Time to Necro this thread. Very circular. Very simple what has been asked. Do you have to declare you are spending both the dial and the token before you see the result of the dial add?

Yes.

Roll the attack. Then decide if you're using CF. Then decide which of the three "forms" of CF you're using (dial OR token OR both). Then resolve the CF effects (add and/or reroll) in any order.

You only need to declare if you are going to commit the CF Token at the time you commit the CF Dial. The option to use the token can be done at any point within modify dice step. ei. You don't have to reroll a die as you add a die. You can in fact reroll the added die. This is not and should not be considered two uses of the same Command. Its still just one Attack.

If you roll well, and announced the commitment of the CF Token, you are NOT required to use the Token but it will be expended as if used. I did not play it like this for practically a year. Two uses was interpreted as using the dial on one attack and the token on another. But after deliberation and answers from the devs (through email and not FAQ/Erata), I reversed my play practice to comply...because Rules is Rules. I didn't like it, and I don't have to. But playing correctly and as intended is whats important.

As an aside, I find it to be a double standard that you can observe the results of an Evade Defense Token use before deciding if a Brace or Redirect is in order, but a CF Token needs to be committed before seeing the CF Dial roll.

4 minutes ago, Versch said:

As an aside, I find it to be a double standard that you can observe the results of an Evade Defense Token use before deciding if a Brace or Redirect is in order, but a CF Token needs to be committed before seeing the CF Dial roll.

Well I concur, in my mind this and the squad command should let you add the token while you resolve the command, which would still count as a single resolution of the command (and I believe wouldn't contradict the RRG, I've never seen the rulings on that particular issue).

Nav command you get to play with the man tool before you decide what you spend, Eng command you get to count in your head before your decide what you spend. The "commitment" rationale has always seemed kinda weak to me. I fail to see how it would affect the balance all that much, and it would certainly add consistency (and get rid of a neverending source of missed opportunities).

But the going rate, for any command, is to spend both dial and token together. Then resolve.

This is consistent.

Otherwise you could have an interdictor repair a certain crit with its dial, then spend the token after for full effect.

And suddenly navigate would be the outlier.

36 minutes ago, Versch said:

You only need to declare if you are going to commit the CF Token at the time you commit the CF Dial. The option to use the token can be done at any point within modify dice step. ei. You don't have to reroll a die as you add a die. You can in fact reroll the added die. This is not and should not be considered two uses of the same Command. Its still just one Attack.

If you roll well, and announced the commitment of the CF Token, you are NOT required to use the Token but it will be expended as if used. I did not play it like this for practically a year. Two uses was interpreted as using the dial on one attack and the token on another. But after deliberation and answers from the devs (through email and not FAQ/Erata), I reversed my play practice to comply...because Rules is Rules. I didn't like it, and I don't have to. But playing correctly and as intended is whats important.

As an aside, I find it to be a double standard that you can observe the results of an Evade Defense Token use before deciding if a Brace or Redirect is in order, but a CF Token needs to be committed before seeing the CF Dial roll.

I don't think this is what was being asked. No one is disputing whether you have to spend both at the same time, or if you have to reroll or add a die. But if you spend a token and the dial, do you have to resolve them back to back? So you can't do this:

1. Roll attack pool (3 black, 2 blue)
2. Spend CF dial/token
3. Add black dice
4. Use OE to reroll 4 blacks
5. Reroll another black with CF token

You should actually be doing this:

1. Roll attack pool (3 black, 2 blue)
2. Spend CF dial/token
3. Add black dice
4. Reroll black with CF token
5. Use OE to reroll 4 blacks

In regards to Evade, I disagree. You resolve the effect completely from defense tokens at the correct time. Evade happens before you go to resolve damage, so I don't see why you would have to spend Redirect, Evade, and Brace, and then begin to resolve the effects of the tokens.

1 hour ago, Undeadguy said:

In regards to Evade, I disagree. You resolve the effect completely from defense tokens at the correct time. Evade happens before you go to resolve damage, so I don't see why you would have to spend Redirect, Evade, and Brace, and then begin to resolve the effects of the tokens.

In fact, the FAQ Specifies that you resolve the Evade immediately - even before you decide to spend other Defense Tokens.

15 hours ago, Green Knight said:

But the going rate, for any command, is to spend both dial and token together. Then resolve.

Yeppers, There's no magic as it pertains to Engineering, as you get to see what's needed and allocate to meet the need.

You get no clairvoyance on the Concentrate Fire Dial roll, or the Squadron Dial before deciding on SQD Token use. But now that I think about it...don't you get to premeasure before deciding on Navigation Token use? /bugeyes

Of all the Command Tokens, the only real potential for efficiency loss is the CF Token because you have to commit it before knowing if you'll need it. One could argue about the Squadron Token being a loss I guess, but not like a CF Token.

Weird. And before we get all huffy in here duders, this is all of us just thinking out loud and sharing observations. In the end we will still do what's required by rules and developers intent.

Good convo anyway. New players reading this will benefit.

Just a small aside: squadron token or not, that can be an important decision. Do you risk wasting that token or did you dare not to use it.

1 minute ago, Green Knight said:

Just a small aside: squadron token or not, that can be an important decision. Do you risk wasting that token or did you dare not to use it.

Right, I get it. I was regarding the instance when you commit it and NOT need it. Same application to a CF Token.

A related topic: if you want to use engine techs, you must spend a token at the right time, even if you don't intend to change speed. You can't move and then spend the nav token.