VSD-II

-Admiral Motti

-Wulff Yularen

VSD-II

-Veteran Captain

VSD-II

Total: 289 points

Objectives: Advanced Gunnery, Contested Outpost, Intel Sweep

Advanced Gunnery is the objective that seems to put the most fear into people with this list, but honestly I think it's the weakest of the three here. Fortunately, Intel Sweep provides such a fascinating choice that most of my opponents can't resist trying to outfox me with it. I feel that one of this list's greatest weaknesses would be playing Advanced Gunnery against a mobile fleet with bombers that can destroy my objective ship with focused fire. An alternate build I've considered would switch out Yularen and the Veteran Captain for two XX-9 Turbolasers, and using Precision Strike instead of Advanced Gunnery; but honestly everyone seems too afraid of Advanced Gunnery to challenge me on what I consider to be my greatest weakness.

Contested Outpost is pretty straightforward. Basically only the mirror (or 3 AF) can muster 9 command, and several lists will struggle to match you on 6 command, so keeping two Destroyers within distance of the station should be sufficient to acquire 80-120 points. Parking on top of it is one possibility, but obviously leaves you more vulnerable and should only be done against lists you are confident cannot do much against you. Mostly, stagger your ships so that the first destroyer flies into range on turn 1, cruises over it on turn 2, moves to far range on turn 3, and can slow to a stop on turn 4 if needed. Behind it, the second destroyer follows it a turn slower, providing full coverage. Your flagship, meanwhile, can be positioned depending on the enemy list, but Yularen affords it more manoeuvrability, so it can be started farther away and trail behind the second ship, or run along side the station and engage enemy ships, drawing fire from your point vessels.

A heavy enemy list will lead to a slugging match over the station that will pit your front arcs versus theirs, but positioning your lead ship correctly will force them to destroy it before they can push through it, and you should be up 80 points by then, to offset the loss. Against a lighter list, two ships near the station should be sufficient to claim it, and your flagship is free to hold back and cover your rear arcs. Fighters should be capable of destroying one of your ships in 6 rounds, but have difficulty getting into range to destroy two, which again is covered through the point gain of the objective.

Intel Sweep is the fun one, though. The positioning is as follows: your three objective tokens in a line, just past distance 5, with your objective ship on an angle, ready to bank parallel to your side of the map. It never needs to go past distance 4. It will pick up the first token on turn 2 and the second on turn 3, which is the absolute earliest the enemy objective ship can have reached that far. Your other two destroyers get placed facing the last two tokens and cruise slowly past them, forcing an enemy objective ship to enter the front arcs of two VSDs if it wants to reach the last marker before the start of turn 4. As above, a fast list with fighters can certainly take out one of your ships, but the bonus 75 points mostly makes up for it.

One of the great strengths of this list is its ability to blank an enemy fighter screen. Enemy bombers may be able to do enough damage to threaten a VSD, but points spent on anti-fighter capability are completely wasted. This has been played against 6 TIEs and even 6 X-Wings and taken little enough damage from them over the course of the game. Don't forget that with a navigate command, a VSD can bank enough to get away from several fighters in front of it, preventing them from simply sitting in front of it and getting free attacks every turn. Another great strength is the incredible durability. If it is possible to divide your opponent's ships and engage them separately, your fleet can potentially suffer 57 damage without losing a single ship; more realistically, it's possible to end round 6 with 5-6 damage on each of your surviving ships because your opponent wasn't able to concentrate enough fire into one place.

None of your objectives require you to travel far into the map, so feel comfortable leaving your ships at speed 1 (with a navigate token) and letting your opponent come to you. This makes it harder for them to circle behind you, especially if you bank your ships so that one's nose covers another's rear. It's also totally valid to abandon a fight you're likely to win if you're ahead on points. Multiple times, a rebel player has swept in behind me and slowed to keep me in their arc while another ship flanks me, and rather than exchange fire and possibly exchange my ship for their smaller one, I speed up to speed 2 and bank past them. If your opponent isn't expecting it, they can lose a turn of effective firing as they reposition, which can be enough to keep your monster alive.

I maintain that effective use of navigate commands is one of the critical skills of this game, and a talented player can make even VSDs dance more than their opponent expects. I have a photo of two of my destroyers passing each other with about a millimetre between their bases, each nose covering the other's rear. However, it's taken me a long time to get used to the lumbering movement of Imperial hardware, and I think that a list like this is very easy to misplay.

I prefer the version with three gunnery teams instead of Wulf and VC. Advanced Gunnery is the right objective to take vs this, and given that I prefer to be first player, would be happy to do so.

I absolutely agree that this list requires someone master the use of the nav command on VSDs. Still, one of the three will be the one on the end...

I played a similar list using only 2 VSDs with Outpost mission (He opted for second player). Seemed simple enough to delete one vic then the other. Might be harder if it was deployed in a wedge formation so my glad would have to dash past the lead ship into the front arc of another vic. Be an interesting game.

I prefer the version with three gunnery teams instead of Wulf and VC. Advanced Gunnery is the right objective to take vs this, and given that I prefer to be first player, would be happy to do so.

I absolutely agree that this list requires someone master the use of the nav command on VSDs. Still, one of the three will be the one on the end...

If you think the correct Objective for the opponent to choose is Advanced Gunnery, I'm not sure why you'd suggest 3 Gunnery Teams, since it's going to be wasted on one ship. Given my tendency to manoeuvre my ships into strange locations, I don't tend to find that I have multiple enemy ships in one arc anyway, so I personally see very little advantage to Gunnery Teams. Now, if they let you fire on the same ship twice...

In an all out brawl, I suggest a spread out line formation that encourages your opponent to try to pass around one side and get behind you, and then bank all three destroyers sharply in that direction. The ships that get behind your lead vessel are suddenly facing a gauntlet of three destroyers; it requires multiple consecutive navigate commands to pull off, but it means that the only unshielded rear is at the opposite end of the line. It's worked to great effect for me in the past.

Advanced Gunnery is the worst thing your opponent could pick...one of your shops would get to double shoot its front arc, and the other two would get to use their fronts at all times.

Intel sweep or outpost is the obvious choice depending on how your opponent wanted to engage you. I chose outpost in a list like this so I knew where he'd be so I could just smash into his ships and unload my dice as fast as I could.

This type of list seems like points denial with objectives and an opportunity kill is its best tactic: it has lower mobility, but massive health, and good damage. I'd worry about not getting my 10-0 due to all the health I'd have to burn through.

Of course these are my strategic concerns, yours could trump mine and you murder me.

Wonder if it'll be worse to see trip-ISD lists after wave 2, or if these types of lists are, indeed, flawed. Time will tell.

Has anyone tired just running and going for a draw against this yet? I would be concerned about bringing a list like this to a tournament in case people decided not to play it and just take a 5:5 (chose advanced gunnery then run for the corners).

It wouldn’t always be possible since you might end up as first player and can then chose an objective to force an engagement (maybe – if they have such an objective).

I didn't say I would take advanced gunnery with the three Gunnery Team version. I'd probably take most wanted.

I am biased in my choice of advanced gunnery with the first version, as I am a 3-4 GSD player who loves to go first. Sure other lists maybe not so much.

Advanced Gunnery is the worst thing your opponent could pick...one of your shops would get to double shoot its front arc, and the other two would get to use their fronts at all times.

Intel sweep or outpost is the obvious choice depending on how your opponent wanted to engage you. I chose outpost in a list like this so I knew where he'd be so I could just smash into his ships and unload my dice as fast as I could.

This type of list seems like points denial with objectives and an opportunity kill is its best tactic: it has lower mobility, but massive health, and good damage. I'd worry about not getting my 10-0 due to all the health I'd have to burn through.

Of course these are my strategic concerns, yours could trump mine and you murder me.

Wonder if it'll be worse to see trip-ISD lists after wave 2, or if these types of lists are, indeed, flawed. Time will tell.

I have to admit I don't feel I entirely understand what you're saying here. Advanced Gunnery is bad for me, or for them? I think that Advanced Gunnery is worst for me because it doesn't generate me any points, rather, it likely costs me them as my opponent flanks my objective ship and gets double value for it. Sure, it may be possible for me to sweep their list in the process, but keeping my opponent in my forward arcs is much harder when they aren't incentivized to move somewhere specific due to objectives. I don't think they can beat 3 VSDs, but I do expect them to always be able to take down one.

Are you saying Contested Outpost is good for them, or for me? Obviously, smashing ships together and unloading dice is precisely what I want. I'm also unclear about the phrase "points denial". I am indeed intending to deny my opponent from getting the objective points, but it's not like it's just stalling...getting those points wins me the game. And 30 shields and 30 hull helps keep me there.

I think this type of list gets worse in 400 points, because the threat of fighters goes up, and a fighter screen may be required, which means dedicating enough fighters that the concept of blanking your opponent's fighter screen becomes moot.

With regards to the concern about playing for a draw, 3 VSD, if placed spread out, can cover a lot of the board. If your opponent slows down and then speeds past you they may not be in range for long, but with effective manoeuvring it's not unreasonable that you might get enough of a shot to take out a small ship like a corvette. If your opponent also is playing tanks and wants to turtle, you may indeed have a draw. But at least the extra firepower of Advanced Gunnery would give you the edge in breaking the stalemate.

One additional bonus that springs to mind: since you've only Vic2s, even a bomber-heavy rebel fleet will have trouble keeping in range to issue squadron commands - and staying outside blue range.

Some players claim that the benefit from the Vic2s blue range dice is minuscule, but my experience is to the contrary: blue dice get to shoot quite often over the course of a game, nicely adding to the red dice with extra damage and accuracy, but the black dice on a Vic1 rarely get off many shots.

it seems like blue dice fire at 150% the range of black, roughly (can't tell distances for ****)

that's significant as all hell

Just making sure I get this list, you're bidding eleven points under so you can choose to go second and force the other player to pick amongst your three Objectives?

And one of the three you're offering a player like me with my double double NebB and CR90 with fighter escort list is Intel, versus your slow as molasses triple VSD no fighter list? I see a lot of Rebel list that do include at least a single CR90 and many Impy list flying around with a Glad for mirror matches.

Because, I would be very happy having first player and a Vette than can zoom zoom at four trying to collect three objective tokens before your two speed VSD can. I just think there could be a better Objective choice for you to take than one that rewards the other player for being fast versus your slow moving fleet.

Because, I would be very happy having first player and a Vette than can zoom zoom at four trying to collect three objective tokens before your two speed VSD can. I just think there could be a better Objective choice for you to take than one that rewards the other player for being fast versus your slow moving fleet.

Did you read my explanation of how I set up Intel Sweep? Because that's part of the trap. With three objective tokens lined up on my side of the field, a speed 4 corvette can't cover that much distance before the token is under the front guns of two VSD-IIs, and indeed often underneath them. Grabbing it necessitates flying into a field of dice that can one-shot your objective ship. Since I'm grabbing tokens on turns 2, 3 and 4 with my slow as molasses objective ship, your corvette needs to grab the last one at the latest as the first activation on turn 4. Any later and its mine, and any earlier and you can't possibly already have 2, meaning you steal one from me, I destroy your objective ship, and then we probably tie at two each.

In this scenario, my two non-objective destroyers function mostly as obstacles. Their only real purpose is to interpose themselves between your objective ship and the final intel token. No matter how manoeuvrable your ship, picking up two tokens and then getting around two, or three, destroyers to be in position for the last one, in three turns, is nigh impossible. After all, I know where your ship is going to be if you want to claim the objective tokens you placed, and while my ships may not be fast, they do take up a lot of space.

I have played out this scenario before, against multiple opponents, and that's how it goes. Either they play it safe with their objective ship and my destroyer gets to fly in a straight line across my half of the board, munching 3 tokens, or they come in hard and fast into the front arcs of two destroyers, forgoing one of the other tokens they placed to get there first. If I can tell they're going to pick up my last token, I bank my objective ship and trundle slowly towards their final token, knowing that we'll either be tied at 2-2, or I can reach that last one by the final turn and be up 75 points.

I'm sure an effective strategy could be established to beat this placement by an opponent who routinely faces it, but part of the efficacy is that when we start placing, my opponent usually expects me to be placing my tokens all over the map as well, not in a straight line as far away from her as possible.

Yes I read it and how you're lining three of the five in a row, and that means I only need take one of your three and my two, and I'm still not seeing it working out as easy as you make it sound. You can't cover all three objectives with all three VSD's, meaning I'm not taking quite as much fire. If you're too spread out, my ships and fighters can concentrate on a single ship.

I'm glad it's worked for you so far, but I still think there's a better Objective to choose from.

What's interesting about this list/playstyle, is the reference you make to contested outpost saying that in 6 turns bombers can kill one VSD, but you'll be ahead on points from the objective. This kind of approach would work fine for local outings most of the time, but in big events, it will be important to not just win but win by ALOT. Events like gencon, worlds, and probably regionals etc next year appear to be operating on just x number of rounds with no cut and letting the margin of victory scoring system sorting things out. Will be interesting to see as this game develops how much that impacts fleet choice. I would imagine fast ships being popular since they can possible disengage if near death (sorry VSD).

Intel Sweep is definitely the current hotness in my games. No one wants to try (insert yellow here) or (insert red here) because it's "too tough for the first player" so the Sweepin' has been happening. I do think your opponents are not delving deep enough if the objectives are always set up with three in a straight line in front of you, two in a straight line in front of him/her. The first player has a degree of control over where the second player can make his/her line.

DrunkTarkin and the rest of IFF went over Intel Sweep and the use with VSD's.

Now while I think this list is powerful, I think there are a few weaknesses. Hmmmmmm I will be back with a list. . .

Some very good insights and points made here. I'll confess that trying to consistently win by the largest MOV possible hasn't been a priority for me, and that requirement could certainly shape the meta at high level tournaments. On the other hand, I don't know if two well-built and well-piloted lists can ever expect to have a consistent and decisive winner unless one is geared to be a bad matchup for the other. In that regard, a list like this could represent a gamble in that area: bomber heavy lists are likely going to end the game with similar points to you irrespective of who won, but ship-based lists with anti-fighter screens waste a lot of points against you. Against this list, you have to deal 10 hull damage to a single Destroyer to score any points at all, so it is possible to end a game with your opponent at 0 points. Although certainly not against all lists.

I don't mean to imply that my opponents for Intel Sweep necessarily line their tokens up in a row, in fact, I've had them carefully place a token with the correct radius to prevent me from placing my final token on my line, which was an excellent disruption. In the end, though, he still wasn't able to fight through 2 Destroyers to collect it and we ended the game 3-2, albeit my objective ship had to fight harder to get there.

And coastcityo: the first token I claim on turn 2, my opponent has no way of reaching it. The second token I claim on turn 3, which they can only reach with very direct and aggressive flying, which is easy to see coming. So I point 1 destroyer at token 3, and the second halfway between 2 and 3, and turn it appropriately on turn 2. No matter which of the two tokens the enemy objective ship flies at, they're facing the noses of 2 VSDs. No spreading out needed.

All that being said, this list is mainly intended to be an exploitation of people's expectations of what a list should look like. Having more firepower on ships and no squadrons forces them to play a different game than they may have come prepared to fight. No doubt, an effective counter can be prepared, and if this list was to become highly popular, it could easily be hated out of a meta. So this isn't intended to be a regular appearance at the top tables, but rather something different to catch people by surprise and force them to be uncomfortable.

What if they disrupt your Intel token placement?

I'll be honest that I haven't played enough permutations of Intel Sweep with my placement being disrupted to have answers to all the possible plays. I'd love to get some more games in against players who were thinking about that. I can certainly line two of them up, though, so the third one may simply be placed farther out to the side, and my two other destroyers have to more aggressively seek it out to defend it.

The previous game where I was disrupted, that is what happened. One token by my opponent's ship, one by mine, two near the middle where my placement was disrupted and one to the far left. My opponent had to pick a direction to send his agile ship, while my two destroyers headed in the same direction, and my objective ship aimed for the others. He nabbed 2 quickly and was then blown to pieces, while I grabbed 2 more slowly and then trundled towards the third, just surviving long enough to end the game 3-2. It was certainly a close game, but it was decided when he felt forced into flying into 2 VSDs to try and keep me off +75 points.

I am open to the possibility that there may be an effective counter to my Intel Sweep placement; I just haven't actually seen it play out yet.

The most effective counter would be a player willing to trade the 75 points from the Objective Card in order to bag one of your 85+ point VSDs. I would ignore the intel objective tokens in order to take out your most exposed VSD. If I can do that without losing a ship, I win.

Not likely. You will likely lose 1 ship on top of the 75 points.

Not likely. You will likely lose 1 ship on top of the 75 points.

That's assuming a frontal attack. The fleet I play has the speed and maneuverability to get to either a side or (preferably) aft attack, and place about 20 dice worth of attack on target in one turn. He doesn't have gunnery teams so the max he can do is to shoot at one ship a turn. With his setting the objective tokens up as he does, it gives me a good clue as to how he will deploy his fleet, and to which flank will have the most vulnerable ship.

The issue is, you have 3 VSD's. You will flank one side but they will end up in a line, eventually you will end up in front of one of them.

Wouldn't be the first time I faced 3 VSDs. One thing having been light infantry taught me is to not fight the battle the enemy expects me to fight.

One thing being Intel taught me is to expect the unexpected and never assume you have all the facts.

I get what you are saying but I am talking in the terms of limitations that this game has.