Not sure if 8 point passive defensive ability is worth it. I am thinking it mostly prevents your squadrons from being attack if they are under protection. But it is possible for the squadrons to get left behind and forced into an engagement without the protection of Gallant.

It's value is determined by your play style or your willingness to adjust it.

If I were a Gallant Haven groupie it'd be surrounded by A-Wings and not B's.

The only real way to prove its value TO YOU is to play with it extensively. After a bit it's 'Value' in your list/style will be revealed.

The value of A-Wings is not sitting next to your capital ship. Why would you hang out by the Gallant Haven with them? They should be using their superior speed to cut off opposing fighters.

Gallant Haven is basically a moving fortress for your squadrons. You will never lose an engagement in it, even to howlrunner + FC interceptors (have crushed them on multiple occasions, just one round of Haven canceling 8-10 damage is enough to swing things in your favor). It is, of course, limited range and Haven does not benefit from her own ability (bit of a glaring weakpoint there, since you can always hit the ship instead)

it's a great shield to put between your other ships, and a great place to launch fighters from

mileage will always vary, you need to have a list and playstyle in mind when you use it

personally, I found generic X-wing spam to work absolute wonders with Haven covering their less than Tie speed but I have Paragon to take care of anti-ship so more dedicated squadron builds might benefit from splashing B-wings, which are just ace at making rebels scary in close combat (gsds beware!)

Gallant Haven + Aces, when played correctly because it's very difficult to play, is probably the best or second best list in the game at the moment. For all of you saying that Demolisher/Gladiators kill it, you get one shot before Keyan and his friends violate your face. The squadrons are immune to defensive fire for the large part, and as said earlier you will NEVER win the fighter fight if you engage in range of it.

Ah so what is the best list in this game then?

Ah so what is the best list in this game then?

There isn't one. That's what makes it a great game.

For 7 points it basically precludes your opponent doing the big squadron strike against you.

Probably even more value if fighting rebels vs rebels.

The other night I managed to negate it by premptively engaging the fighters with Tie interceptors. With Haven flying along at speed 2 (may even have been 3), it quickly left its squadrons behind.

I still lost the fighter war though!

It's value is determined by your play style or your willingness to adjust it.

If I were a Gallant Haven groupie it'd be surrounded by A-Wings and not B's.

The only real way to prove its value TO YOU is to play with it extensively. After a bit it's 'Value' in your list/style will be revealed.

Well said!

Don't be an armchair general

Ah so what is the best list in this game then?

There isn't one. That's what makes it a great game.

Dude i was making fun because he said that that was the second best list in the game...

Ah so what is the best list in this game then?

There isn't one. That's what makes it a great game.

Dude i was making fun because he said that that was the second best list in the game...

Nothing goes over my head. My reflexes are too fast - I would catch it.

I think the range is too short to make your squadrons useful. They either hang back next to it and do nothing with a lot of protection, or Haven moves at speed 1 in case they get engaged and then you're wasting your whale just sitting supporting your fighters..

It helps against inexperienced players, but anyone who's played against it knows how to come in, lock the squadrons down and take Haven out of range. That was my experience at my latest tournament. It was bad enough that I won't tech to squadrons with an AF again - it's just too many upgrades for something that's too easily broken up and not useful...

Ah so what is the best list in this game then?

There isn't one. That's what makes it a great game.

This statement is just as unsubstantiated as his.

I think the range is too short to make your squadrons useful. They either hang back next to it and do nothing with a lot of protection, or Haven moves at speed 1 in case they get engaged and then you're wasting your whale just sitting supporting your fighters..

It helps against inexperienced players, but anyone who's played against it knows how to come in, lock the squadrons down and take Haven out of range. That was my experience at my latest tournament. It was bad enough that I won't tech to squadrons with an AF again - it's just too many upgrades for something that's too easily broken up and not useful...

you don't have to have haven derping around constantly sheltering its babies to make it useful

just one round of haven is enough to tilt the squadron war in your favor

this means one of two things

1.) your slow speed 3 squadrons get hit by interceptors or w.e and cancel something like 8 damage (not kidding, between normal attacks and counters 8 damage is pretty easy to cancel)

2.) your slow speed 3 squadrons don't get attacked and you can get the alpha strike despite their slowness

I don't think haven is auto-include by any means (it's kinda pointless with a lot of A-wings, for example), but it can have a huge effect even if only minimally used. At the very least, it paints a big target on the whale in question and can either shelter a large force of normally slow and vulnerable squadrons, or be purposed as a big, spikey shield to place between you and your enemy

I think the range is too short to make your squadrons useful. They either hang back next to it and do nothing with a lot of protection, or Haven moves at speed 1 in case they get engaged and then you're wasting your whale just sitting supporting your fighters..

It helps against inexperienced players, but anyone who's played against it knows how to come in, lock the squadrons down and take Haven out of range. That was my experience at my latest tournament. It was bad enough that I won't tech to squadrons with an AF again - it's just too many upgrades for something that's too easily broken up and not useful...

And/or it makes Haven predictable in movement (if you took any B-wings at all, especially), which means you can simultaneously line it up with a VSD and Gladiators. Most of the games I have seen involve the Haven being the priority A+++ target for the imperials, with a pretty good idea of where it will be. It takes clever use of squadron commands, timing, and a bit of luck to work around it, given that non A-wings are also slower than imperial fighters.

The value of A-Wings is not sitting next to your capital ship. Why would you hang out by the Gallant Haven with them? They should be using their superior speed to cut off opposing fighters.

Your opinion versus mine. I don't have to use their 'Speed' for the sake of using it...ill use it when the opportunity presents itself. Those enemy ships you'd 'cut_off'?...where is it you think they are going to? DING!

I chose A-Wings because they can keep up, hit back (Counter 2) while benefiting from one less damage, and can be sent out to clean up on highly damaged Ships by attacking zero shield hull zones. The enemy squadrons either come fight or waste time posturing. The opponent plays into your trap or gives you the initiative.

But I'm just Armchair Generalling. I'm not on the Gallant Haven bandwagon. But if I WERE...that'd be my approach.

The problem I have is that a well timed Squadron command, or even catching the fighters away from the protection during Squadron phase can pretty much negate the ability.

Against a GOOD player, i don't think it is worthwhile.

GOOD player is a meaningless term

If a player is GOOD you'd think he'd outfly you regardless of what upgrade you brought

Or wouldn't a GOOD player make this upgrade shine?

But hey, that's why its a 2 player game

If a player is GOOD you'd think he'd outfly you regardless of what upgrade you brought.

Unless...Unless...the other player was just as gooder? /thecrowdgasps. Now we must revisit the original question without the benefit of all planets being aligned.

Where is Drunk Tarkin to hammer me back into my tiny corner away from the the internets?

The value of A-Wings is not sitting next to your capital ship. Why would you hang out by the Gallant Haven with them? They should be using their superior speed to cut off opposing fighters.

Your opinion versus mine. I don't have to use their 'Speed' for the sake of using it...ill use it when the opportunity presents itself. Those enemy ships you'd 'cut_off'?...where is it you think they are going to? DING!

I chose A-Wings because they can keep up, hit back (Counter 2) while benefiting from one less damage, and can be sent out to clean up on highly damaged Ships by attacking zero shield hull zones. The enemy squadrons either come fight or waste time posturing. The opponent plays into your trap or gives you the initiative.

But I'm just Armchair Generalling. I'm not on the Gallant Haven bandwagon. But if I WERE...that'd be my approach.

Bombers going after your other ships...? If you just want to park all of your fighters next to the Gallant Haven, it is wasted points unless your opponent just rushes you. Give it a B-Wing or X-Wing escort, or just use it as a couple turn shield. A-Wings are interceptors and should be put harassing anything not coming for your Whale.

I've played one game with gallant haven and it was not decisive. But that was because my opponent only bought 6 tie fighters (at 400pts!).

That is more the issue with any 'anti squadron' upgrade you run the risk of it being largely worthless if your opponent doesn't bring many squadrons...

But as insurance against an imperial fighter death ball? Probably not a bad investment and will only get more appealing at the larger 400pts total where you can afford to invest in some specialty items without affecting your overall composition.

Definitely requires good planning to use effectively. You need to predict and engineer the squadron engagement to happen on your terms - all while telegraphing exactly where it is going to occur to your opponent. You either need some very good bait or a very cooperative opponent. ☺

I think it is definitely worth it. In my experience its beauty comes from its ability to allow you to attack where and when you want with your squadrons (even a terrifying TIE swarm will think twice about attacking within the protection of Haven), as well as the benefit that it can allow you to quickly nullify enemy squadrons and allow you to then target enemy capital ships.

I like to think that even when I do not trigger its ability in game that the title is still benefiting me as it is affecting my opponents decision making. That by itself is something I try to capitalize on. I expect it will only get better in terms of its affordability (obviously) and flexibility at the 400 point level.

Ah so what is the best list in this game then?

There isn't one. That's what makes it a great game.

This statement is just as unsubstantiated as his.

Not entirely. We have numerous examples of builds that are better against one set of opponent lists but worse against others, we have no examples of a list that is better against all lists. One cannot argue that there is a "best" out of rock, paper and scissors. All lists created so far are better against some and worse against others. Whilst it's theoretically possible that there is a list out there that is only better against others and never worse, it seems highly unlikely based on both our understanding of the game and on all precedence.

Furthermore, the question itself is incomplete. A list might work well with a particular strategy or poorly with another. Depending on the skill in executing a strategy a list could be good for one player and bad for another. I made good use of my VSD in my last game. In my first game, it's slowness was a liability that basically cost me the game (whereas with a gladiator in its place, I would have been okay). The difference between the two was not the ship, which was the same, but my increased skill at manoeuvring. The point I am making is that a list is a complex set of variables and it's not about having the right variables exactly, but about knowing what to do with particular variables. A screwdriver is not better than a hammer. They both depend on the intentions of the person using them. Therefore the question is itself quite misleading. It presupposes the list has value independent of the player.

So in short, I don't believe my statement is just as unsubstantiated as theirs.

Gallant saved me 12 damage on my squadrons last game within 2 turns. I would say that is points well spent.

Ah so what is the best list in this game then?

There isn't one. That's what makes it a great game.

This statement is just as unsubstantiated as his.

Not entirely. We have numerous examples of builds that are better against one set of opponent lists but worse against others, we have no examples of a list that is better against all lists. One cannot argue that there is a "best" out of rock, paper and scissors. All lists created so far are better against some and worse against others. Whilst it's theoretically possible that there is a list out there that is only better against others and never worse, it seems highly unlikely based on both our understanding of the game and on all precedence.Furthermore, the question itself is incomplete. A list might work well with a particular strategy or poorly with another. Depending on the skill in executing a strategy a list could be good for one player and bad for another. I made good use of my VSD in my last game. In my first game, it's slowness was a liability that basically cost me the game (whereas with a gladiator in its place, I would have been okay). The difference between the two was not the ship, which was the same, but my increased skill at manoeuvring. The point I am making is that a list is a complex set of variables and it's not about having the right variables exactly, but about knowing what to do with particular variables. A screwdriver is not better than a hammer. They both depend on the intentions of the person using them. Therefore the question is itself quite misleading. It presupposes the list has value independent of the player.So in short, I don't believe my statement is just as unsubstantiated as theirs.

Dude he said that a list was the second best in the game. And out of sheer curiosity i asked which is the best list in his opinion. I know that in a balanced game with variable objectives there should not be a best or second best list...