Ispher said:
For the subject at hand, it actually doesn't matter if equipping is an action or not. The only thing that matters is if it equipping is an effect or not. Here's a reminder of what the FAQ says:
Question of timing
Antistone said:
You are assuming that the text means "after equipping this item at the start of your turn." It is also a perfectly valid reading to interpret that as "after the 'equip items' phase at the start of your turn", indicating when you can use it. And of course you cannot use any item unless it's equipped, that's part of the core rules and doesn't need to be specified on every single card.
I indeed always assumed "after equipping at the start of your turn" referred to the item. Never thought about the possibility that it could mean the equipping step: it just didn't cross my mind! Better late than never I guess.
Thanks for pointing it out!
Corbon said:
Ispher said:
For the subject at hand, it actually doesn't matter if equipping is an action or not. The only thing that matters is if it equipping is an effect or not. Here's a reminder of what the FAQ says:
I addressed this already (second paragraph of answer #17 in this thread).
Even if you don't agree, it would be polite to at least acknowledge the argument against rather than simply restating a case that has already been countered.
Sorry for the lack of acknowledgement, but I didn't want to go on writing on this thread forever...
Apparently you didn't counter effectively enough to have me convinced!
Ispher said:
The player must resolve all “start of turn” effects before proceeding with the rest of his turn.
Like most of these rules debates, I think this is being taken out of context. I dont think the intent in writing "must resolve all start of turn effects before proceeding" meant you had to resolve start of turn "effects" before the start of turn "other stuff" like using a Crystal of Tival, which is also at the start of turn. What is the point of evaluating a Burn or a Bleed first? None. The only impact is if the hero has something he can "do" at the start of his turn that might make a difference.
I think just the word choice here of the informal word "effects" leads to a conflict where "effects" are coincidentally used to designate the actual game term "Lingering Effects" like burn and bleed. Perhaps the wording would have been more appropriately "the player must resolve all start of turn stuff" before proceeding. The intent here, is that you have to resolve stuff that happens at the start of turn, before proceeding w say movement or attacks. As in "no, you cant wait till the end of your turn, attack first, and then roll the bleed".
I do NOT believe that rule was written w the thought about how it would interact with Crystal of Tival, nor is the purpose of that line to say that the lingering effects definitely must happen before the Crystal. They all happen "at the start of the turn" and a player gets to choose the order of such start of turn effects ("stuff" - although "stuff" doesnt sound very good, so they used "effects").
I think that's all that line means. That you do the start of turn stuff before things like moving or attacking. While yes I can certainly see the word "effects" causing some confusion, one needs to always remember the manual is written in plain english on a 12-year-old level, not meant to be interpreted with such granularity over specific word choices.
This is not to say I disagree w the RAW analyses, I do... They are correct if you look strictly at the word "effect" but when you take it in context and read it as a sentence and get the jist of the rule, you realize it was not meant to be read on such a technical level. Like most rulebooks.
My take, based on a common sense read, is that it's player-choice, per the line about how a player chooses the order in which to evaluate the start of turn occurrences. (effects)
Next, the analysis of the "Start of Turn" being exactly "Step 2" is slightly flawed, because if they meant you had to do these things during Step 2, they'd SAY "do this during step 2". Instead, the writers (deliberately?) used the slightly more vague wording of "at the start of your turn", and additionally gave the hero the option to choose how he wants to order those things. They dont necessarily occur at any particular step, tho one can most certainly point out what steps things do happen at. There is no specific correllation between "at the start of your turn" and "step 2" other than incidental.
Ispher said:
Sorry for the lack of acknowledgement, but I didn't want to go on writing on this thread forever...
Apparently you didn't counter effectively enough to have me convinced!
Apparently you didn't counter effectively enough to have me convinced!
Not agreeing or being unconvinced is perfectly acceptable.
It merely demonstrates a lack of intellect (huge
!)
Restating a position while gnoring a counter argument entirely makes it look like you missed it completely and invites a counter restatement - thus turning a thread into a 'he says she says, he says she says' mess.
poobaloo said:
Ispher said:
The player must resolve all “start of turn” effects before proceeding with the rest of his turn.
Like most of these rules debates, I think this is being taken out of context. I dont think the intent in writing "must resolve all start of turn effects before proceeding" meant you had to resolve start of turn "effects" before the start of turn "other stuff" like using a Crystal of Tival, which is also at the start of turn. What is the point of evaluating a Burn or a Bleed first? None. The only impact is if the hero has something he can "do" at the start of his turn that might make a difference.
I think just the word choice here of the informal word "effects" leads to a conflict where "effects" are coincidentally used to designate the actual game term "Lingering Effects" like burn and bleed. Perhaps the wording would have been more appropriately "the player must resolve all start of turn stuff" before proceeding. The intent here, is that you have to resolve stuff that happens at the start of turn, before proceeding w say movement or attacks. As in "no, you cant wait till the end of your turn, attack first, and then roll the bleed".
I do NOT believe that rule was written w the thought about how it would interact with Crystal of Tival, nor is the purpose of that line to say that the lingering effects definitely must happen before the Crystal. They all happen "at the start of the turn" and a player gets to choose the order of such start of turn effects ("stuff" - although "stuff" doesnt sound very good, so they used "effects").
I think that's all that line means. That you do the start of turn stuff before things like moving or attacking. While yes I can certainly see the word "effects" causing some confusion, one needs to always remember the manual is written in plain english on a 12-year-old level, not meant to be interpreted with such granularity over specific word choices.
This is not to say I disagree w the RAW analyses, I do... They are correct if you look strictly at the word "effect" but when you take it in context and read it as a sentence and get the jist of the rule, you realize it was not meant to be read on such a technical level. Like most rulebooks.
My take, based on a common sense read, is that it's player-choice, per the line about how a player chooses the order in which to evaluate the start of turn occurrences. (effects)
Next, the analysis of the "Start of Turn" being exactly "Step 2" is slightly flawed, because if they meant you had to do these things during Step 2, they'd SAY "do this during step 2". Instead, the writers (deliberately?) used the slightly more vague wording of "at the start of your turn", and additionally gave the hero the option to choose how he wants to order those things. They dont necessarily occur at any particular step, tho one can most certainly point out what steps things do happen at. There is no specific correllation between "at the start of your turn" and "step 2" other than incidental.
You say, "I want to play the intent game' and come to the result A.
I say, "I refuse to play the intent game" (extrapolating out from a very specifc FAQ answer) and come to the same result A.
With our history, agreement must be significant!
The step 2
only
thing is actually for the OL. He is not allowed to play 'start of turn' cards until he has completed the final part of step 1. He is not allowed to play 'start of turn' cards once he has begun the first part of step 3. Effectively (as opposed to officially), that makes his start of turn just step 2.
The hero's 'start of turn' is not defined. However from Crystal of Tival and similar we know that 'start of turn' must include 'after equipping' (which is in step 2) and from the OL's instructions on Event cards which are played at the hero's start of turn we know that 'Start of turn' cards can be played any time before the hero takes (declares, effectively) his action (step 3).