I feel like this squad would still be very powerful, and that while the phantom nerf is great, I find much of the nerf's effect to be psychological. The shenanigans are still pretty stupid tier.

Are dual IG's just a better version of this? Have turrets taken over so much that the Phantom players have just given up? IMO I think a lot of people hear that the Phantom has been nerfed and immediately write it off even though it's still OP.

Double Phantom was kind of hardcore scissors. There don't seem to be that many paper builds around for them to autowin against anymore, and rock builds are so prevalent now.

I don't think you can undersell the loss of the arc-dodge that this build suffered.

With the introduction of Autothruster Fel and Dual IG-88s right when the nerf hit, I can see why the Phantoms fled.

They'll come back when there's less Pic and Gorc in the meta. Dual Phantom eats Dual Aggressor alive.

That list can still compete and a few 2 phantom + names Tie lists have done very well.

Turrets aren't really a big deal because there are less ps9-11 turrets than the wave 5 ps war.

Fel is what's holding them back.

How does the standard 35-36 point Fel do against super Phantoms? Haven't seen the two matched against each other.

How does the standard 35-36 point Fel do against super Phantoms? Haven't seen the two matched against each other.

if he shoots before them, pretty **** well

if he shoots after, wheee~ arcdodge

going to need a lot of practice blocking that ******* before gunning him down, which may make it a good idea to put a crappy little tie alongside the phantoms (or just use soontir too)

I think they are fine. But that's just me.

It happens that I forget to decloak ... yeah I'm an old man.

so I havn't use Phantoms in competitive environment since.

I would need more training sessions with Phantoms just to learn to not forget decloaking.

Phantoms took a severe nerf. =/ They're still good, but the reason they were good for GREAT players is the capacity to do things at the latest time, the arc dodging.

Nowadays you see that Ints are again the arc dodge kings.

Phantoms are actually a lot more predictable now. Also, mass turrets are excellent vs Phantoms.

I don't see why no one is upset over the fact that nobody plays Phantoms anymore. Wave4 is ded. Ded to turretz. Wave5.

and wave whatever, the super falcon counts as.

I think they're still about as good as before, it's just that other similar options are now better than them because of autothrusters.

I think the generics have got a lot more useable, but I'm less sure about the named pilots - if taking Phantoms, I'd be happier with three of them - although that may just be my paranoia talking.

How does the standard 35-36 point Fel do against super Phantoms? Haven't seen the two matched against each other.

if he shoots before them, pretty **** well

if he shoots after, wheee~ arcdodge

going to need a lot of practice blocking that ******* before gunning him down, which may make it a good idea to put a crappy little tie alongside the phantoms (or just use soontir too)

My limited experience has been the exact opposite. Granted I've only had 4 games playing as Whisper vs. Fel. 3 matches Fel had PtL + AT + SD and one I can't remember if he had hull or shield instead of stealth...

I was flying a Gunner + FCS whisper, and in one match Whisper one-shotted Fel. The other three, she managed to put a damage through his token stack (although one game she missed the first two shots but got him in arc again later on and one-shotted him). It was not hard for Whisper to finish off Fel once one damage got through and turned off stealth. So it seems to me 4 attack + Gunner + FCS hard counters 4 greens w/ 2 focus + evade.

Fwiw, I gave up initiative in 3 games and took it once and took minimal damage in return on Whisper. Fel at best was able to knock off 2 of whisper's shields on one occasion.

So I'm just not seeing Fel as being tough for Whisper, although manoeuvring is everything with that kind of matchup, so YMMV of course.

Echo would probably get pwned by Fel, but he's pretty slippery on his own, and you can use Whisper to protect him...

Phantoms took a severe nerf. =/ They're still good, but the reason they were good for GREAT players is the capacity to do things at the latest time, the arc dodging.

Nowadays you see that Ints are again the arc dodge kings.

Phantoms are actually a lot more predictable now. Also, mass turrets are excellent vs Phantoms.

I don't see why no one is upset over the fact that nobody plays Phantoms anymore. Wave4 is ded. Ded to turretz. Wave5.

Because the generics weren't harmed as much by the Nerf since they were typically decloaking before everything else anyways, and one of the things a generic phantom had a lot of trouble with were super phantoms, so it ended up being a stealth buff to the generics. The generics seem to be how they're meant to be played, cloaking manually, using cheap crew like Intel Agent, using stygium. The generics are well balanced and the cloak mechanic adds a lot to the game when there are actual consequences to using it.

Just because you can't autowin with a 44 point buzzsaw whisper against 72+ points of ties anymore doesn't mean they're suddenly bad.

decloacking before is not a nerf, it honestly made the phantom better because now it is harder for people to block you in and keep you from decloacking

decloacking before is not a nerf, it honestly made the phantom better because now it is harder for people to block you in and keep you from decloacking

"Better" is entirely too vague to truly define how the nerf affected the phantom

at the very least it made the phantom harder to fly, since it's basically shifted almost entirely from reactionary "oh well, you moved here so I guess I just have to decloak to this direction and **** you" to having to predict what the board state will be like.

blocking a pre errata decloak was no easy task unless the opponent was particularly obliging about parking near obstructions and then you still often needed 2 ships to do

I don't know why I clicked a PGS thread with "Phantom" in the title.

decloacking before is not a nerf, it honestly made the phantom better because now it is harder for people to block you in and keep you from decloacking

Decloaking as you reveal the dial is definitely better than at the start of activation phase because it takes your pilot skill into account. You can't react to other's movements as well as you could pre-nerf.

It does give other advantages now, such as being able to decloak even if you're ionized but it just isn't as strong because you're predicting rather than reacting.

Phantoms have been in 4 winning Regionals lists.

• Rear Admiral Chiraneau + Whisper (50 players)
• Whisper + Fel + Mauler Mithel (75 players)
• Whisper + Echo + Academy (28 players)
• Whisper + Howlrunner + 3 Academies (45 players)

Phantoms have been in 4 winning Regionals lists.

• Rear Admiral Chiraneau + Whisper (50 players)
• Whisper + Fel + Mauler Mithel (75 players)
• Whisper + Echo + Academy (28 players)
• Whisper + Howlrunner + 3 Academies (45 players)

• Classic Pic and Gorc
• 86 point Phantom + Tie variant (Bloody Baron for Echo)
• 86 point phantom + Tie
• Phantom + Miniswarm

Some of these are more surprising than others, to me.

Phantoms have been in 4 winning Regionals lists.

• Rear Admiral Chiraneau + Whisper (50 players)
• Whisper + Fel + Mauler Mithel (75 players)
• Whisper + Echo + Academy (28 players)
• Whisper + Howlrunner + 3 Academies (45 players)

bolded list should win just for showing up with Mithel

that little tie is such a badass

Phantoms have been in 4 winning Regionals lists.

• Rear Admiral Chiraneau + Whisper (50 players)
• Whisper + Fel + Mauler Mithel (75 players)
• Whisper + Echo + Academy (28 players)
• Whisper + Howlrunner + 3 Academies (45 players)

bolded list should win just for showing up with Mithel

that little tie is such a badass

He's a badass at range 1; everywhere else he's a really expensive academy, and that is sadness.

decloacking before is not a nerf, it honestly made the phantom better because now it is harder for people to block you in and keep you from decloacking

As stated Phantoms are harder to fly now. Rather than reacting to where your opponent is you have to guess. Short of omniscience, you will occasionally guess wrong, sometimes with severe consequences. To argue that Phantoms are better now is pretty ridiculous and reeks of vanity. "If you think it's a nerf you suck L2 fly nub"

Double

The 86 is probably dead, if only because post-FAQ Phantoms would get enough value from the additional positional control a 12 point TIE can offer to make it worthwhile to include in the list. Rather than react to an opponents moves with the decloak, you would now use decloak movement and a blocking TIE to cut off particular moves.

The core of the list remains very viable, however, and Six Sigma has become slightly MORE powerful than it was pre-FAQ, dropping Enhanced Scopes to upgrade Echo to buzzsaw Whisper. All 3 Phantoms can now participate in the blocking game, and do so even against low PS ships.

Phantoms have been in 4 winning Regionals lists.

• Rear Admiral Chiraneau + Whisper (50 players)
• Whisper + Fel + Mauler Mithel (75 players)
• Whisper + Echo + Academy (28 players)
• Whisper + Howlrunner + 3 Academies (45 players)

bolded list should win just for showing up with Mithel

that little tie is such a badass

I always want to run Mauler over Backstabber but I'm always one point short. That list is pretty nifty, would help to shunt Rebel Captive.

Besides, Echo always died first in 86 double phantom, soontir is probably better. 86 double phantom would kind of sweep the turret escort and then usually autolose to the turret, Soontir should give you a little more staying power.

The only times I ever played the pre-Nerf super phantom was in the 86 point variant. I like novelty/troll lists, so having a competitive list with a 14 point initiative bid was enough to make me want to play it a few times. You'd simply autowin against anything that wasn't a turret, and then when you'd face a turret you'd sweep the escorts, lose Echo, then lose Whisper with the turret at 2/3rds health, it was dumb lol.