Since I believe that soon everything will be back in print for this game, I'm going to go forward with it but I have questions.

The biggest is that I don't know whether to keep my 4th Edition and then buy the upgrade or to buy a revised 4th.

After that purchase, what should I get next?

Thanks

If you have a chance, you should buy the complete 4th ed. "revised" from FFG. I originally bought 4E by Black Industries and am quite happy with it, since I prefer tokens and "standees" for character pieces. But many here prefer the miniatures and "cones" (in place of tokens) that come with 4ER.

If like me, you're happen with the equipment you have, and are willing to download some board patchs (from Talismanisland.com) to change some the spaces on the 4E board, then do so. But as of now, I don't believe the "Upgrade" pack has been re-printed.

After that, the Reaper expansion has a bunch of new cards for the main Adventure deck. I personally don't have any interest in the Reaper NPC itself, but for expanding you base game, this would be the best of the two expansions. The Dungeon expansion includes a board, one for the four "realm" boards that may be reissued, but does not expand the base game as much as the Reaper pack. You may also wish to consider Frostmarch, which is also an expansion of the base game itself.

Considering that sclapers are getting $100+ for the upgrade pack the revised 4th ed would probably be your best bet at this point.

rapatpamp said:

For now, definitely. But let's hope those upgrade packs come available again soon for other reasons as well.

I agree with JC.

My advice is to buy the 4th revised edition.

Then you have everything complete

Upgrade pack does not have the cones, and you also miss the new text on the board

The board from FFG is also bigger

Velhart said:

One of the reasons Upgrade > R4th. If you play it by the book, your Strength takes calculating (or plain memory I suppose) each and every time "okay, so starting value + cones + followers + objects...". If you add everything together with the BI counters, you can see the actual score all the time. With more players, I think you'll run out of cones if you'd do that with R4th.

Dam said:

With more players, I think you'll run out of cones if you'd do that with R4th.

I have played several games with 5 and 6 players. When we first started to play we didn't use the cones on the objects and followers and it was a mess trying to keep track of the different values. Now we always use the the cones on the objects and followers for counting purposes. Came close once to running out of red 1's but never the 5's. I have counters standing by from other games just in case we need to change in some 5's. To me it's just unneeded micro-management and slows the game down not using the cones on everything.

My goodness... you guys can't be that math challenged. In our games, the more players, the more objects and followers can come and go, so constantly adjusting tokens or cones gets ridiculous. Plus the cones aren't clear at quick glance anyway. In addition, if other players can't see all of your follower and object bonuses at quick glance, too bad. That's the way it should be. Let them get stupid when they think I've got a strength of 5 or 6 and attack me... and then I start adding up the bonuses. Other adventurers shouldn't always know all the possible bonuses you have beyond a the count of a standard attribute. It makes things more interesting when they realize... "uh, oh!"

JCHendee said:

Yeah, that's true, but if i attack a other player, then i want to know how strong he is..

Velhart said:

Agreed. Not sure why anyone would move & attack someone without first looking over the person's weapons/objects/followers, especially when that stuff is definitely supposed to be public knowledge. I know I would never do that.

The point is they shoudn't be able to look over them... its the adventurers in the game that should set the perspective, not the players acting like omniscient gods. If the Prophetess is the only one who gets to look your spells, then why are you letting everyone else look at your stuff? Tsk, tsk, why would you want them to be able to do that? Bait them into a stupid choice when you secretly have the upper hand. The only equipment we require to be face up is anything that is on the character itself and any Followers in plain sight (under some conditions they might not be). Anything packed on a Mule or Horse & Cart isn't immediately available, so can be turned face down if one wishes. There are lots of other options as well.

And our games are much more interesting because of it. It was quite enjoyable when the Troll with a Runesword came at the Prophetess ... and got whacked when she used Psionic Blast and pulled out the Potion of Strength. Make your opponents fear you not only for what you have... but what you might have that they don't know about or don't remember you acquiring.

And yes, the rules say that the cards must be kept face up... ha! How boring.... and wimpish.

It sounds like all you've done is discourage any PvP combat.

/shrug

Nope, we just eliminate the cheat for facing the unknown. You never know what's coming at you from the Adventure deck or other encounter cards, so why get to pick and chose targets among other players? There's plenty of PvP no matter what when there's more players and thereby less equipment and talismans to go around. And if few players, then few PvP encounters anyway.

Players will always have to fight for what they need. Nothing deters PvP... except cowardice in wanting to only pick on weaker targets by getting to peak at them from a god's eye view. That doesn't take any backbone and makes for a shallow victory one or one, or for the endgame.

No guts, no [real] glory... as the saying goes.

JCHendee said:

Do you have a thread in home brews with how you play it or did you sum it up in your earlier reply? I'm always willing to give it a shot.

GregC said:

Actually, it's a combination of changes, but most modern players looking for the fast game won't like it. The only equipment you can use during an encounter is what you're carrying yourself. Anything one a follower or in baggage (we have baggage objects as Purchase cards) must be changed out before you get jumped by a monster, stranger, etc., or another player. All objects in baggage or "packed" on a Follower may be turned face down on said baggage / follower until someone somehow can (or tries to) take what you have. That one opponent is the only one who can look at your stuff if they defeat you or use a spell, or if allowed by other considerations. (We have rules about any spell for acquiring an object from beyond the target's space, and when they try for something packed away, its a blind grab.)

This inevitably leads to a question: "How does everyone else know you aren't stowing away a monster you don't want to face or an item you can legitimately have?" When cards are first drawn, they must be shown, so that no subterfuge is possible. After that, the previous rule applies. It's up to your opponents to remember what you have, or even where it is if you have more one place to pack it away. And most are so busy being greedy and looking for a weaker mark to abuse that they won't remember. Too bad! And their the ones who complain and try to claim it limits PvP.

The only real limit it creates is on players who just want to go after someone they are certain they can defeat. That's not PvP.

The next question that comes up is: "So if you can't pull out stuff on a follower at the last instant, what good is it to even haul extra equipment around?" It's a short sighted question showing that this player is oblivious to tactics and strategy, even in an overly random board game. We have "baggage" Purchase cards of various types, though that isn't necessary for you to try this option. Aside for backpacks, we have sachels or belt pouches. I know, they aren't part of the standard Purchase cards, but there you are. A sachel, which counts as one object on your person, can carry three objects equal to or lesser in size than the Crown. That's how the Prophetess was able to surprise the Troll for a double boost in her strength with the Potion.

We have actually played games where adventurers have the option at the start to trade in their one gold for a sachel. It limits you from carrying one extra larger object, but lets you carry three extra smaller ones on your person. You could simply try a game where players have this option by sacrificing their 1 starting Gold. Just make an index card marked "sachel" and leave it at that for now. Or make extras available for purchase in the City for 1 Gold. Ours are actual cards from the In the Balance fan expansion available at TalismanIsland.com

Obviously all these changes aren't going to be to most people's tastes. You can also skip the sachel option, play by the normal rules where "magically" everything you have on a mule is instantly available, but use the rule of packed objects not being on display. The only thing you opponents see is what's one you (and that's still from a god-like POV).

Give it try if you like. It's not like you have to keep doing it if you don't like. But be prepared that many of your mates more interest in the fastest possible win by hoading objects and followers in place of building up Str/Craft for real won't like it. And I won't go into the "secret alignment" rule we use as well as an occassional change of pace.

I still laugh when I think about the look on the face of the Troll player who thought he'd picked an easy target... which is mostly what all who rant about PvP are really doing. They deserve a nasty surprise for being spineless. Seriously, a Troll who gets a runesword a third of the way into the game could pick on anyone, but he choose to go after the Prophetess... and she made him PAY for it. You won't get that kind of action by the standard rules.

JCHendee said:

What's larger than a Crown? I quickly looked over the "In the Balance" rules but didn't see anything obvious.

These house rules do seem interesting, maybe I can talk the others into trying them, it's my game after all. Thanks.

The premise does require people to be reasonable about the actual objects they carry rather than treating them purely as cards with bonuses. Larger than a crown would, for example, include all such items as a all standard weapons and armor and nearly all magical weapons of any kind. Such items will not fit in baggage design to strap on one's belt. In other words, if you were carrying a sword, there is no way you've going to stick another weapon or any armor in that sachel.

But the sachel might carry things like an extra ring, a potion bottle, a talisman, a wand, a magical gem stone, etc. without impeding you. It can carry things that would be useful in a pinch and could actually be whipped out in an instant (well, not in reality, but there you are).

Eventually I'm going to get around to re-doing ITB, as over time I've discovered things that I and others don't like or doesn't work completely right. One loophole is that the Adventurer's Kit would likely fill the whole sachel and then some. And of course the documentation needs work. But for now, I'm leaving it alone while I'm focused on other things like the alternative quest cards and making an economy "square" sized board for when its just Barb and I playing alone. (That monster sized board is getting annoying.)

JCHendee said:

Just wait until all four corner boards are released!!

Lol, I hear ya though. I myself do enjoy the epic size of the board, however I have no clue where I'm going to play this game once all 4 corner boards do come out (I can't barely fit it on my kitchen counter as it is). Awesome.

At present, only a cohort of ours has the Dungeon, who only makes it down every couple of months, so we don't play it when we're on our own. And so far, we haven't missed it. Even in the 2E days we didn't play it that much. But we would be interested in seeing the Forest and Mountain "realms" some year in the future. The City realm in 2E enthused us even less than the Dungeon, so it's my hope that either the Forest or the Mountain is next for an "addition" vs "supplement" expansion.

Now that the upgrade has become available at a reasonable price, I will try to get this thread back on track. Would you suggest buying the upgrade or the 4th Revised? I know the upgrade doesn't include the changes on the board. How big a deal is that? Is ther enything else the upgrade is lacking?

rickert said:

Just the changes on the board and the Cones

+revised board is bigger

That's everything

For me, that's enough reasons to buy the revised edition.

Instead of upgrade pack, you can better keep your money and buy the revised edition

No regrets !

As a counter point, the BI 4E board is slightly smaller, and yet still works just fine with any of the expansions. The size difference is very minor, and a bigger board isn't a plus. I prefer the tokens over those indistinct cones, but that's neither hear nor there in general.

If you've already paid $50 USD or equivalent for the BI edition, then you'll drop the same on buying the game all over again. Shop around, and I'm betting you find the Upgrade pack like I did for about $17... maybe even less. You'll get everything you need sans the board space changes. With the graphics available through FFG or TalismanIsland.com, you can print them on stickers / labels in pieces you may have around the house. Or buy sticker sheets to print in one piece. You only need to print the text part and not the whole spaces to upgrade you board.

Overall, 6 of one, half dozen of the other. The real difference is in buying the whole game you won't have to upgrade your own board. Well, that's the only real meanful difference at all. By the time you're into the expansions, you'll have so much stuff to play with, it won't matter anymore. So... save money, or save a little time and effort patching your board. But that extra $30 is more than you'll need to buy your first expansion.

I'm really leaning toward just buying the upgrade. But can someone help direct me and guide me to the place where I can get the changes that need to bde made to the board and how best to do it?