So here's what happened. It's the start of of one of the hero's turn. He has 2 burn tokens and 1hp left. He has a Crystal of Tival equiped from last round. How would these chain of evens go. would it be......

A: The Crystal of Tival gets discard and he gets 6hp and restore his fatigue. Saving him from burning to death if he fails to roll any surges.

B.He must roll for the burn tokens and if he fails. He burns before the Crystal of Tival can save him.

C.We are using the item wrong and if this is the case can you give me an example of the items correct use.

Alight, i just realize that the hero can't have the item equiped for a whole round. He would have to discard it after equping during step:1 of his turn(the equip item step). So i'll refrase my question. Canthe hero equip the Crystal of Tival (Discard after equipping at the start of your turn to recover 6 wounds and restore your fatigue to its maxiumun value) and discard it before rolling for burn token damage to save himelf?

The Art Guy said:

FAQ pg 4
Q: What is the proper timing of events that occur “at the beginning of a player’s turn”?
A: When multiple events may occur “at the beginning of a player’s turn,” such as a hero affected by multiple different status effects like Burn and Bleed, that player may decide in which order to resolve them. The player must resolve all “start of turn” effects before proceeding with the rest of his turn

I won't go through all the arguments but it is apparent form several interactions that 'start of turn' includes steps 1&2 for heroes (refresh and re-equip) and steps 1&2 (draw cards and threat and spawn monsters) for OLs. In fact the OL one is specific on pg 9:
Important: The overlord may play cards that say “Play at the start of your turn” any time before activating his first monster for the turn.

Therefore the answer is A, assuming the wording for the crystal says something like 'discard before/after equipping at the start of your turn to ...'

And he can have it equipped for a whole round. There is no equipping restriction, just a discard restriction. You don't have to have only just equiped it to discard, you have to have already completed your re-equip step (ie, you can't discard it first, then do your requip step, so the turn you use it you will have an empty 'other' slot where it was).

Thanks for clairifying that for me. The hero player went ahead and roll for the burn tokens first. He rolled one surge and one other but had a cloak of mist on and rolled a surge to pervent the damge so he still got to use the Crystal. So it still worked out for him in the end.=)

Corbon said:

Sorry, but I do not see why your argument is true. In the quote from the FAQ, it is clearly stated that first all Burn or Bleed effects have to be resolved, and then the hero may proceed with other actions.

From a logical point of view, the hero is bleeding/burning for quite a while now, and first you have to check if you survived this, because you cannot equip anything if you are dead. In my opinion, it would be against the spirit of the game, which is always the way we in our group decide when an unclear part in the rules show up.

So, I cannot see from your statement why your decision is true, but as you said, there are arguments you have not mentioned yet, so please tell us about those. The OL start of turn and the hero start of turn is in my opinion not working, as you are comparing two totally different things here (at least from my points of view).

We normally play that start of turn effects happens before anything else the hero does. Before he can refresh a shield, before he could equip (or discard) a vial, before he declares an action, before he could drink a potion, etc...

The only exception is multiple "beginning of next turn stuff"; like a rest order on a bleeding hero. In such a case the hero could choose to remove the rest order, recovering his fatigue, before removing the bleed token and probably taking damage.

snacknuts said:

But if the card has at the start of turn would it be resloved at the same time bleed, burn or other start of turn effects reslove. The Crystal of Tevil does have that in his text (Discard after equipping at the start of your turn to recover 6 wounds and restore your fatigue to its maximum value) and if the item is equipped already from last round. Would'nt the hero be able to discard it before burn or bleed?

Here's the solution to the problem.

Given that:

1) All beginning of turn effects must resolve before the turn proceeds, and that

2a) Something that happens after one beginning of turn effect/action happens after all beginning of turn effects/actions, or, rephrased:

2b) Something that happens after a beginning of the turn effect/action is actually an "early in the turn but after the beginning" effect, or, rephrased a second time:

2c) Something that happens after the beginning is later than the beginning, thus not the beginning anylonger,

the Crystal of Tival can be equipped before other beginning of turn effects, but will be discarded after all beginning of turn effects have resolved because it states: "Discard after equipping at the start of your turn," which is: "Do something after a start of turn action."

Thus, here is how it would work if you choose to equip it with 1 life and burn/bleed counters on you:

a) You equip the Crystal at the start of your turn;

b) You die horribly because of your bleed/burn tokens;

c) You ressurect at the temple, where you now have to discard the Crystal of Tival because you equipped it at the start of the turn. You heal of zero life because you are already fully healed. Tough luck.

Ispher said:

Even assuming your timing on the crystal is correct, I see no reason that you would need to equip it before rolling for Bleed/Burn (as opposed to rolling and then doing your start-of-turn re-equip), no reason that you would be required to use it after equipping it under any circumstances, and no way that you could use it after resurrecting even if you wanted to, since dying during your turn causes your turn to immediately end.

Argur said:

I'm sorry that I can't remember all the different arguments (and the search function is impossible, assuming that the discussion was held on this forum), but I'll try.

The first point has been brought up already, indirectly and accidentally.
The Crystal of Tival (and other similar items) says "Discard after equipping at the start of your turn" (using Art Guy's quote since I don;t have the card handy.
Whichever way you read that it clearly indicates that equipping is at (or during) the 'start of your turn'. Either you discard at the start of your turn but after equipping (which is step 2, so step 1 and 2 must both be part of start of turn in exactly the same way they are for the OL) or you must discard after 'equipping at the start of your turn' (which is step 2 so step 2 must be part of 'start of turn' and therefore also step 1).

That neatly ties in with the second point which is game consistency. The OL's 'start of turn' is explicitly considered to be everything before he activates his first monster (eg, step 1 and step 2). Basically steps 1 and 2 are 'book-keeping steps (actually slightly more for the OL) and both fall under the general heading 'start of turn' even though they have their own specifc order within that 'start of turn' section.
The Heroes 'start of turn' is not explicitly defined. In the absence of a definition it is reasonable to expect it to be similar to the OL's definition. That actually neatly ties everything in to. The first two steps of a hero's turn are also 2 'book-keeping' steps (even more so than the OL's) and the third step is where the hero figure actually gets 'activated' (must declare it's order and may then begin moving/attacking etc).

Your own argument of logical point of view is inconsistent. The monsters have exactly the same issue as the ones you brought up yet it is seemingly no problem? The OL gets to play 'start of turn' cards (including cards which heal monsters of wounds and/or tokens) before those monsters suffer from the effects. It is only logical that the heroes have the same opportunities and base methodology.
Further, both sides have the ability to mess the system slightly anyway by activating damaged figures last. So, for example, the 'about-to-die' Master Beastman still gets to give Command to all his compatriots, effectively for the entire turn, as does the Blessing-endowed 'about-to-die' hero.

You say that the OL and Hero start of turn are two different things and cannot be compared. Why?
One has been clearly defined, the other completely undefined. Is there any particular reason why the definition for the first should not also apply to the second? Apart from resolving this issue, it is very neat and tidy, makes both 'sides' the same and removes a number of similar problems that quite simply don;t have answers.

From the GLoAQ:

Q: "There are three treasures that offer one-time healing to a hero: Jinn's Lamp, Amulet of Healing, and Crystal of Tival. All three say "Discard after equipping at the start of your turn..."... Should "at the start of your turn" just be ignored, or does it have some other significance?"

A: It can only be used at the start of your turn after Step 2: Equip Items. The result is that you will have only 1 Other item (if any) equipped.

I guess since Burn and Bleed are resolved even before Step 1 (Refresh cards), the original question is answered.

Antistone said:

You don't need to do so. I was just described the scenario if one (dumbly) did so. Obviously it would be better to roll for Bleed/Burn first.

Antistone said:

Yes you would. The text on the Crystal of Tival is: "Discard after equipping at the start of your turn," not "You may discard after equipping at the start of your turn." The discard is thus mandatory . You cannot run around with an equipped Crystal of Tival for consecutive turns.

Antistone said:

It wouldn't be something you do; it would be something that would happen because it is triggered, like going to the temple and regaining all your life and fatigue is an effect that is triggered when you die.

However all my reasoning is indeed wrong, since Parathion pointed out that equipping items only happens in step 2, after beginning-of-turn effects have taken place. Tough luck.

Parathion said:

Umm, no they aren't.

They are resolved 'at the start of your turn'. And all effects 'at the start of turn' can be resolved in any order desired.
The answer clearly indicates that the 'start of your turn' is still continuing past Step 2. This exactly tallies with the clear and explicit rule for OL 'start of turn' which says that any 'start of turn' card may be played any time before step 3 is begun.

Quite clearly, 'start of turn' lasts until step 3 is begun, for both sides.

Ispher said:

1. The discard is only mandatory if you use it. You can equip an item without using it - indeed, many equipped items are not used at all on many turns.

2. And Parathion didn't even read his own quote properly. The exact quote clearly indicates that the 'start of turn' is after step 2 (just as it is for the OL).

I finally decided to check the FAQ and found the answer:

" Q: What is the proper timing of events that occur “at the beginning of a player’s turn”?
A: When multiple events may occur “at the beginning of a player’s turn,” such as a hero affected by multiple different status effects like Burn and Bleed, that player may decide in which order to resolve them. The player must resolve all “start of turn” effects before proceeding with the rest of his turn."

The key sentence is: "The player must resolve all “start of turn” effects before proceeding with the rest of his turn."

Equipping is not an effect , it is an action . It follows that since all "start of turn" effects must resolve before proceeding with the rest of the turn (before any actions are taken, obviously), Burn and Bleed tokens (and Rest, etc.) resolve before one has a chance to equip.

Corbon said:

Particular card requirements take precedence over general rules. If a card says, "do this after doing that," if you do that, you have to do this.

If you equip the Crystal of Tival at the beginning of your turn, you have to discard it. The instructions are on the card.

Ispher said:

IIRC, it says " Discard ... to recover 6 wounds and restore your fatigue to maximum," or something to that effect. That means you have to discard it if you want the effect, not that discarding it is mandatory.

Similar to a shield saying "exhaust to cancel 1 received wound." That doesn't mean you must exhaust it continuously at every opportunity, it means that you need to exhaust it when you choose to use it's wound-canceling effect.

Or Quick Casting, which I believe says something like "Exhaust and spend 2 fatigue after making a magic attack to immediately make another attack." That doesn't mean you are required to exhaust the skill and spend fatigue after every magic attack you ever make, it means you need to do that when you choose to receive the skill's benefit.

The wording on the card could be read at least two ways.

A. Discard (at your discretion) after [equipping at the start of your turn]. I use brackets to suggest possible inferred conections.

B. [Discard after equipping] at the start of your turn. Here the "Discard after equipping" is assumed to essentially be ONE action which must be completed in it's entirety before it begins or ceases to be resolved.

Alternatively, one may argue the idea that perhaps the bleed/burn damage and the Crystal's healing both occur simultaneously and the OL must patiently let the player affected exercise his/her perogative to determine the order. Just as they must do on the OL's turn from time to time.

Just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Ispher said:

'Start of turn' is actually a long sequence that includes both step 1, step 2 and opportunities to play cards before and after each step..
This is explicit for the OL.
This is not explicit for the heroes. However the Crystal of Tival clearly shows that equipping (step 2) is sometimes before or during events described as 'start of turn' ("discard after equipping at the start of your turn " or "discard after equipping at the start of your turn "). Thus what is explicit for the OL is also, independently, implicit for the Hero and both sides actually have the same rule.

The effects vs actions is a new angle (well done!) but doesn't change necessarily anything.
First, 'rest of turn' could, both literally and common speech-ily, equally describe everything that is not 'start of turn' as everything that is not 'effects'.
Second, actions are what you declare in step 3. everything else is book-keeping and effects, not actions. Equipping in step 2 is not an action. It is also not an effect though...
Third, this is a case where the answer is exactly in step with the question. The answer, unfortunately, directly refers to the question which gave the example of multiple effects happening at the start of turn. A better (more expansive) question might have included refreshing and equipping (steps 1 and 2) in the answer and then we would have a more definitive result. Sometimes we get a good answer that expands beyond the original question and we can use that answer to resolve wider issues. Sometimes, like this time, we get an answer precisely tailored to the question and we just don;t know is we can use that answer to resolve wider issues (which incidentally is why I am all for thrashing out questions on this forum first and them tailoring the exact questions to fit wide issues before sending them to FFG).

Having said all that, I am not against the general idea of all effects (from lingering effect tokens) resolving before any other 'start of turn' effects, as long as it applies equally to both sides. However I don;t think that one FAQ answer that specifically and exactly answers the question asked is enough evidence to extrapolate wider inferences from.

XmenDynasty said:

Both A and B have the result that equipping (step 2) is part of 'start of your turn'. This implies very strongly that 'start of turn' for the heroes means exactly the same thing as does 'start of turn' for the OL - who can explicity play any 'start of turn' card any time before his first monster activation (eg, any time before step 3).

Antistone said:

+1
"Do A to get B" is not a requirement to do A, it is a cost to get B. "Do A and get B" is a requirement (that has a benefit).

Corbon said:

Unfortunately, it is an action. Because "action" is one of those words that they can't resist using to refer to a bunch of different things even after they've given it a technical definition.

"Movement actions", at a minimum, are described with the word "action" despite not being (what I will call for this discussion) "full actions" like Advance, Battle, etc., and re-equipping is a movement action (in addition to being something you can do for free at the start of each turn). And don't forget prolonged actions, which do not precisely correspond to full actions, half-actions, or to prolonged orders .

There is also a strong temptation to refer to every thing a figure does as part of its turn as an "action," including movement, rolling for encounter markers, exhausting skills, etc.--I am not certain that the writers have ever used the word "action" in that way, but I wouldn't be surprised if they have, and we have no other obvious word for referring to that broad category of...things. What can't you do first when a card says "immediately?" To say you can't do anything is not really true, because you can use interrupt effects (like feat cards, exhausting shields, etc.). What do you call the things you can do that aren't interrupt ffects?

This is considerably more confused than the word "armor," which we can at least limit to two clear and precise meanings.

(Apparently, if there's a new post between when you hit quote and when you hit post, it nicely warns you that you might want to read the latest response before posting. Unfortunately, it also puts the entire post you're quoting at the front of your post (in addition to any part of it that you were already quoting), thereby stealthily screwing up the post you just wrote if you try to post it without editing further. And then when you see your mistake after posting and hit "edit," it breaks any quote blocks you actually wanted. How hard is it to get forum software with vaguely sane behavior in common use-cases, really?)

Antistone said:

Re-equipping is a movement action, yes, which guess makes it a type of action if not a type of Action.

But neither refreshing (step 1) nor equipping (step 2) are ever, in any way, refered to as actions.

I don't have the base rules pdf on this pc but having checked the FAQ for every instance of the word 'action', every single time the reference is either to a movement action (as in re-equiping, opening doors etc), an Action (as in the four possible declared actions in step 3) or a weekly move/train/siege action for a Lt/Hero party in RtL. I checked the DJitD rulebook by hand (a very fallible method). I didn't find any uses of the word 'action' that refered to anything except movement actions or declared actions. (I did find two something elses significant, one an old rule I always knew but never applied to this situation, the other a rule I never noticed before - see below *, **).
The casual use of the word action by some or even all players for things that are not officially actions is not sufficient to make them actions. (It may, OTOH, cause them to make incorrect rule assumptions!)

*One thing that has been slightly missed by me at least is that the 'start of turn' phase for the overlord does not in fact include all of step 1 .
Since the OL is specifically not allowed to play 'start of turn' cards until he has drawn threat, drawn cards and discarded down to his hand size (DJitD pg18). This effectively means that 'start of turn' for the OL means 'between step 1 and step 3'. There is nothing more in step 1 after discarding down to maximum hand size (and the OL can't play before start of turn cards before then). There is nothing before activating the first monster in step 3 (and the OL can't play any cards after that).
Thats actually really strange. Officially, the 'start of turn' phase for the OL is basically step 2 of his turn!

**Further, "Event cards that say "Play immediately before a hero takes his turn" can be played until the hero player takes his action" (DJitD pg 18).
Therefore, until the hero takes his action (step 3), it is still officially 'before the hero has begun his turn'. This is further evidence that 'start of turn' stuff can be played any time before step 3 for heroes.

For the subject at hand, it actually doesn't matter if equipping is an action or not. The only thing that matters is if it equipping is an effect or not. Here's a reminder of what the FAQ says:

The player must resolve all “start of turn” effects before proceeding with the rest of his turn.

Whatever equipping is, it is for sure NOT an effect. Therefore, a hero can equip only AFTER effects like Burn, Bleed, etc. have resolved, because he can proceed with his turn only after he has resolved all "start of turn" effects.

Here is another interesting quote from the FAQ:

When can a hero equip items?

A hero can equip [...] at the beginning of his turn, just after refreshing cards.

Thus, we now have the official (i.e. deduced from FAQ answers) order for "beginning of the turn" stuff:

1. Resolve all effects (because they must be resolved before the rest of the turn);

2. Refresh (because it is before equipping but after resolving effects);

3. Equip or unequip stuff.

This is interesting because it showed me something I didn't know: you can't use Skull Shield to prevent damage from Burn or Bleed if you exhausted it the turn before, because it will refresh only after these effects have resolved.

Corbon said:

I indeed thought that when you equipped the Crystal of Tival, you started paying half of the cost (which is: "discard after equipping at the start of your turn"), and once you've paid one half of the cost, you must pay the other half... Just like when you pay 2 fatigue for Quick Casting, you also have to exhaust the card. If it isn't so, my bad.

I must admit that I never thought about equipping the Crystal of Tival without using it immediately, because, if you don't use it right after equipping, as long as you have it equipped... You can't use it!

To get the benefit of the Crystal (recover 6 wounds and all your fatigue), you indeed need to pay the whole cost, which is "discard after equipping at the start of your turn". If you have it equipped for a couple of turns and suddenly want to use it, you can't because you didn't equip it at the start of your turn! So you first have to unequip it, and then equip it again to use it. This is weird and doesn't make much sense, hence my assumption that "Discard after equipping at the start of your turn" was, in the case of this card, a cost that could not be divided.

You are assuming that the text means "after equipping this item at the start of your turn." It is also a perfectly valid reading to interpret that as "after the 'equip items' phase at the start of your turn", indicating when you can use it. And of course you cannot use any item unless it's equipped, that's part of the core rules and doesn't need to be specified on every single card.

Even under the first reading, though, it's still highly dubious to conclude that you would be unable to use it if it were previously equipped; it doesn't say "immediately" after equipping, so doing stuff between when you equip it and when you discard it may be perfectly acceptable. Furthermore, re-equipping always allows you to rearrange your equipment as much as you want, so one could argue that you should be able to remove it and then equip it again all as part of a single "re-equip," thereby side-stepping the entire issue.

In any event, equipping it isn't part of the "cost." When Quick Casting says "exhaust and spend 2 fatigue after performing a magic attack" (or something like that), "after performing a magic attack" isn't part of the cost, it's the precondition. You aren't obligated to use the card every time you perform a magic attack.

And even if equipping it were part of the cost, it's something that the rules normally allow you to do without any special rules or cards coming into play, so I would still see no reason you couldn't pay "half the cost." You can either choose to use the card's special effect (in which case you must follow all the instructions) or not. If you don't choose to use the card's special effect, then you aren't obligated to carefully make sure you don't do anything that you would normally be allowed to do but which is somehow related to the card's special effect and therefore might superficially resemble beginning to use the card. Equipping an item is something that you can normally do; there would need to be special text specifically prohibiting you from equipping the item in order to stop you.