If I was at an actual tourney, I would expect my opponent to have the actual cards. I wouldn't be averse to loaning a card out, as long as I'm not using it, but I definitely would frown on proxying anything at a tourney.

Now a friendly game, hey no issue.

My local gaming group is pretty tight, so upgrade cards and such get traded around fairly often. We all want to support the game and buy whatever, but we've also seen that FFG isn't above putting a desirable card in an expensive, luxury buy (*cough*Tantive4*cough*) so we tend to extend a lot of leniency when it comes to cards.

The idea that it's unethical to proxy cards in casual games is totally absurd.

In what manner would a player proxying an upgrade card for a casual game in any way impact your ability to have fun. I can somewhat understand the unpainted army issue, as it detracts from the visual appeal of the game, but in what way would this be of any consequence to you?

I suppose you won't play with someone that has unpainted squadrons either.

To those of us who save up and get multiple ships for the cards or scour eBay and the like, who trade and go through the process. Your proxies sort of kill that feeling.

Yes, but proxying the cards themselves? It seems overly-harsh to discriminate against someone for having "Engine Techs" written on a business card next to their ship card. Armada is a very expensive game.

Edit: Perhaps we are talking about two separate issues. If someone downloads rules that they haven't bought and makes their own cards, I can sera the objection to that. I'm talking about the scenario where someone runs out of Gunnery Team or somesuch.

Yes, but proxying the cards themselves? It seems overly-harsh to discriminate against someone for having "Engine Techs" written on a business card next to their ship card. Armada is a very expensive game.

Edit: Perhaps we are talking about two separate issues. If someone downloads rules that they haven't bought and makes their own cards, I can sera the objection to that. I'm talking about the scenario where someone runs out of Gunnery Team or somesuch.

If the proxies are for testing and casual purposes, I am all fine for them. It's when people continue to do so time and time again. At that point, save the money or ask to trade or buy the card from someone who has extra.

The idea that it's unethical to proxy cards in casual games is totally absurd.

Is it really? Why? It's a paid game, that has certain rules, which we all subscribe to when we want to play, you're not forced to play the game, you have the choice right?

In what manner would a player proxying an upgrade card for a casual game in any way impact your ability to have fun. I can somewhat understand the unpainted army issue, as it detracts from the visual appeal of the game, but in what way would this be of any consequence to you?

I suppose you won't play with someone that has unpainted squadrons either.

To those of us who save up and get multiple ships for the cards or scour eBay and the like, who trade and go through the process. Your proxies sort of kill that feeling.

Yes, but proxying the cards themselves? It seems overly-harsh to discriminate against someone for having "Engine Techs" written on a business card next to their ship card. Armada is a very expensive game.

Edit: Perhaps we are talking about two separate issues. If someone downloads rules that they haven't bought and makes their own cards, I can sera the objection to that. I'm talking about the scenario where someone runs out of Gunnery Team or somesuch.

It may be expensive (for some, obviously that's very subjective) but why does that matter? You're not forced to play the game, why is it so much hassle to buy the right parts?

The idea that it's unethical to proxy cards in casual games is totally absurd.

Is it really? Why? It's a paid game, that has certain rules, which we all subscribe to when we want to play, you're not forced to play the game, you have the choice right?

Having registered my objection to your worldview, I have the choice to not engage with you further.

The idea that it's unethical to proxy cards in casual games is totally absurd.

Is it really? Why? It's a paid game, that has certain rules, which we all subscribe to when we want to play, you're not forced to play the game, you have the choice right?

Can you imagine people choosing to not care and allow proxies too?

I can.

(nope; would not try to proxy stuff at tournaments myself. But would shrug and allow my opponent to have a copied card of somesuch. As long as the list is legal and models are correct I do not care.)

The idea that it's unethical to proxy cards in casual games is totally absurd.

Is it really? Why? It's a paid game, that has certain rules, which we all subscribe to when we want to play, you're not forced to play the game, you have the choice right?

Can you imagine people choosing to not care and allow proxies too?

I can.

(nope; would not try to proxy stuff at tournaments myself. But would shrug and allow my opponent to have a copied card of somesuch. As long as the list is legal and models are correct I do not care.)

I can too.

If your the type of person who gets upset about proxy cards in a casual game. Than that's on you.

If your the type of person who has to go and buy every card for every ship to feel good about yourself that's on you too.

Most people play a game to have fun.

Yeah I know what you mean - part of me NEEDS an upgrade card for every instance of the upgrade, but I think I'll have to settle for having the one card represent multiple fleet upgrades if I want to use it more than once.

Not against me or in a tournament you won't. Just like playing against unpainted 40k armies, it just spoils the fun for me, save the cash, buy the ship, sell it sans upgrades.

Well I have to say, with an attitude like that I wouldn't be playing against you anyway. Nor, I think, would most people.

In what manner would a player proxying an upgrade card for a casual game in any way impact your ability to have fun. I can somewhat understand the unpainted army issue, as it detracts from the visual appeal of the game, but in what way would this be of any consequence to you?

I suppose you won't play with someone that has unpainted squadrons either.

To those of us who save up and get multiple ships for the cards or scour eBay and the like, who trade and go through the process. Your proxies sort of kill that feeling.

Yes, but proxying the cards themselves? It seems overly-harsh to discriminate against someone for having "Engine Techs" written on a business card next to their ship card. Armada is a very expensive game.

Edit: Perhaps we are talking about two separate issues. If someone downloads rules that they haven't bought and makes their own cards, I can sera the objection to that. I'm talking about the scenario where someone runs out of Gunnery Team or somesuch.

It may be expensive (for some, obviously that's very subjective) but why does that matter? You're not forced to play the game, why is it so much hassle to buy the right parts?

It matters because most of us try to minimize the differences caused by wealth inequality. We may not want to play against bits of cardboard with "VSD II" written on them and that's fine, it' starting to detract from our enjoyment and taken to extreme undermines FFG's profits. But most of us are fine with someone writing "Engine Techs" on some business cards rather than buying an extra core set, or occasionally saying "this is a B-Wing" rather than buy a whole extra pack of fighters for it, so long as they go to the effort of making it clear somehow with a little flag or whatever. Basically, most of us try to be understanding about whether someone can buy a product or not.

I have to agree with another poster. With the lack of empathy for other people's situations that you show, I would not want to play with you either.

For casual play: it should be perfectly fine to make proxy cards.

For tournament play: not so much.

For casual play: it should be perfectly fine to make proxy cards.

For tournament play: not so much.

And to me the reasoning is that tournament play is competitive and proxies are liable to affect the fairness of the game. Whilst they may not, it is hard to draw a distinction between the person turning up with "Engine Techs" written clearly on some card and the one who turns up with a heap of jumbled scraps of paper or a Corvette that they occasionally mutter is actually a Nebulon-B; or when you're facing an opponent who wont be distracted by these things or the opponent who has enough to deal with already and doesn't notice that the bit of hand-written card next to your ship is actually an Upgrade.

So whilst it's a shame that cost becomes more of a factor in tournament play, it is eminently understandable. But outside of tournaments, a bit of proxying seems like a good thing for the sake of letting everybody play.

I tend to just see limited upgrade cards as a sort of challenge: a commander rarely has every resource at his disposal after all. But then again I'm coming from a wargaming perspective.

In what manner would a player proxying an upgrade card for a casual game in any way impact your ability to have fun. I can somewhat understand the unpainted army issue, as it detracts from the visual appeal of the game, but in what way would this be of any consequence to you?

I suppose you won't play with someone that has unpainted squadrons either.

To those of us who save up and get multiple ships for the cards or scour eBay and the like, who trade and go through the process. Your proxies sort of kill that feeling.

Yes, but proxying the cards themselves? It seems overly-harsh to discriminate against someone for having "Engine Techs" written on a business card next to their ship card. Armada is a very expensive game.

Edit: Perhaps we are talking about two separate issues. If someone downloads rules that they haven't bought and makes their own cards, I can sera the objection to that. I'm talking about the scenario where someone runs out of Gunnery Team or somesuch.

It may be expensive (for some, obviously that's very subjective) but why does that matter? You're not forced to play the game, why is it so much hassle to buy the right parts?

It matters because most of us try to minimize the differences caused by wealth inequality. We may not want to play against bits of cardboard with "VSD II" written on them and that's fine, it' starting to detract from our enjoyment and taken to extreme undermines FFG's profits. But most of us are fine with someone writing "Engine Techs" on some business cards rather than buying an extra core set, or occasionally saying "this is a B-Wing" rather than buy a whole extra pack of fighters for it, so long as they go to the effort of making it clear somehow with a little flag or whatever. Basically, most of us try to be understanding about whether someone can buy a product or not.

I have to agree with another poster. With the lack of empathy for other people's situations that you show, I would not want to play with you either.

Thats not a lack of empathy - I just don't see why gamers think playing is a right? Buy the bits, use those, or don't play, easy right?

Yeah I know what you mean - part of me NEEDS an upgrade card for every instance of the upgrade, but I think I'll have to settle for having the one card represent multiple fleet upgrades if I want to use it more than once.

Not against me or in a tournament you won't. Just like playing against unpainted 40k armies, it just spoils the fun for me, save the cash, buy the ship, sell it sans upgrades.

Well I have to say, with an attitude like that I wouldn't be playing against you anyway. Nor, I think, would most people.

But why? This is the game, it is the shape it is, as decided by the people who designed it and sold it, thats the shape I want to play, not something gamers unconnected to FFG by anything other than brand loyalty want it to be.

This is the game, you need all the right bits, ships cards and tokens, or you can't play. Not playing isn;t a punishment, it's just how it is.

Ummmm . . . You do realize that the reason those ships have them is because they have the slots for them and don't overlap per faction right?

Besides, Enhanced Launchers are not as great as ACMs, point defense reroute is not as great as you think, leading shots is decent.

Now XI7's and Flight Controllers are ok. Flight controllers is just 1 extra dice, while that is good it is not an auto include for Imperials or rebels. XI7's are good to have multiple of and people do because that Nebulon-B pack comes with other good cards as well

Flight Controllers is 1 extra dice per activated squadron, and you can put it on ships that can activate 4+ squadrons. That's 4 extra dice, which is semi-equivalent to a free 13 point X-Wing per squadron command.

But why would you want a 2nd squadron oriented ship? It limits you alot on the battlefield to be mono-strategy.

Yeah I know what you mean - part of me NEEDS an upgrade card for every instance of the upgrade, but I think I'll have to settle for having the one card represent multiple fleet upgrades if I want to use it more than once.

Not against me or in a tournament you won't. Just like playing against unpainted 40k armies, it just spoils the fun for me, save the cash, buy the ship, sell it sans upgrades.

Well I have to say, with an attitude like that I wouldn't be playing against you anyway. Nor, I think, would most people.

But why? This is the game, it is the shape it is, as decided by the people who designed it and sold it, thats the shape I want to play, not something gamers unconnected to FFG by anything other than brand loyalty want it to be.

This is the game, you need all the right bits, ships cards and tokens, or you can't play. Not playing isn;t a punishment, it's just how it is.

Your attitude is elitist and frankly, I find it unreasonable. I would not want to waste my time associating with you since I have no doubt it would be an unpleasant experience.

In what manner would a player proxying an upgrade card for a casual game in any way impact your ability to have fun. I can somewhat understand the unpainted army issue, as it detracts from the visual appeal of the game, but in what way would this be of any consequence to you?

I suppose you won't play with someone that has unpainted squadrons either.

To those of us who save up and get multiple ships for the cards or scour eBay and the like, who trade and go through the process. Your proxies sort of kill that feeling.

Yes, but proxying the cards themselves? It seems overly-harsh to discriminate against someone for having "Engine Techs" written on a business card next to their ship card. Armada is a very expensive game.

Edit: Perhaps we are talking about two separate issues. If someone downloads rules that they haven't bought and makes their own cards, I can sera the objection to that. I'm talking about the scenario where someone runs out of Gunnery Team or somesuch.

It may be expensive (for some, obviously that's very subjective) but why does that matter? You're not forced to play the game, why is it so much hassle to buy the right parts?

It matters because most of us try to minimize the differences caused by wealth inequality. We may not want to play against bits of cardboard with "VSD II" written on them and that's fine, it' starting to detract from our enjoyment and taken to extreme undermines FFG's profits. But most of us are fine with someone writing "Engine Techs" on some business cards rather than buying an extra core set, or occasionally saying "this is a B-Wing" rather than buy a whole extra pack of fighters for it, so long as they go to the effort of making it clear somehow with a little flag or whatever. Basically, most of us try to be understanding about whether someone can buy a product or not.

I have to agree with another poster. With the lack of empathy for other people's situations that you show, I would not want to play with you either.

Thats not a lack of empathy - I just don't see why gamers think playing is a right? Buy the bits, use those, or don't play, easy right?

Its all a question of proportionality - most players tend to accept a proxy'd card, as it does not have any impact on the playing experience. Likewise, most players tend to not accept a box of matches with a 'VSD' post-it as a proxy for the modell, as it greatly reduces the visual fun of the game. Your position towards this seems unreasonably harsh to me, and the same was stated by any other person on this forum who decided to reply so far. You might consider the fact that you not only need the bits to play the game, but other people to game with as well. As with all things that involve interaction with other human beings, a tiny bit of proportionality might help a great bit, where being a narrow-minded dogmatist might not.

That being said, if you have found a gaming group that shares your somewhat elitist opinion and supplies you with enough people to play with, fine, be happy guys!

And to me the reasoning is that tournament play is competitive and proxies are liable to affect the fairness of the game.

There's also the simple fact that the tournament rules say you can't proxy stuff. Some of us play by the rules, and make due with what we can afford rather than breaking the rules.

That being said, if you have found a gaming group that shares your somewhat elitist opinion and supplies you with enough people to play with, fine, be happy guys!

Expecting people to pay for their toys is elitist?

It's fairly common in the miniature gaming world to expect people to actually have the stuff they want to play with.

In 40k unpainted armies sooner or latter mean you don't get to play the game, and at one point if your Sgt didn't have a power fist no the model, you weren't allowed to play with one.. Flames of War you're expected to have Panther tank models for your Panther tanks, and not use Panzers or Shermans.

In Warmachine, you're again expected to have the correct unit, with the correct stuff and at least work on painting your stuff. Bringing a Ironclad and claiming it's a Cyclone will only get you so far, before you're expected to buy the Cyclone.

Most people are going to allow proxies for a few games to test out a list or something, but sooner or later you're expected to actually buy the toys you want to play with.

The same goes in games like MtG, so it's not just the visual part of it. You can proxy cards for a while, but sooner or later you're expected to buy them or play another deck.

The same also goes for X-Wing, in the tournament scene you're expected to have the upgrades you want. But having thought about it and the number of times I've been involved in this argument for X-Wing, and having seen all the arguments for both sides...

I realize I'd rather get into another debate about if the A-Wing is the proper scale or not.

I do think we can get a bit excessive about proxying in either direction

proxying actual models is a hell and a half, because it only makes games less engaging (I'll shoot at the thing that's really another thing | this hummel is really a panther that's why it's on the front lines eating your tanks | this IG sarge with a lasgun actually has a powerfist so your marine goes splat | this nebulon B is actually a gladiator that's why it's zooming around in your face and launching missiles) and more confusing (wait...what's what now!?)

but proxying little cards? That's as easy as writing down the information and informing your opponent + getting his/her consent. In Armada, the upgrades are not being represented on the model so really the look on the table is completely unchanged.

casual games really should not be anal about these little oversights. Competitive games are another matter

That being said, if you have found a gaming group that shares your somewhat elitist opinion and supplies you with enough people to play with, fine, be happy guys!

Expecting people to pay for their toys is elitist?

It's fairly common in the miniature gaming world to expect people to actually have the stuff they want to play with.

In 40k unpainted armies sooner or latter mean you don't get to play the game, and at one point if your Sgt didn't have a power fist no the model, you weren't allowed to play with one.. Flames of War you're expected to have Panther tank models for your Panther tanks, and not use Panzers or Shermans.

In Warmachine, you're again expected to have the correct unit, with the correct stuff and at least work on painting your stuff. Bringing a Ironclad and claiming it's a Cyclone will only get you so far, before you're expected to buy the Cyclone.

Most people are going to allow proxies for a few games to test out a list or something, but sooner or later you're expected to actually buy the toys you want to play with.

The same goes in games like MtG, so it's not just the visual part of it. You can proxy cards for a while, but sooner or later you're expected to buy them or play another deck.

The same also goes for X-Wing, in the tournament scene you're expected to have the upgrades you want. But having thought about it and the number of times I've been involved in this argument for X-Wing, and having seen all the arguments for both sides...

I realize I'd rather get into another debate about if the A-Wing is the proper scale or not.

Yes, I would consider expecting other players to buy another full expansion kit just so they may present a second copy of a card they already own an elitist opinion. I also stated very precisely where I would draw the line as to how far to take proxying, so all your nice examples from other games dont fit. Anyway, there is no need to argue, as we probably will never meet in person to play. I tend to accept the proxying of upgrade cards in a casual environment as it helps the gamers a lot, without hampering my gaming experience at all. If I sacrifice literally nothing to help another person to better enjoy the game, its a no-brainer to me.

That being said, if you have found a gaming group that shares your somewhat elitist opinion and supplies you with enough people to play with, fine, be happy guys!

Expecting people to pay for their toys is elitist?

It's fairly common in the miniature gaming world to expect people to actually have the stuff they want to play with.

In 40k unpainted armies sooner or latter mean you don't get to play the game, and at one point if your Sgt didn't have a power fist no the model, you weren't allowed to play with one.. Flames of War you're expected to have Panther tank models for your Panther tanks, and not use Panzers or Shermans.

In Warmachine, you're again expected to have the correct unit, with the correct stuff and at least work on painting your stuff. Bringing a Ironclad and claiming it's a Cyclone will only get you so far, before you're expected to buy the Cyclone.

Most people are going to allow proxies for a few games to test out a list or something, but sooner or later you're expected to actually buy the toys you want to play with.

The same goes in games like MtG, so it's not just the visual part of it. You can proxy cards for a while, but sooner or later you're expected to buy them or play another deck.

The same also goes for X-Wing, in the tournament scene you're expected to have the upgrades you want. But having thought about it and the number of times I've been involved in this argument for X-Wing, and having seen all the arguments for both sides...

I realize I'd rather get into another debate about if the A-Wing is the proper scale or not.

Except what is actually happening with situations like:

You caannot run a I7 in your Empire fleet because you did not but that Rebel ship.

Is less close to your above examples and closer to:

You cannot run a plasma gun on your space marine squad because you did not buy the eldar gardian box it comes with.

The difference is 40K allows you to make your own plasma gun from scratch as long as it looks like one.