ships catch me?

Round 1, CR90 moves forward four and ends within range 1 of my token while each VSD is still half way to their three tokens. Round 2, CR90 moves last and ends within range 1 of your token, you activate your third VSD and he gets one round of shooting before ending within range 1 of my CR90 and your Token. Round 3, I activate my CR90, collect your token, fire on your VSD, and then move away at four speed giving you a long range shot on my rear from your side arc. At this point your three VSD's are range 4-5 and 7-8 and 10-11 from a ship moving twice their speed, so how do they catch me?

I'm moving at one ship on the outside edge, turning away after grabbing a second token, and heading towards a third token. So again, how are your slower moving and spread out ships surrounding and getting multiple shots on my CR90?

Let's set it up turn by turn. Range 3 is what Medium range correct? So 3 VSD 2's have 6 dice, you can use 2 tokens per attack, 1 evade and 1 redirect. In order to grab the token at speed 4 you will have to make a grand sweeping arc that brings you in line with their shots.

Now remember that the VSD 2 has 3 red and 3 blue dice. He will likely get at least 1 accuracy of not 2. If he gets 1 he negates your redirect, you cancel 1 dice and likely that 2 damage and a crit. That will be the turn you come in to grab the one of their tokens.

Range 3 is also about what, speed 2 away so yes they would be a hell of a lot closer, and one of the VSD's (likely the middle) would of shot up to speed 2 and conducted a sharp turn to let you run into his arc. This means if you don't want to lose the 39 points on top of not being able to get tokens you can't try for the third one since he will likely be right over it.

Well you could try for it but if you don't get it for what ever reason, you will lose. He will kill your ship and then take the 75 points himself.

Like I said, you don't have to take my word for it. Go test it out.

Oh and the standard tactic is to place their objective ship right across from your token as well. The reason is for the same reason you put your across. While they don't expect to grab it, they can turn into the other 2 tokens they placed and have 1 token the same turn you get 1 token. That means you have to go for the middle token or the other token you placed.

From your hypothesis, it looks like you did not think of that. They actually went in depth with this on Intensify Forward Firepower.

Advanced Gunnery is the worst thing your opponent could pick...one of your shops would get to double shoot its front arc, and the other two would get to use their fronts at all times.

Intel sweep or outpost is the obvious choice depending on how your opponent wanted to engage you. I chose outpost in a list like this so I knew where he'd be so I could just smash into his ships and unload my dice as fast as I could.

This type of list seems like points denial with objectives and an opportunity kill is its best tactic: it has lower mobility, but massive health, and good damage. I'd worry about not getting my 10-0 due to all the health I'd have to burn through.

Of course these are my strategic concerns, yours could trump mine and you murder me.

Wonder if it'll be worse to see trip-ISD lists after wave 2, or if these types of lists are, indeed, flawed. Time will tell.

I have to admit I don't feel I entirely understand what you're saying here. Advanced Gunnery is bad for me, or for them? I think that Advanced Gunnery is worst for me because it doesn't generate me any points, rather, it likely costs me them as my opponent flanks my objective ship and gets double value for it. Sure, it may be possible for me to sweep their list in the process, but keeping my opponent in my forward arcs is much harder when they aren't incentivized to move somewhere specific due to objectives. I don't think they can beat 3 VSDs, but I do expect them to always be able to take down one.

Are you saying Contested Outpost is good for them, or for me? Obviously, smashing ships together and unloading dice is precisely what I want. I'm also unclear about the phrase "points denial". I am indeed intending to deny my opponent from getting the objective points, but it's not like it's just stalling...getting those points wins me the game. And 30 shields and 30 hull helps keep me there.

I think this type of list gets worse in 400 points, because the threat of fighters goes up, and a fighter screen may be required, which means dedicating enough fighters that the concept of blanking your opponent's fighter screen becomes moot.

With regards to the concern about playing for a draw, 3 VSD, if placed spread out, can cover a lot of the board. If your opponent slows down and then speeds past you they may not be in range for long, but with effective manoeuvring it's not unreasonable that you might get enough of a shot to take out a small ship like a corvette. If your opponent also is playing tanks and wants to turtle, you may indeed have a draw. But at least the extra firepower of Advanced Gunnery would give you the edge in breaking the stalemate.

The problem I have with this type of list, esp with your blue, is that it lets your opponent take you piecemeal. If you spread out I can engage 1-2 of your destroyers and focus down one at a time.

Even outpost (which is what I would Prob pick), let's me roll up your flank with all of my mobile firepower and unload into one ship at a time. A demolisher Rolling your flanks and stern backed with 3 black dice squads and 5 blue dice squads WILL annihilate your ships at a break-neck speed...I've done it once and the sheer size and unresponsive was of your destroyers will not allow them to respond well to a flank being assaulted heavily.

Essentially I'll give up 30-60 points from the outpost while I focus on sweeping you from the board. perhaps I'll err and get caught with a VSD volley or two that'll cripple me and hurt my win, but I feel any balanced list would be able to engage you in a favorable position to reduce the danger of those VSDII fronts.

It is a lot harder than you guys think.

Here is why, the Imperial player is likely to stack navigation commands the first 4 turns. This means that the middle VSD can respond by getting a speed 1 45 degree turn into the side you are hitting and the VSD in the rear will likely confront your objective ship and deny it the second toke. It would normally aim for.

2 VSD will pincer killing 1 ship and since they are likely using Tarkin or Motti (Motti if they wanted some upgrade points like liaisons or XI7 Turbolasers) they will be able to shred whatever ship you send while it will take you several turns of combat to down the shields of one (baring a Salvation equipped with XI7's).

Now the game is fluid and any list can be beaten due to dice, strategy and style of play but this list is powerful and can't be ignored. It may see world's play but if it does NO One will pick the Intel Sweep.

Thanks for your support Lyraeus. I don't claim that this list is the best, or unbeatable, but I think people are misunderstanding some of the tactical subtlety available to VSDs, probably from having played against opponents who only use them as lumbering tanks in a line.

For Intel Sweep, I get to see where you intend to go just from initial placement of tokens. If one is in a direct line with one of my own, I start my objective ship on that side and collect it T2. There's no reason I have to line up one VSD to each token, if it's clear that you're going to go straight for a particular one, I can put my other two VSDs near that one. I probably have one go at speed 2 and reach the token on T1, and slow down on top of it T2, while the second destroyer stays back at speed 1 and covers the escape vector. Don't forget that placement of obstacles is tactical as well, and between them and using my VSDs as roadblocks, I can legitimately limit where your objective ship ends up if it wants to be within distance 1 of the objective token, because it has to avoid a collision. Every time I've played this scenario against a player who knew what was happening, the asteroids were put in exactly the right place that both players were electing to ram into them, because doing otherwise would have prevented them from grabbing the Intel that turn.

For Contested Outpost, people seem stuck on the notion that Destroyers can't respond to being flanked. All it requires is aggressive use of Navigate commands. Don't line your destroyers up, stagger them, and if your opponent takes on the lead one, they're in your forward arc. If they bank around and attack your side, Navigate and bank 45 degrees into them. Keep the next destroyer back so that when they pass your first ship, there's another one behind it. And if Contested Outpost isn't contested, it's not 30-60 points, its 80-120 points. Which means you can take out a destroyer and still lose on points.

The VSDs can't just suddenly navigate, though. You'll need to have planned for that two turns prior.

Yup that is true. . . Unless you use a liason. They allow you to get away with that. It's actually not that hard to do though, with Contested outpost, almost all of your commands will be navigation commands

It is a good strategy that I did not think up. I heard it on Intensify Forward Firepower and tested it out myself. It works bit has limitations.

It does not work well for me for one because I am better at going first than I am going second (something I am working on) but yea, the strategy is pretty linear to a degree

A. I'd like to test some of this in Vassal if anyone is willing...as I still see 3 VSDs with no squadrons as easy prey to a balanced heavy-hitter like what I have.

B. Only once of your VSDs can capture stuff, and it's slow. The issue would be me not knowing which of your 3 destroyers you'll nominate, but if I'm near it I can just blast it down and my faster glad can swoop up more than you can get in 2 turns to net that 75point bonus? Maybe I'm wrong as I've never played Intel so don't know just how much of a pain it might be.

C. If I choose outpost, i'd know where your VSDs will be. You'll have a hard time blasting my bombers away before I get in close and unload enough damage to kill a destroyer each turn if I roll well. If I surround you from multiple fronts with bombers/fighters you won't get great return from your anti-squad dice...and If you don't have gunnery teams (don't recall) I can just sit in front of you if SupPos isn't the mission and you won't even shoot at me since you'll want to hit my big ships.

Again, while my opponent did deploy a little staggered, so It was 1VSD against my VSD and Glad and bombers at a time I was able to delete the ship in 2 rounds of shooting easy. Now, if you deploy close enough to support well, you won't have the space to try to flank me...essentially you'll have two VSDIIs facing off to my one VSD-I with Gunnery Team while being flanked by a demonlisher and 8 squadrons, 3 of which with full-use-black-dice. As people have said, you'll have to use navigate commands a lot in order to turn your VSDs properly to engage, so you'll not be reapiring or empowering your attacks as much as I will.

I can just sit back and repair shields while I do proportionally more damage per turn to BOTH the ships with my single VSD. Keep in mind, I'm confident in my VSD being able to tango toe-to-toe with two IMPERIAL star destoryers long enough for my support ships to finish the job. So i'm sure as hell not worried about trading shots against two Vic-IIs.

Then again, perhaps I roll poorly and you roll well and knock me out? Perhaps I flub some manuevers? So far Armada games seem to be extremely resilient to bad-dice, unlike in X-Wing...so much of the swingyness is simply gone. So I'm not too worried about it...my main worry is not getting a full 10-0 to take first place

I am wondering, though, as we have the same point totals. If you ended up going first, what mission would you choose?

Precision Strike, Fleet Ambush, or Superior Positions?

I played this against a 1-VSD, Demolisher list with bomber support and it was a tough game to be sure. I lost, but I partly blame tactical errors I won't make again and partly blame exceptional dice rolling on his part. Turn 2, 4 bombers rolled 9 damage on 4 Black and a Blue (all max). A few turns later, his VSD rolled 9 damage on a frontal assault, while my frontal assault back scored 3 damage. Still, he dealt exactly enough damage to destroy my VSD before it could activate, an activation that could have potentially taken his VSD out and won me the game.

So certainly, a balanced mix of VSD, Gladiator and Bombers is a tough match. We were playing Intel Sweep and I scored 2 to his 1, but lost 2 VSDs, while only taking out a few fighters. (I was firing at fighters because they were all in one arc, while his other ships were out of range or obstructed)

However, I have consistently demonstrated the ability to put my Destroyers where I want them with well timed Navigate commands, which I have come to respect as one of the most important skills for Armada, particularly for an Imperial player.

after reading this I'm tempted to buy a 3rd VSD. Especially considering when the points go up to 400 I could still see running 3 VSDs (have to make sure I don't buy something just to play it a few times, long term viability seems important to me).

still wondering the points on that imperial star destroyer.. perhaps we could squeeze in 3 VSDs and a ISD into a 400 point list..

Hmmmm how does a GSD get 3 tokens in 2 turns?

They're fast and agile, but again I've not played those kinds of missions since I have to take my ship I want unloading black dice away from the fight to collect things. Maybe when I'm at 400 with a raider. Till then I'll take outpost and come in from the side to collapse a flank while my squads and demolished zip around back and rake fire into the lumbering beasts.

I would like to point out, that reason I think Armada is vastly superior to X-Wing is the much reduced effect of dice. I just had a game of xwing on vassal that I lost because: dice. Pure and simple. Armada doesn't seem to have that issue...and if it comes up you'll see it happen 100x more in xwing in proportion.

As you said, his dice hurt a lot, but your not taking anything to stop his bombers hurt much more. You also said you could likely have still won if you played better even with some dice stacking against you. I really find this compelling, as my loses in armada never seem to feel like I got screwed, I just know I can fix what I lost to (you stated the same).

Basically, best designed game I've played yet

PS: still interested on your take of MY objectives, as it's good to look into how you'd play as first player too.

One of the main aspects of a list like this is to have one thing that you're good at and focus hard on it. In this case, it means having no fighter support and not being flexible with objectives. Your initiative bid is strong to allow you to play objectives that may make enough points to compensate for your bomber weakness, and to avoid objectives that you simply can't compete in. If your list is bomber heavy with an equally aggressive initiative bid, it seems like that list would simply be a terrible match-up. Never being first player is an important tenant of this list. I'd probably take Fleet Ambush against you and try to take out your ships as fast as possible, because total destruction is probably my only plan against that list.