I don't understand the soontir/corran fear

They're amazing BECAUSE they absolutely crap on 2 ship builds. Stick them against enough firepower or control (or, god forbid, blockers) and they MELT

They're not pre errata phantoms, not even close (and even against those you didn't need turrets, just a PS 10 stressbit)

It isn't fear though. Nerfing turrets doesn't help the diversity, it'll just make Brobots the next Chirpy/Fel or Dash/Corran.

The mistake is thinking that it is Turrets vs Everything Else, and that nerfing Turrets will make Everything Else equal and therefore more diverse. Instead, add counter elements to Turrets to simultaneously add something to the meta that will situationally nerf turrets.

You don't want to straight up make something worse, because it isn't the PWT itself that makes turrets so good right now. Its all those other things (high PS, movement actions, MOV, etc) that also factor into the issue.

Instead, give the players an option to make themselves stronger against a given archetype.

The problem (lack of list diversity) stems IMO from the tournament rules, not the fact that PWTs are awesome.

If you only ever play 100 point 6 rock deathmatches, then large PWT ships know they can win those. If things get too hot, they know they can just kill a couple of enemy ships and spend the rest of the game flying around to win on MoV/time.

And that's because the 6 rock deathmatch is boring and stale. Any X Wing is better than no X Wing, but the 6 rock deathmatch is probably the least fun way to play the game. What tournaments need are scenarios that punish certain list types, in order to encourage diversity. If, when you're building your list, you need to consider that there will be victory conditions OTHER than simply killing enemy ships, or that doing things other than killing enemy ships may contribute to victory, then that will influence your list building. And while a 2 ship build is often very good, what it is not, is flexible.

I disagree with the standard format being boring. But again, not everyone enjoys the same things. To me, I would rather not have to prepare for new scenarios whenever I get to go to a tournament.

Yea sorry no you kill eaden vrill and his Garden of Eaden squad build where he gets to throw 5 attack dice range one. At PS3 I don't find this overpowered

The problem (lack of list diversity) stems IMO from the tournament rules, not the fact that PWTs are awesome.

If you only ever play 100 point 6 rock deathmatches, then large PWT ships know they can win those. If things get too hot, they know they can just kill a couple of enemy ships and spend the rest of the game flying around to win on MoV/time.

And that's because the 6 rock deathmatch is boring and stale. Any X Wing is better than no X Wing, but the 6 rock deathmatch is probably the least fun way to play the game. What tournaments need are scenarios that punish certain list types, in order to encourage diversity. If, when you're building your list, you need to consider that there will be victory conditions OTHER than simply killing enemy ships, or that doing things other than killing enemy ships may contribute to victory, then that will influence your list building. And while a 2 ship build is often very good, what it is not, is flexible.

I agree so much with you. I consider myself really lucky that most the people i play with want 'story' over 'kill everything' so we tend to play games with a narrative if not a scenario every time we play and enjoy the scenarios and missions too.

Playing only 100/6 games is like owning a paint set and only using black and white.

Thanks everyone for the input. I'm going with AtomicFryingPan, Bloodstripe Baron, and eagletsi's advice to require in-arc for +1 attack at Range 1 combined with the modified (shortened) boost.

FWIW, I'm hoping the new ordnance or even new ships in the next wave offer some nice fat turret counters. That route to 'fixing' the PWT seems more likely and more preferable to a Rules FAQ on something that's been around since Wave 1. The modified Large ship barrel roll and the Phantom nerf both happened not too long after those elements were introduced to the game. So any real change to how PWTs play in the game is bound to be determined by new ships and upgrades rather than FAQs.

But I'm frustrated with how fat turrets play in the game. I haven't been playing for long, but I clearly remember the sense of let-down I experienced when I saw a fattie flying in boosted loops, shooting anywhere, and mitigating so much damage. And this isn't bitterness at getting beat - I was flying the fattie.

A lot of ships do the mabuevering plus damage cancel stackingbthing

Only the PWT can shoot anywhere, removing a great deal of choice from the game since the PWT doesn't need to sacrifice firepower for defensive maneuvering and the opponent has no option to dodge it without thrusters

They're not fun to play with or against

Counter turretvupgraturret upgrades might make them a less common sight but it won't deal with the factvthat the horrible game mechanic will still be floating around.

I do think you're right in hoping for new things, though, since that's the most likely to happen and it shows the designers are paying attention. Ffg learned well from the abomination that is the yt-1300 when it released the 2400's weak primary with emphasis on secondary weapons (blindspot or no range bonus with title), tried and failed with the decimator by thinking bombs and torps would make it give two craps about enemt positioning (admirable effort with oicuun's badass ability, though), and have learned VERY well with the kwing (especially no shoot and SLAM, clearly distinguishing the weak 2 dice pwt from the k's unique, defining ability)

I wonder if some sort of new munition that targets a ships shields would be a good counter to fatties. Say it throws 4 dice and if the attack hits, the defender loses all shield tokens but does not take any damage cards. Would really hurt B-wings too but I can live with that. Stripping 4-5 shields off all the big ships in the first pass would really take a chunk out and would bypass C-3PO.

Another thought would be an ion token FAQ for large bases. When a large ship has 1 ion token it cannot fire out of arc and rolls one less die when attacking.

I don't understand the soontir/corran fear

They're amazing BECAUSE they absolutely crap on 2 ship builds. Stick them against enough firepower or control (or, god forbid, blockers) and they MELT

They're not pre errata phantoms, not even close (and even against those you didn't need turrets, just a PS 10 stressbit)

It isn't fear though. Nerfing turrets doesn't help the diversity, it'll just make Brobots the next Chirpy/Fel or Dash/Corran.

The mistake is thinking that it is Turrets vs Everything Else, and that nerfing Turrets will make Everything Else equal and therefore more diverse. Instead, add counter elements to Turrets to simultaneously add something to the meta that will situationally nerf turrets.

You don't want to straight up make something worse, because it isn't the PWT itself that makes turrets so good right now. Its all those other things (high PS, movement actions, MOV, etc) that also factor into the issue.

Instead, give the players an option to make themselves stronger against a given archetype.

Brobots is doing well against two ship lists but they do worse against high ps builds or swarms because three dice will fail you.

I wonder if some sort of new munition that targets a ships shields would be a good counter to fatties. Say it throws 4 dice and if the attack hits, the defender loses all shield tokens but does not take any damage cards. Would really hurt B-wings too but I can live with that. Stripping 4-5 shields off all the big ships in the first pass would really take a chunk out and would bypass C-3PO.

Another thought would be an ion token FAQ for large bases. When a large ship has 1 ion token it cannot fire out of arc and rolls one less die when attacking.

How about a missile or torpedo that disables the shields for the rest of that round? Or a missile or torpedo that disables defense dice for the rest of that round?

I hope there isn't an Advanced Slam Device that just breaks the interesting mechanic right out of the gate.

Phantoms are just fine without free cloak tokens. SLAM ships will be too. I like when things have limitations on them in this game, having to deal with Super Dash or even post Nerf Whisper tier shenanigans in every game is getting a little irritating.

I wonder if some sort of new munition that targets a ships shields would be a good counter to fatties. Say it throws 4 dice and if the attack hits, the defender loses all shield tokens but does not take any damage cards. Would really hurt B-wings too but I can live with that. Stripping 4-5 shields off all the big ships in the first pass would really take a chunk out and would bypass C-3PO.

Another thought would be an ion token FAQ for large bases. When a large ship has 1 ion token it cannot fire out of arc and rolls one less die when attacking.

Edit: and your ion "fix" makes leebo crew all but useless...end edit

This will screw rebels more tan anyone else (though as an imperial this doesn't affect me much) it also allows ysanne to start working even earlier...she needs Shields gone to work you know. B wings are to heavily affected, defenders, a wings, zs and other ships who have half of their life or more invested in Shields are also screwed...we can forget ever seeing shield upgrade as well

Don't let your hatred of 3PO (who only works once per round) blind you to the severe issues that this "fix" would bring on...

Yeah, 4-5 is a bit too much. 3 wouldn't be too bad. Make it a 3 Atk.

And when having 1 Ion token is worse than having 2, your idea is bad.

No thanks. I don't need several more unplayable ships.

Just give the target an extra green die and be done with it.

Autothrusters become stronger, and other ships can mitigate more damage.

Personally I don't think a nerf to PWT is necessary. I think their current success might be a direct result of people not flying enough lists to counter them. Usually it requires more ships and everyone is wary of doing so due to MoV. Which is ironic as those two ship lists will be more likely to lose a ship in those games, simultaneously fixing the MoV issue.

When you're going up 2v2, most likely the first side to lose a ship will get tabled, which makes 100-0 wins more common.

Curiously enough, the removal of MoV by itself is enough to reduce the amount of PWTs taken. Granted, PWT lists will still be powerful, but they will be spammed less from those who only do it for MoV considerations.

Just give the target an extra green die and be done with it.

Autothrusters become stronger, and other ships can mitigate more damage.

Personally I don't think a nerf to PWT is necessary. I think their current success might be a direct result of people not flying enough lists to counter them. Usually it requires more ships and everyone is wary of doing so due to MoV. Which is ironic as those two ship lists will be more likely to lose a ship in those games, simultaneously fixing the MoV issue.

When you're going up 2v2, most likely the first side to lose a ship will get tabled, which makes 100-0 wins more common.

Curiously enough, the removal of MoV by itself is enough to reduce the amount of PWTs taken. Granted, PWT lists will still be powerful, but they will be spammed less from those who only do it for MoV considerations.

I hate you right now, and you know why.

Also: collars.

You cannot attack outside of your primary firing arc if you used boost or barrel roll this turn.

You cannot attack outside of your primary firing arc if you used boost or barrel roll this turn.

Why?

Turrets are not the problem says ORS, Vrill, and Jace.

There is no way that changing the number of dice you get with a turret doesn't screw up several ships that exist in the game or makes other ships better than they should be.

This is why the Phantom nerf worked. It affected one single ship. Turret nerfs will affect too many ships to keep a strong balance to the nerf without invalidating certain options completely.

Totally do not agree with this:

Explain how my fix nerfs other ships, please? All it does it make it the same as every other ship in the game for range 1.

I hope there isn't an Advanced Slam Device that just breaks the interesting mechanic right out of the gate.

Phantoms are just fine without free cloak tokens. SLAM ships will be too. I like when things have limitations on them in this game, having to deal with Super Dash or even post Nerf Whisper tier shenanigans in every game is getting a little irritating.

there is

it lets you do a free action if you don't overlap another ship or obstacle with your SLAM

it's one of the visible cards in the Hit Them Hard and Fast preview

But the SLAAM action has enough built in restrictions to prevent abuse. You literally cannot use SLAAM as a free action.

you wouldn't be able to SLAM and then SLAM anyway since you can't take the same action twice

it also doesn't remove the "Disabled weapon token"

it's got nothing to do with the PWT and probably everything to do with plopping mines

The ideal solution would be to send out new bases and force turret orientation to be a player controlled decision (split the base into four firing arcs, before dials are revealed declare which arc the turret is facing and mark it with a token--possibly with the restriction of only being able to rotate to adjacent arcs

This actually seems like a pretty good idea. Makes turrets less auto-win and brings back some decision-making into flying them. I could totally get behind this!

To be super on-flavor, the Falcon could choose two active firing arcs because it has two turrets...

I hope there isn't an Advanced Slam Device that just breaks the interesting mechanic right out of the gate.

Phantoms are just fine without free cloak tokens. SLAM ships will be too. I like when things have limitations on them in this game, having to deal with Super Dash or even post Nerf Whisper tier shenanigans in every game is getting a little irritating.

there is

it lets you do a free action if you don't overlap another ship or obstacle with your SLAM

it's one of the visible cards in the Hit Them Hard and Fast preview

That seems equivalent to Stygium, I don't think that's game breaking.