So the card says " (trash): Do 1 brain damage. Use this ability only during a run on this server and if the runner has no unspent clicks. "

That means that the runner has to run on this server on his last click, for Ryon to trigger.

What happens if he runs on 3rd and you have some *lose a click* ability ICE. For example - Viper, Enigma etc. etc.
To my understanding, there will be no problem in Rezzing him, however there will be a problem in Using him.
You can rezz him as he encounters the ICE, however, then the runner hasn't lost the clicks from the ICE, so you can't use him.

When the runner let the subroutines resolve and he loses the click and end the run - there is no paid ability window to use Ryon then.
He ends the run, the moment the subroutine resolves and the next paid ability window is at the end of 4th click/prior his discard phase.

Is this correct?

Also while speaking of timing, I'd ask one more thing.

It is possible to use Hades Shard, after (sort of in response to) Jackson, during the runner's turn and let it resolves prior Jackson.

The case I have in mind is - The runner has Hades Shard installed, the corp has Jackson installed. The runner mills/trashes a few agendas and the corp already had a few agendas in their archives, so they see that the runner will win the game if he hades. So the corp uses Jackson, during the runner's turn , to put some back in archives. The runner then says that he will Hades Shard. Hades resolves prior Jackson.

My understanding is, that they use the same Paid Ability window and as long as it's the runner's turn, the runner action will resolve first. It doesn't matter if the corp said that he will Jackson before the runner said that he will Hades.

Correct me if I'm wrong

BR,
Dydra

This is my understanding of how it works:

During the rez window, you can rez both (or just rez the ice... I'll explain later). If you are rezzing the ice, there is no window for the runner to jack out. Once it is rezzed, he encounters it. Now the runner can break subroutines or eat them during this paid abilities window. Since the runner goes first, he/she breaks subroutines before you use your paid abilities. If he uses a click to break a SR, you will be able to trigger Ryon once he's done breaking SR and using other paid abilities. Now, he might see Ryon there and not use a click, but that means he eats a SR and there are several really nasty SR on HB ice that might make taking the Brain Damage the lesser of the two evils. Do this if you want to be sadistic and have the requisite ICE.

...Or... you could just rez the ice, leaving Ryon unrezzed and wait for 4.1 in which you can both rez AND use paid abilities right before the runner can access cards.

The second count is interesting... now that I think more about it. I believe that if there is a paid abilities window and the runner chooses not to do anything before you do, then they forfeit the ability to use paid abilities during that window. In this case, JH will go off and the runner would have to use Hades during the next window. It's been said many times that there is no "reaction window" as it were. That being said, if you were to just spring it on the runner during a paid abilities window, he could counter that he hadn't yet decided whether to use it. You would likely have to ask, "Will you be using any paid abilities at this time?" If he says "no", you should be able to use JH without a hitch.

This is my understanding of how it works:

During the rez window, you can rez both (or just rez the ice... I'll explain later). If you are rezzing the ice, there is no window for the runner to jack out. Once it is rezzed, he encounters it. Now the runner can break subroutines or eat them during this paid abilities window. Since the runner goes first, he/she breaks subroutines before you use your paid abilities. If he uses a click to break a SR, you will be able to trigger Ryon once he's done breaking SR and using other paid abilities. Now, he might see Ryon there and not use a click, but that means he eats a SR and there are several really nasty SR on HB ice that might make taking the Brain Damage the lesser of the two evils. Do this if you want to be sadistic and have the requisite ICE.

I'd like to point out that the ICE I have in mind says ( as a subroutine) - LOSE a click. I'm not talking about the biorid ICE, which you can USE a click to break a sub.

More what I have in mind is:

The Runner ENCOUNTERS a piece of ice. (‘When encountered’ conditionals meet their trigger conditions) 
3.1 Icebreakers can interact with the encountered ice,  [ Paid Ability Window ]
3.2 Resolve all subroutines not broken on the encountered ice. ...Either the run ends: go to [6]

6. The run ends and is considered to be UNSUCCESSFUL. (‘When unsuccessful’ conditionals meet their trigger conditions)

I don't see any Paid Ability Window from 3.2 to 6.0

However, if the subroutine makes him LOSE a click and doesn't end the run, then :

4. The Runner APPROACHES the attacked server. 
4.1 [ Paid Ability Window] 
4.2 The Runner Decides Wether to continue the Run or: 

As far as the Jackson case, if that will be the correct manner to play, then people can "bait" the runner into using Hades. I would like to see what the Comissar thinks about this.

Furthermore, as far as I see the explanation of the Blacklist topic, few topics below, is that the Paid Ability opportunity returns/passes back to the Runner, once the Corp has done its actions. Unlike the Blacklist Case, the Paid ability which you want to use (Hades Shard) doesn't get locked out/forbidden by the Jackson, therefore you can use it. Then you have again both abilities in the same trigger time, therefore the runner will resolve first. That's at least how I understand it.

Comissar or Grimwalker maybe can think a bit about this too.

As far as Ryon Knight, you have it correct Dydra. If the subroutines (like Enigma for example) caused both click loss and the run to end, you have no opportunity to use Ryon. Maybe try Hourglass?

With regards to Hades vs. Jackson, it comes down to "did the runner pass priority?"

There's been some discussion on this, because officially you haven't passed until you've said you've passed or declared your next click. In the case of taking another click though, you're potentially going to tip your hand about what you're going to do.

It's up to both players to trust and respect the timing structure. If you have no intention of firing Hades, but decide you will because I said I wanted to use my Jackson and you haven't 'officially' passed priority yet, that's a **** move.

The only way to 100% avoid this kind of issue of for both players to formally pass priority at every window, but sadly that's just not realistic. The best answer I've seen to the problem is at the start of the game, both players agree to play by the following convention:

For every click, announce the click number, then pause to allow your opponent to take paid actions or rez cards. BY ANNOUNCING THE CLICK NUMBER YOU ARE ANNOUNCING YOUR INTENTION TO TAKE A NEW ACTION, AND THEREFORE THAT YOU HAVE PASSED ON THE PREVIOUS PAID ABILITY WINDOW. If after 3 seconds they haven't interrupted you or officially passed the window they are assumed to have passed.

Note that this does take some discipline from both players, but can avoid some serious timing problems.

With all my respect, in a tournament environment I find it hard to believe that you will talk with 10+ ppl ( considering you go through) explaining to them what you agree with and whatnot. On the other hand yeah, it's a **** move, but so is returning cards. People sometimes get offended, that I don't allow them to return their moves/clicks/cards during tournaments ( idk at all in casual play), but I find it a really **** move for them to return moves/clicks/cards that win/lose them games and then brag about 1st place and how good they are.

So yeah, a lot can be talked about players discipline and sportsmanship and not everything is black-and-white.

In my experience as a player and as a TO, the niceties of timing rarely cause actual problems. 99.99% of the time, people are able to politely interrupt their opponent's next declared step to say "just a moment, I have an action." People tend to know pretty well that when it comes to paid ability windows, you do your stuff, then I do my stuff.

In instances where there's a Jackson Howard and a Hades Shard both on the board, it becomes a real game of chicken, so players tend to get really granular about timing during those moments because mistakes and misunderstandings matter. I know every time I have a Hades Shard on the table I'm *always* looking for which face down card might be a Jackson and always judging when I might be able to take the opportunity to strike.

As far as Ryon Knight goes, I look at him as best used in a bioroid server. "Oh you clicked through my Eli. My turn for paid abilities. Bang!"

On the other hand yeah, it's a **** move, but so is returning cards.

I fail to see how simply USING Jackson is considered a **** move. As I described above, what I have an issue with is instances where you had no intention of using your Hades Shard, but decided to do so 'in response' to me declaring my use of Jackson. That simply isn't allowed under the timing structure of Netrunner. The only reason it gets fuzzy is whether or not players passed priority formally.

Thankfully as Grim stated a lot of players get very hedgy in such cases anyway (same as when there's a potential paid-speed Clot install) and players tend to slow down and give those cues for passing windows.

On the other hand yeah, it's a **** move, but so is returning cards.

I fail to see how simply USING Jackson is considered a **** move. As I described above, what I have an issue with is instances where you had no intention of using your Hades Shard, but decided to do so 'in response' to me declaring my use of Jackson. That simply isn't allowed under the timing structure of Netrunner. The only reason it gets fuzzy is whether or not players passed priority formally.

Thankfully as Grim stated a lot of players get very hedgy in such cases anyway (same as when there's a potential paid-speed Clot install) and players tend to slow down and give those cues for passing windows.

I think there may be a miscommunication here. I can't remember for sure but I seem to recall that Dydra's from somewhere in Europe and English isn't his/her first language.

I think what is meant here is, "People sometimes get offended, that I don't allow them to reverse their moves/clicks/cards during tournaments (idk at all in casual play), but I find it a really **** move for them to reverse moves/clicks/cards that win/lose them games and then brag about 1st place and how good they are."

So, in other words, in tournaments, no takebacks. Which is as it should be unless you need to correct the game state due to a misplay.

Ah, if I've misunderstood then fair enough, I apologise. I thought 'returning cards' meant 'using Jackson's remove from game ability'. I agree that 'no takebacks' is very much a thing at tournament level. You screwed up, you suffer for it (god knows I did enough times at UK nationals )

"Your mistakes are part of my win condition."

You coming over for Worlds, Feesh?

Sadly no, my wallet won't stand it, and I don't think my performance during this year's tourney season justifies it either

I wish Europe had Worlds as well... too much of a venture for us to travel to the US just for this event.

Otherwise yeah, I meant "reverse" already taken action. Somehow some people on our playgroup get sad when you don't allow them to reverse their action, but after the tournament when they finish 1st or 2nd they are like " Yeah it was easy, this deck bla bla bla, that deck bla bla, just not as good as my deck bla ". Thankfully most of them have stopped playing, but some of them still left.


Truth is, if a new-player comes to the tournament I'd in 9/10 cases give him the opportunity to reverse his action, simply because I know that he is doing due to the lack of experience, not due to a bad decision making at the time. However, for a person who is going to brag after that he is the best player around - never. If he wants to say that, he has to earn it.

I feel like a heel now with the registration drama going on.