I'm curious what people think will happen to the meta favorite RAC+Fel when the Raider (or rather TAx1+ATC) is available. A Vader build like this one seems like an obvious candidate to replace Fel:

Darth Vader (29)

Determination (1)

Advanced Targeting Computer (1)

Engine Upgrade (4)

TIE/x1 (0)

Total: 35

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

It's better offensively against two ship lists where the target lock can stick on one ship for a while (autocrit is better than the 3rd red die), but I think it suffers defensively (no autothrusters, no stealth device, no extra focus when doing BR+boost). Of course, determination and the two shields help there. Vader always has his entire dial, too, but suffers more from Rebel Captive and Panic Attack.

Personally I think that Fel's consistency from AT, SD and the extra focus mean that Vader is going to be less successful, but we'll see a lot of people trying it out.

What do you think?

(And while off-topic, I think that Fel+Vader+30ish points of something else is going to be very, very popular for a while).

Frankly, I would be surprised if I didn't see this become a thing.

Whichever trumps the other in MathWingz will be the Decimator's escort. Kinda like asking which lady has the most appealing measurements.

I'm curious what people think will happen to the meta favorite RAC+Fel when the Raider (or rather TAx1+ATC) is available. A Vader build like this one seems like an obvious candidate to replace Fel:Darth Vader (29)Determination (1)Advanced Targeting Computer (1)Engine Upgrade (4)TIE/x1 (0)Total: 35View in Yet Another Squad BuilderIt's better offensively against two ship lists where the target lock can stick on one ship for a while (autocrit is better than the 3rd red die), but I think it suffers defensively (no autothrusters, no stealth device, no extra focus when doing BR+boost). Of course, determination and the two shields help there. Vader always has his entire dial, too, but suffers more from Rebel Captive and Panic Attack.Personally I think that Fel's consistency from AT, SD and the extra focus mean that Vader is going to be less successful, but we'll see a lot of people trying it out.What do you think?(And while off-topic, I think that Fel+Vader+30ish points of something else is going to be very, very popular for a while).

I definitely plan to run Fel, Vader, and an Emperor Shuttle at 99 points. AutoFel, Vader with ATC, Calculation, Engine Upgrade, and an OGP with Palpatine. Soontir does Soontir things, Vader rolls 3 crits a turn

Depends. They play differently. Vader has a worse dial but can use the entire white freely, giving him more options than a full PTL Fel. The need to lock will eat into his actions. He deals higher damage but needs to consistently lock on, strengthening him against 2 ship groups but weakening him against full squadrons. He's less agile in terms of defence dice but has extra health to make up for it: he's not going to die as easily to his crew doppelganger. He crits, which large ships hate. He's got a free choice of EPTs and Fel doesn't, giving him plenty of options, and VI is one of them for killing phantoms and Fel.

I'd take Fel against a swarm and Vader against a large ship. In a vacuum they've both got their strengths, against what tends to be flown at the moment Vader'll have a hefty advantage over Fel.

That's a good point about taking VI to win the sorta-mirror PS battle.

Determination seems like it wouldn't help most games, especially with only 3 hull. I think I'd rather run VI and shoot before pretty much anybody else.

I'm sure some folks will jump on VI Juno with ATC. Crazy dial options, arguably allowing for builds without Engine to keep the points/slots open for different mods and/or missiles.

I do think Fel/Chirpy is a better combo on paper in a lot of ways, since Fel can protect a Stealth Device very effectively. Allows him to occasionally try things a regular 3 agility ship wouldn't dare.

If he does I'm flying Kagi every day.

But really I think the Emperor and stealth device play so well together that Fel/Kenkirk is THE thing after Raider drops.

I think the TIE Advanced in general will see a ton of play once the raider comes out.

Vader+Decimator seems like a likely build, but I'm curious to try out a Tie Advanced swarm, with either Accuracy Correctors or ATC.

It might be a favorite for those that fly B swarms. Lower health, but better dial, 3 agility, evade action, and consistent damage.

I already bought 2 extra Tie Adv so I have 4 when the Raider comes out, definitely will be worth playtesting.

No because an Autothruster Soontir is much better than Vader when paired with a Decimator.

They're both really good options. Interestingly enough, assuming Vader gets shots on Soontir, I think he wins the fight... eventually.

They both can be very tanky but Soontir can get three tokens where Vader can get two. That's more significant than it seems... but Vader's extra hit points will help him in the attrition battle.

However, Soontir can do so much for what he is and doesn't have to rely on having a target lock (of course, if the two ship meta continues, that's not a huge downside).

Depends on how Vader's built, honestly. They are both strong in very similar ways, but Vader's build has not yet become concrete.

Yes, he's taking TIE/x1 and Advanced Targeting Computer. However, both his Elite Talent and his Modification are up for grabs.

And he can take a Proton Rocket to boot.

Possible Viable Elite Talents:

Determination

With a high mitigation, the odds of being dealt a face-up card increase. Moreover, if you reduce Vader to PS 0, or lose his pilot ability, you lose a lot about the ship. Determination blocks those crits (and a few more).

Expert Handling

Quite often, a Target Lock will be the only viable action the enemy will have at their disposal while out-maneuvered. You will be barrel-rolling quite often. This lets you completely wreck their action economy as a flanker, without actually changing your state of play.

Lone Wolf

One of the strongest contenders. LW, offensively, is usually as good as Predator, as low PS ships aren't popular at the moment and Vader will likely have a Focus token. Defensively, it's not as powerful as Autothrusters, but it's also less circumstantial.

Daredevil

For use with Engine Upgrades only here, but is very potent on the man. This upgrade will let you outmaneuver even Fel.

Outmaneuver

Useful against every ship except the Decimator, and will give you a great advantage when fighting against Fel or fellow Vaders. You're naturally mobile enough to take advantage of this.

Predator

Damage is Damage. This isn't as circumstantial as Lone Wolf, and can wreck low-PS pilots when they finally come back to pick on your decimator. However, does nothing to give you added defense or mobility, which is where your godhood lies.

Ruthlessness

A promise that you will outfly your opponent. Damage is Damage, but unlike Predator's re-rolls, this one straight up adds 1 damage to your attack. If it hits. And can apply that 1 damage to your fleet instead.

Possible Viable Modifications

Stealth Device

Good enough for Fel, Good enough for Vader. 4 Agility with 2 actions is hard to kill, even if you can get a shot on it. Pairs very well with Lone Wolf.

Engine Upgrade

Oh right, Vader doesn't naturally have boost. This maximizes your arc-dodge and chase potential.

Not going to happen, simply because the Raider has been cancelled and FFG just won't admit it.

My ultimate answer, though, is that Vader feels like he hunts different people than Fel does.
Vader picks a target, and can harry them through the worlds.
Fel floats around doing whatever he wants, until he wants a kill, when he darts in and out with total impunity.

Whisper isn't really played anymore, sadly.

Still, a list with all three... that could be sinister.

If he does I'm flying Kagi every day.

But really I think the Emperor and stealth device play so well together that Fel/Kenkirk is THE thing after Raider drops.

I may eat my words on this one, but I don't think Kenkirk with the Emperor is going to be much more than an inferior Fat Han. The versatility of the Emperor may make it work, but I’m not expecting it.

On topic: I fell in with Fel during the store championship season. In theory it seems like Vader could be a direct replacement for Fel, but I’ve been trying out Vader with EU on Vassal and I’m amazed out how different they fly.

If he does I'm flying Kagi every day.

But really I think the Emperor and stealth device play so well together that Fel/Kenkirk is THE thing after Raider drops.

I may eat my words on this one, but I don't think Kenkirk with the Emperor is going to be much more than an inferior Fat Han. The versatility of the Emperor may make it work, but I’m not expecting it.

On topic: I fell in with Fel during the store championship season. In theory it seems like Vader could be a direct replacement for Fel, but I’ve been trying out Vader with EU on Vassal and I’m amazed out how different they fly.

I agree about Kenkirk.

What is so different about Vader when you fly him?

I still don't see why fel and chirpy are the thing, I love fel, but found that carnor compliments him better,

run fel and chirpy against carnor and chirpy, see who wins.

my carnor and chirpy is now 10 and 2, losses were to 4 y-wing warthogs (**** ion guns) and a swarm list that I played again in the semi finals and beat.

carnor is fels worse day, blocks focus and evade, or forces fel to use boost and barrel roll to avoid carnors effects leaving him with just 1 focus token. do you use the focus for offense or on defense against chirpy turret? and if he doesn't get out of range the focus he gets for stress (he would get it because its not a focus action) is useless because of carnor.

as a wing man, carnor is the guy, I cant tell you how many people were frustrated when the defense dice came up eye ball when carnor was around and their ship died.

(And while off-topic, I think that Fel+Vader+30ish points of something else is going to be very, very popular for a while).

Can you even be off topic if you create the topic?

For my part i will try variations of RAC Vader and Advanced/Interceptor lists for sure. I also think that Vader is not at all less tanky than Fel, and even less risky to play. Especially with determination, he can survive a bump turn or bad luck and return fire while Soontir is long dead.

So yes, i think he will replace Fel. He is the nore reliable while not less powerful choice. And that's what counts for competitive play!

If he does I'm flying Kagi every day.

But really I think the Emperor and stealth device play so well together that Fel/Kenkirk is THE thing after Raider drops.

I may eat my words on this one, but I don't think Kenkirk with the Emperor is going to be much more than an inferior Fat Han. The versatility of the Emperor may make it work, but I’m not expecting it.

On topic: I fell in with Fel during the store championship season. In theory it seems like Vader could be a direct replacement for Fel, but I’ve been trying out Vader with EU on Vassal and I’m amazed out how different they fly.

My ultimate answer, though, is that Vader feels like he hunts different people than Fel does.

Vader picks a target, and can harry them through the worlds.

Fel floats around doing whatever he wants, until he wants a kill, when he darts in and out with total impunity.

Whisper isn't really played anymore, sadly.

Still, a list with all three... that could be sinister.

That was the very first thing i did when i learned about the advanced buff!

I amnot sad that Whisper took a nerf, it was well deserved, but i still want to see this 999 list fly, and i will try it. They seem to complement each other pretty well... So here my idea of such a list.

×

Order 999 (100)

Darth Vader — TIE Advanced 29

Determination 1

Advanced Targeting Computer 1

TIE/x1 0

Ship Total: 31

Soontir Fel — TIE Interceptor 27

Push the Limit 3

Autothrusters 2

Ship Total: 32

"Whisper" — TIE Phantom 32

Veteran Instincts 1

Advanced Cloaking Device 4

Ship Total: 37

this should be titled "will the emperor and vader kick chiraneau out of the cool kids club?"

and the answer is yes, yes they will

Determination seems like it wouldn't help most games, especially with only 3 hull. I think I'd rather run VI and shoot before pretty much anybody else.

There's also arc dodge only matched by other PS9's with VI. And other than Han the other Pilots have much stronger EPT options over VI; and even Han has stronger options than VI.

RAC escorts are cheap and disposable so that when they get destroyed they don't give MOV to the opponent. Vader is rather expensive. You want to count your escorts loss compared the your opponents escorts loss (usually around 3 Academy pilots) and come out 12 points on top.

Vader will definitely be used, but Fel and Vader fly very differently due to a few key differences.

Vader will not be as worried about stress since he is not reliant on PtL for two actions. Adding PtL creates a true triple-action beast where you can decide between three of the five actions he will have (assuming EU becomes the standard modification for Vader).

Vader has Shields. Since Doom-Decimators are the just about the #1 Counter to Auto-Fel, chances are that you will see them quite often. Doom variants are normally much less likely to trigger their Vader when you have shields remaining.

The Advanced cannot take Autothrusters, meaning that fear range 3 and out of arc shots will be cancelled.

I see Vader as a close in knife fighter against the Decimator while Fel will still be the Range 3 arc-dodging king.