Yeah I know what you mean - part of me NEEDS an upgrade card for every instance of the upgrade, but I think I'll have to settle for having the one card represent multiple fleet upgrades if I want to use it more than once.

Not against me or in a tournament you won't. Just like playing against unpainted 40k armies, it just spoils the fun for me, save the cash, buy the ship, sell it sans upgrades.

Well I have to say, with an attitude like that I wouldn't be playing against you anyway. Nor, I think, would most people.

But why? This is the game, it is the shape it is, as decided by the people who designed it and sold it, thats the shape I want to play, not something gamers unconnected to FFG by anything other than brand loyalty want it to be.

This is the game, you need all the right bits, ships cards and tokens, or you can't play. Not playing isn;t a punishment, it's just how it is.

Your attitude is elitist and frankly, I find it unreasonable. I would not want to waste my time associating with you since I have no doubt it would be an unpleasant experience.

I do love the Internet. Thanks for your judgement!

And to me the reasoning is that tournament play is competitive and proxies are liable to affect the fairness of the game.

There's also the simple fact that the tournament rules say you can't proxy stuff. Some of us play by the rules, and make due with what we can afford rather than breaking the rules.

Tournament rules or nothing, every time. Why play any other way?

That being said, if you have found a gaming group that shares your somewhat elitist opinion and supplies you with enough people to play with, fine, be happy guys!

Expecting people to pay for their toys is elitist?

It's fairly common in the miniature gaming world to expect people to actually have the stuff they want to play with.

In 40k unpainted armies sooner or latter mean you don't get to play the game, and at one point if your Sgt didn't have a power fist no the model, you weren't allowed to play with one.. Flames of War you're expected to have Panther tank models for your Panther tanks, and not use Panzers or Shermans.

In Warmachine, you're again expected to have the correct unit, with the correct stuff and at least work on painting your stuff. Bringing a Ironclad and claiming it's a Cyclone will only get you so far, before you're expected to buy the Cyclone.

Most people are going to allow proxies for a few games to test out a list or something, but sooner or later you're expected to actually buy the toys you want to play with.

The same goes in games like MtG, so it's not just the visual part of it. You can proxy cards for a while, but sooner or later you're expected to buy them or play another deck.

The same also goes for X-Wing, in the tournament scene you're expected to have the upgrades you want. But having thought about it and the number of times I've been involved in this argument for X-Wing, and having seen all the arguments for both sides...

I realize I'd rather get into another debate about if the A-Wing is the proper scale or not.

Yes, I would consider expecting other players to buy another full expansion kit just so they may present a second copy of a card they already own an elitist opinion. I also stated very precisely where I would draw the line as to how far to take proxying, so all your nice examples from other games dont fit. Anyway, there is no need to argue, as we probably will never meet in person to play. I tend to accept the proxying of upgrade cards in a casual environment as it helps the gamers a lot, without hampering my gaming experience at all. If I sacrifice literally nothing to help another person to better enjoy the game, its a no-brainer to me.

It's not elitist, either play it how it's supposed to be played, or don't right?

It's not elitist, either play it how it's supposed to be played, or don't right?

You might find that some people have a different view on 'how it is supposed to play'.

Odd isn't it? People having a different opinion than yours?

With you being the obvious centre of the universe?

My two cents on this;

1) I'm not a huge fan of proxying cards, but we'll do it in our casual games since I have to buy all the ships. Since I don't want to buy more VSD's, we have had to proxy flight controllers so both sides could use it. It did not detract in any way from the game. If it's just an upgrade card, and its a casual game, I don't see the harm so long as it is clearly visually represented.

2) I would not be willing to proxy a ship. A substantive part of the fun I derive from the game is how visually immersive it is. It's why I bought starfield mats, and took up painting for my fighters. Plus, again, I buy all the ships in my group, so if I didn't have enough of what a friend wanted to use I would suggest to them they can buy their own fleet. Or just that ship. Either way.

3) I don't believe this is in debate, but clearly tournament rules say no proxies and IMO, thats a good thing. For the health of the game.

I hate these filthy casuals. With hardcores you know where they stand, but with casuals, who knows?

What makes a man go casual? Lust for gold? Power? Or, were they just born with a heart full of casuality?

I hate these filthy casuals. With hardcores you know where they stand, but with casuals, who knows?

What makes a man go casual? Lust for gold? Power? Or, were they just born with a heart full of casuality?

so if a man goes casual, does he become a casualty?

Yet another thread that demonstrates that this forum needs a "beating a dead horse" icon.

Ummmm . . . You do realize that the reason those ships have them is because they have the slots for them and don't overlap per faction right?

Besides, Enhanced Launchers are not as great as ACMs, point defense reroute is not as great as you think, leading shots is decent.

Now XI7's and Flight Controllers are ok. Flight controllers is just 1 extra dice, while that is good it is not an auto include for Imperials or rebels. XI7's are good to have multiple of and people do because that Nebulon-B pack comes with other good cards as well

Flight Controllers is 1 extra dice per activated squadron, and you can put it on ships that can activate 4+ squadrons. That's 4 extra dice, which is semi-equivalent to a free 13 point X-Wing per squadron command.

But why would you want a 2nd squadron oriented ship? It limits you alot on the battlefield to be mono-strategy.

Bingo! The issue I find with cards like Flight Controllers is that they are points focused on a single item. Now this sounds good but the downside is that you are less flexible. Since this game lacks an overarching meta, flexibility form list to list is vital!

You might find that some people have a different view on 'how it is supposed to play'.

It's a good thing we have a rulebook telling us how it's supposed to play then isn't it. Rather then just leave it up to people's opinions.

What you do in your house or even at the LGS with your friends is up to you all. But when you step into sanctioned tournaments, you better plan on playing by the rules as written, which includes rules about components.

Well, personally, I like to print out my lists. It saves critical table space and improves organization, which is a non-trivial issue with a play area this big. (Card organization at the edge of the table, tokens getting mixed in, etc)

This is an amazing Idea! Doing this from now on.

It's not elitist, either play it how it's supposed to be played, or don't right?

You might find that some people have a different view on 'how it is supposed to play'.

Odd isn't it? People having a different opinion than yours?

With you being the obvious centre of the universe?

Well, personally, I like to print out my lists. It saves critical table space and improves organization, which is a non-trivial issue with a play area this big. (Card organization at the edge of the table, tokens getting mixed in, etc)

This is an amazing Idea! Doing this from now on.

Not in any tournament..., or any games against me

It's not elitist, either play it how it's supposed to be played, or don't right?

You might find that some people have a different view on 'how it is supposed to play'.

Odd isn't it? People having a different opinion than yours?

With you being the obvious centre of the universe?

I have literally no idea why you would think that I think my opinion is the only one - it's subjective and I've never said anything else. My game, my rules (well FFG) your game, any old made up rules you like. 4 tins of beans is the Death Star and this spoon is admiral thrawns bum

But...there is no spoon...

It's not elitist, either play it how it's supposed to be played, or don't right?

You might find that some people have a different view on 'how it is supposed to play'.

Odd isn't it? People having a different opinion than yours?

With you being the obvious centre of the universe?

I have literally no idea why you would think that I think my opinion is the only one - it's subjective and I've never said anything else. My game, my rules (well FFG) your game, any old made up rules you like. 4 tins of beans is the Death Star and this spoon is admiral thrawns bum

But...there is no spoon...

Just proxy the spoon with a dish.

Now; your 'tin cans and spoon'. Hold yer strawman horses.

We were talking proxying the odd upgrade card in casual gameplay.

Not proxying ships with tin cans or anything else for that matter.

You could even read me posting that earlier on.

Without any irony or sarcasm and trying to be 100% clear:

I think your position 'it is in the rules so you must follow them' is silly for casual play.

As long as there is a clear and legal list with ships and upgrade cards I am happy to play a person.

He/she still needs the ships though. I'd not play my ships against tin cans or cardboard thank you very much.

Now. Feel free to think differently and lets agree to disagree.

I enjoy the game my way. I hope you enjoy your games your way.

Yet another thread that demonstrates that this forum needs a "beating a dead horse" icon.

Wouldn't that be deserving of its own dead horse icon?

As for the topic at hand, don't let me tell you how to have fun.

I wonder if this discussion about proxies is impacted at all by each persons history of gaming. Coming from a role-playing background myself, I tend to view all hobby games as having an unspoken "these rules are all just guidelines, and players should feel free to do whatever they mutually agree on to increase their enjoyment" clause covering house rules, proxies and so on.

I wonder if this discussion about proxies is impacted at all by each persons history of gaming.

that's actually a very good point, and worth responding to.

You're right, if you come to it from a RPG stance then rules are there for no other purpose than to assist in the narrative and give everyone a common frame of reference to start with.

But if you're a MtG player, then you're going to be more of the opinion that proxies are there for testing a new concept out, but not something you should continue to use, once you know how the deck will work.

You go into most LGS with a MtG or LCG deck filled with proxies, you'll find it's only accepted for so long before you're expected to pay for what you're using.

In miniature games proxies are treated much the same way. It's fine if you're trying something out, but isn't something you should plan on doing long term. In some games they even take it a step farther, and expect you to play by WYSIWYG. So if my list has a unit with upgrade X, it's expected that the model will actually have that upgrade on it. For example at one point in 40k, if your list has space marine sgt's with powerfists, those models needed to have powerfists on them. There's also a very real expectation that you will work on getting your whole list painted.

So that attitude I guess tends to carry over to X-Wing and Armada at least for those of us who played tabletop miniature games. If you want to use upgrade X, Y and 2x Z, you need to have those upgrade cards, or at least be trying to find them.

I wonder if this discussion about proxies is impacted at all by each persons history of gaming. Coming from a role-playing background myself, I tend to view all hobby games as having an unspoken "these rules are all just guidelines, and players should feel free to do whatever they mutually agree on to increase their enjoyment" clause covering house rules, proxies and so on.

I would say that my position on it is largely informed by the fact that I didn't have a great deal of money when I was younger and first discovered wargaming and would not have been able to get into the hobby if I wasn't allowed to swap a few models around. I believe I can realistically say I would not have got into it if people around me had had the attitude that Tetsugaku had.

I wonder if this discussion about proxies is impacted at all by each persons history of gaming. Coming from a role-playing background myself, I tend to view all hobby games as having an unspoken "these rules are all just guidelines, and players should feel free to do whatever they mutually agree on to increase their enjoyment" clause covering house rules, proxies and so on.

Of course. My childhood game (although I didn't play it all that much) was Battletech, and you better believe I eagerly proxied the hell out of lots of mechs. I mean, the mechs in the starter box were cardboard cutouts, so it's not like I was doing anything too nuts in terms of aesthetics. I think I did end up with five or six minis, all Clan mechs, but lord knows if they're still in a box somewhere.

I wonder if this discussion about proxies is impacted at all by each persons history of gaming.

So that attitude I guess tends to carry over to X-Wing and Armada at least for those of us who played tabletop miniature games. If you want to use upgrade X, Y and 2x Z, you need to have those upgrade cards, or at least be trying to find them.

My attitude, from a long history of playing wargames, is that the upgrade cards are rules, much the same as a page or paragraph in a rulebook or codex.

It should be totally acceptable for a player to write a pen and paper list, with their upgrades and their costs noted. Then, if something is queried, a player should be able to provide a legitimate copy of the rules for that unit and all of it's upgrades.

For instance, if I want to use Intelligence Officer on two ships, but I only have one card, that would be fine because it is noted which ships have the upgrade, and I have the rules available so I know how that upgrade works.

As far as I'm concerned, that's not even proxying. I have all the relevant playing pieces and I have all the relevant rules.

I wonder if this discussion about proxies is impacted at all by each persons history of gaming.

that's actually a very good point, and worth responding to.You're right, if you come to it from a RPG stance then rules are there for no other purpose than to assist in the narrative and give everyone a common frame of reference to start with.But if you're a MtG player, then you're going to be more of the opinion that proxies are there for testing a new concept out, but not something you should continue to use, once you know how the deck will work.You go into most LGS with a MtG or LCG deck filled with proxies, you'll find it's only accepted for so long before you're expected to pay for what you're using.In miniature games proxies are treated much the same way. It's fine if you're trying something out, but isn't something you should plan on doing long term. In some games they even take it a step farther, and expect you to play by WYSIWYG. So if my list has a unit with upgrade X, it's expected that the model will actually have that upgrade on it. For example at one point in 40k, if your list has space marine sgt's with powerfists, those models needed to have powerfists on them. There's also a very real expectation that you will work on getting your whole list painted.So that attitude I guess tends to carry over to X-Wing and Armada at least for those of us who played tabletop miniature games. If you want to use upgrade X, Y and 2x Z, you need to have those upgrade cards, or at least be trying to find them.

I agree and disagree with this. Very few opponents are ever going to care if you proxy land cards or a common here or there even if it's indefinite. For the most part peoples patience with proxying is inversely proportional to the value of the card(s) they are proxying. Even within MTG this tends to be true.

In what manner would a player proxying an upgrade card for a casual game in any way impact your ability to have fun. I can somewhat understand the unpainted army issue, as it detracts from the visual appeal of the game, but in what way would this be of any consequence to you?

I suppose you won't play with someone that has unpainted squadrons either.

To those of us who save up and get multiple ships for the cards or scour eBay and the like, who trade and go through the process. Your proxies sort of kill that feeling.

As someone who buys multiple ships, scours eBay and trades I can’t for the life of me see why that is. What kills the feeling is someone that won’t play because the other player doesn’t have what they have. In tournament yes no proxy allowed, other than that, it’s just silly.

Hmm, question:

How do you feel about some new guy using core set fighters, and saying one is Luke, and another is wedge. Even if he does not have the wedge card, but has a wiki page or printout of it nearby for referce.

It still is an X-wing squadron with the hero dial side flipped face up.

Would it detract from your gameplay and force you to leave, knowing, that in the back of your mind... its not Wedge...