Hi All,

Couple of questions on the Tinkerer Talent. The talent says:

TINKERER

Activation: Passive
Ranked: Yes
Trees: Gadgeteer, Outlaw Tech
The character makes one piece of equipment more modifiable. He chooses one piece of equipment and increases its number of hard points by one. He can only do this once per piece of equipment, but can modify a number of pieces of equipment equal to his ranks in Tinkerer. If he loses a modified piece of equipment, he may apply Tinkerer to a new one.

So here are my questions:

1. Is there a limitation to the size of the item being tinkered with using the Tinkerer talent?
2. Can the Tinkerer talent be applied to a starship or starship attachment?
3. Can the Tinkerer talent be applied to another character's equipment?

Common thinking is.

1. No

2. Yes

3. Yes

The talent is not specific and I don't recall if anyone asked for clarification. Everyone is of a mind the Tech and/or Engineer splatbooks might offer a starship variant. We'll see.

If the talent is applied to another character's equipment, by RAW, can you keep modifying other PC's equipment indefinitely? I mean, modify a blaster, give it to the original owner ("lose" it), apply talent to a new one, rinse, repeat? Unless there is a clear definition of "loses" somewhere?

If the talent is applied to another character's equipment, by RAW, can you keep modifying other PC's equipment indefinitely? I mean, modify a blaster, give it to the original owner ("lose" it), apply talent to a new one, rinse, repeat? Unless there is a clear definition of "loses" somewhere?

Pretty much going to be between the GM and player imo.

My opinion on these questions in short:

1. Kinda, but no.

2. No

3. Errr.... No.

The somewhat longer answer:

Size as such doesn't necessarily come into it, but what I'd call category does. And this relates to question 2. I do not consider a starship a piece of equipment. There's a difference between a vehicle and equipment in my mind. Perhaps that's a silly arbitrary line that is poo-GMing, but I've yet to see any reasonable arguments for why a vehicle should be considered a piece of equipment the same way a blaster, piece of armour or night vision goggles are. Sure, I've seen many arguments and reasons for why, but all of them are grasping at straws and only fall in line with power gaming, at least as far as I'm concerned. I'd disagree with 2P51's statement that his is the "common thinking", but hey, what do I know. I'm just a grumpy post-adolescent, bearded male.

As for using the talents on other players' or non-player characters' equipment? No. Simply No. It makes little sense, unless one considers this a magical "upgrade" of customisability, which it isn't as far as I know. It's like the thread where someone asked about selling Tinkered gear... it just doesn't really make sense to sell something that's gaffa-taped, bent and customised beyond recognition to fit that extra attachment in such a way that it's only really your own hand that can fire the weapon or use those custom-fitted night vision goggles with a built-in range finder with targeting software ...

I'm sure there's some errata or dev answer to this somewhere (a quick scan through the dev answer thread didn't come up with answers to these questions, but I figure you've looked there already). Which may completely contradict whatever I've said, but to me this is what makes the most sense, it makes techs more powerful for themselves without making them an auto-go-to character type to buff the group's gear...

I guess the intention of this talent is somewhere in between my "NO" and 2P51's "YES."

I think that tinkerer can be applied to starship as it's the only way we have to increase the starship HP. It is also a very thematically appropriate thing as we often see ships that are modified way beyond the factory specifications. So i do not think that tinkering with a ship is a powergaming, but since it certainly has the potential for abuse, i'd interpret the starship as a single peice of equipment, so you can only add 1 HP. IMO this gives the perfect balance between modifying a ship and avoiding abuse of the system.

Of course in the future technician splatbook we may have spec or talent specifically designed to add HP, but for now an extended interpretation of tinkerer is probably the best way to modify starships.

For good measure I've sent a message about a rule clarification on this.

1. I'd say there's an upper limit, but what that is I'd decide when a player asks me, "how about one of these?" rather than set some limit beforehand. Roughly, I'd say anything you can carry is fine.

2. No. No vehicles or starships. I might allow jet packs (see above) but no other forms of transportation.

3. Yes, you can apply Tinkerer to someone else's equipment. The condition must be that the character with the Tinkerer talent has regular access to said item, so he can repair/modify/tinker with it.

Hi All,

Couple of questions on the Tinkerer Talent. The talent says:

TINKERER

Activation: Passive

Ranked: Yes

Trees: Gadgeteer, Outlaw Tech

The character makes one piece of equipment more modifiable. He chooses one piece of equipment and increases its number of hard points by one. He can only do this once per piece of equipment, but can modify a number of pieces of equipment equal to his ranks in Tinkerer. If he loses a modified piece of equipment, he may apply Tinkerer to a new one.

So here are my questions:

1. Is there a limitation to the size of the item being tinkered with using the Tinkerer talent?
2. Can the Tinkerer talent be applied to a starship or starship attachment?
3. Can the Tinkerer talent be applied to another character's equipment?

1. (imho) No, but i would limit it on equipment. So no starships, hovelifter etc. Weapons, even rocket launchers, heavy repetierblaster and so on, are fine. Of course amors too.

2. no, see above.

3. Hmmmm. Yes. If the tinkerer sees himself as a support, and his opinon is that his soldier friend NEEDS that weapon improvement, why not. (But this is not "lost", so per rank just one item "in the group". Btw: I think this "lost rule" is in case somebody gets something destroyed or doesn't like it anymore, with this rule he didn't blew his EP into wildspace)

Why are you all so against applying tinkerer to starships, while everything else is fair game? That's what the outlaw tech specialization is about, tinkering and making crazy modifications on everything, including starships!

And adding 1 HP more doesn't sound particularly gamebreaking, while it can give the needed space to add that one more attachment that could give you the necessary edge in combat (or the attachment that's useless but is great for rp or for defining a character ). Also limiting to a certain size, like size 5, cause bigger ships are too complex to tinker, sounds another reasonable limit , if someone thinks a Nebulon B frigate or star destroyer with 3 HP are overpowered.

i'd ask the devs, cause the way i see it, this issue hasn't been resolved yet. (i might be mistaken though)

until then, play as you like. and if you don't like the official ruling (i'm looking at you, move!), keep playing as you like.

This is how I would rule for my table.

1, Only limited to equipment.

2, NO. If you look at the FFG character sheet it lists weapon/armor/gear as equipment. Not ships, not base of operations, not droids...

3, No.

1 and 2 are sort of the same question.

3, I see this as power-gamer/min/maxer trying to go outside what is stated.

3, I see this as power-gamer/min/maxer trying to go outside what is stated.

If PC 1, a technician, has the capacity and technical know-how to upgrade something, and PC 2 owns such a piece of equipment, such as a quality blaster, and both of them are allies and friends who work together for an extended period of time, what's to stop PC 1 from doing so? Especially if they're an outlaw tech, who's entire purpose is to optimize stuff.

My version:

1)No

2)No. At least not until after I've seen the bonus classes in the Tech/Engie book. If they wanted vehicles to be able to gain additional hard points it would have been in Stay on Target, or it will be in those books. For now I suspect the intent is for the HP limitations to be a characteristic of the craft, and if you want a craft with better stats then you can Mod within the HP limit, it's time for a different craft.

3)Yes but. This is one I'd do on a case by case. I can see situations where it wouldn't be unbalancing... and situations where it would. Generally speaking though I'm of the mind it's to allow the Tinkerer to augment certain areas, or offset shortfalls through the use of tech. Allowing the Heavy (who's already good at shooting big guns) to carry a repeating blaster that's tricked out beyond tricked out, seems a little out of the concept...but workable if the player had his heart set on it.

3, I see this as power-gamer/min/maxer trying to go outside what is stated.

If PC 1, a technician, has the capacity and technical know-how to upgrade something, and PC 2 owns such a piece of equipment, such as a quality blaster, and both of them are allies and friends who work together for an extended period of time, what's to stop PC 1 from doing so? Especially if they're an outlaw tech, who's entire purpose is to optimize stuff.

Except there is the Ace / Smuggler that are designed to optimize a vehicle, but who cares about them when I can convince my GM I mean more eh? /sarcasm

I stated this is how I would do it at my table. I see no reason to give a middle finger to the Smuggler/Aces that may or may not be available at the time to appease a Gadgeteer or Outlaw Tech due to misreading what "equipment" is.

I can see how applying Tinker to vehicles is outside the bounds of what was intended, but I was referring specifically to applying it on something another PC owns and uses. Especially considering how nebulous personal gear can be. So prone to loss, destruction or replacement.

So where does it end then? Where does "loss" begin?

I think about what the intent seems. If loss just means out of your line of sight, then it is lost if you leave it in a weapons lockup going into a bar/casino/etc. If loss means out of your possession then as soon as you hand it to your group mate it is gone.

What seems more likely is due to your crazy abilities you can mess with things and fit another attachment with space-bondo/space-duct tape. You as the Outlaw Tech may be fine and know how to handle a weapon sight that is like that but the average person couldn't. Also what is to stop 2 Outlaw techs working together to double boost an item? It only says they can do it once, that means if you have 3 Outlaw Techs and use the "can transfer it to another Player" rule you can add 3 HPs to it.

You can see how that can spiral out of control really fast. Suddenly it is "The Mask" style craziness and you gave up on being reasonable.

What seems more likely is due to your crazy abilities you can mess with things and fit another attachment with space-bondo/space-duct tape. You as the Outlaw Tech may be fine and know how to handle a weapon sight that is like that but the average person couldn't. Also what is to stop 2 Outlaw techs working together to double boost an item? It only says they can do it once, that means if you have 3 Outlaw Techs and use the "can transfer it to another Player" rule you can add 3 HPs to it.

You can see how that can spiral out of control really fast. Suddenly it is "The Mask" style craziness and you gave up on being reasonable.

Check the description again. Tinkerer can only be applied to a single item once at a time.

What seems more likely is due to your crazy abilities you can mess with things and fit another attachment with space-bondo/space-duct tape. You as the Outlaw Tech may be fine and know how to handle a weapon sight that is like that but the average person couldn't. Also what is to stop 2 Outlaw techs working together to double boost an item? It only says they can do it once, that means if you have 3 Outlaw Techs and use the "can transfer it to another Player" rule you can add 3 HPs to it.

You can see how that can spiral out of control really fast. Suddenly it is "The Mask" style craziness and you gave up on being reasonable.

Check the description again. Tinkerer can only be applied to a single item once at a time.

It's just as easy to interpret it to say that each Tinkerer can apply it once.

I'm sure the devs will respond.

It just seems to me they've listed the talent in 2 CRBs now the same way and the verbiage is the same. They tend to interpret their rules as written pretty literally. Since Jury Rigged makes a specific point of mentioning the word personal and Tinkerer does not I don't think that's an oversight. I don't think it's meant to be just their gear.

It probably isn't meant to be just used in general on starships or vehicles but the word equipment certainly leaves wiggle room in regards to parts of a starship or vehicle.

It's pretty self limiting as well with only one HP allowed per item and a total number of items allowed limited by ranks of the Talent.

In regards to the word 'loses' I would think everyone can consult a dictionary and arrive at their own definition in game terms they are comfortable with. It seems to me 'no longer in possession' and "inadvertent or accidental' satisfies the definition of lost as opposed to sold.

What seems more likely is due to your crazy abilities you can mess with things and fit another attachment with space-bondo/space-duct tape. You as the Outlaw Tech may be fine and know how to handle a weapon sight that is like that but the average person couldn't. Also what is to stop 2 Outlaw techs working together to double boost an item? It only says they can do it once, that means if you have 3 Outlaw Techs and use the "can transfer it to another Player" rule you can add 3 HPs to it.

You can see how that can spiral out of control really fast. Suddenly it is "The Mask" style craziness and you gave up on being reasonable.

Check the description again. Tinkerer can only be applied to a single item once at a time.

Funny, I did read it. Did you? Per the wording it says the Tinkerer can only apply it once per item. Soon as it is a different Tinkerer, he has never applied it to that item, thus they could apply it, adding 1 additional (or 2 over the original threshold).

This is the bad idea/spiral that allowing the Tinkerer to transfer the item allows for.

What seems more likely is due to your crazy abilities you can mess with things and fit another attachment with space-bondo/space-duct tape. You as the Outlaw Tech may be fine and know how to handle a weapon sight that is like that but the average person couldn't. Also what is to stop 2 Outlaw techs working together to double boost an item? It only says they can do it once, that means if you have 3 Outlaw Techs and use the "can transfer it to another Player" rule you can add 3 HPs to it.

You can see how that can spiral out of control really fast. Suddenly it is "The Mask" style craziness and you gave up on being reasonable.

Check the description again. Tinkerer can only be applied to a single item once at a time.

It's just as easy to interpret it to say that each Tinkerer can apply it once.

That is the whole thing I am advocating against. You would have to change the text to "Each item can only be modified once regardless of how many Characters with the Tinkerer talent are around". Even with that it is a bad idea to allow it to be transferred.

I would make the "loss" as "soon as it is removed from the character's sheet". So if it was given away to someone else... the mod slot is gone, but if it is left on the ship it is still there (unless it is stolen/borrowed/etc by another character at which point it is "lost").

Giving away does not equal losing something. I suppose RAW the HPs could stack, of course that means each Tinkerer in the polka line giving up one of their Tinkerer slots imo, as they certainly don't lose something they give away or sell.

Honestly though, what's the sanity level? Is there's some solid uber-mod build that doesn't require like 8 Tinkeres?

Giving away does not equal losing something. I suppose RAW the HPs could stack, of course that means each Tinkerer in the polka line giving up one of their Tinkerer slots imo, as they certainly don't lose something they give away or sell.

??? that takes it a whole different kind of crazy. You say that if they sold it, they still own it? That is DRM style thinking that the software/music/movie/etc industry loves but nope.

I fit more by "possession is 9 / 10ths of the law" kind of thinking. If you are holding it for more than a scene it is now in your character sheet and not the original owner. The original owner removes it from their sheet (aka it is lost) and they get to mod a new item. The original item loses the additional mod slot. The Outlaw tech sees where they can manipulate the weapon/armor/gear so it can fit something, but he also knows how to hold it with that method.

Also nowhere is it RAW that HPs could stack. It is not handled in RAW and it is the potential issue if people add that it can be transferred to another person.

Take this scenario;

Tinkerer A applies Tinkerer to item A.

Tinkerer A then gives the item to Tinkerer B.

Tinkerer B applies Tinkerer to item A.

Tinkerer B then gives item to Tinkerer C.

Tinkerer C applies Tinkerer to item A.

Tinkerer C then gives item back to Tinkerer A.

Tinkerer B/C die.

Tinkerer A has an item with 3 additional mod slots and technically B/C never "lost it" it can just never go back to them.

This is how power-gamer/min-max/munchkin people think. You give them a little bit of an inch of rope they will have enough to hang you with it. That isn't creativity at that point it is deliberately gaming the system trying to push through a rule that isn't RAW.