Spoilers for Lords of the Sith, I suppose.

In the book, the Emperor and Vader are set upon by starships (the book describes them as modified freighters). The starships start firing at them, and then Vader and the Emperor start deflecting the bolts with their lightsabers.

Now as I've always understood, there's too much energy in a bolt from a shipboard cannon to reflect it. This is reflected in the game, where the Reflect talent would only deflect maybe 7 damage of probably forty or fifty, minimum (when taking the personal/vehicle scale into account). But clearly the Sith Lords don't care too much for this little distinction.

How would you account for this (since it is technically canon)? I could handwave that Vader and Palpatine are such powerful entities that they can narratively shrug off anything, but that tastes bad in my mouth. One could argue they each have like 50 ranks in the Reflect talent, but that just seems ludicrous from a mechanical perspective. The best bet I've got is that the Reflect talent doesn't care about the distinction between personal and vehicle scale, and deflects the damage without converting it. But does this seem broken?

I dunno. Nerdy musings that are probably unimportant. What do you guys think?

Edit: Edited for grammar.

It would certainly jolt the crap out of your arms..

Shouldn't this be in the Force and Destiny forum?

One could argue the same issue existed because in E1 Qui-gon reflects two B1s in a row firing from speeder platforms. Presumably, because the deflection destroyed the speeder, the original weapon was firing vehicle-scale weapons.

I've seen other people change the personal:vehicle ration from 10:1 to 5:1. Perhaps that works better. Honestly though, I don't think there are any great RAW-ish solutions that would encompass what you're after. So you'll probably have to come up with a house rule. I'm not really a fan of how Reflect and Parry work, or how they're tied to specific trees. It seems more like a function of the lightsaber skill, so you could tie it to that somehow.

Honestly, in terms of mechanics it's more a case of their attackers missing them due to the size difference and both of them having at least three ranks in Adversary (if not more), and the GM wanting to up the badass factor by describing it as Vader and Palps using their lightsabers to "deflect" the shots.

If a PC tried it, the amount of damage from even the smallest of vehicle-scale weapons would be enough to push them over their Wound Threshold unless the PC had managed to purchase just about every instance of Reflect to be found in Force and Destiny, and even then they're going to heavily damaged after a single shot. Bigger vehicle weapons just makes it less and less likely that the PC will be conscious after the attack is resolved.

In the EU novels some Jedi could stop the bolts from smaller vehicular weapons (starfighter cannons and the like), but the blast still tossed them around like ragdolls unless they were using the Force as an anchor. In the new Clone Wars show they're shown batting away cannonfire with ease, even fire from the main weapons of heavy tanks and emplaced guns.

Mechanically, yeah, you could wait to convert to personal scale until the damage is actually applied. I use a 5-to-1 ration for conversion, rather than the official 10-to-1, which at least gives individuals a chance while still keeping vehicles intimidating. I haven't worked with the new Force powers in F&D yet, but factoring in Protect might help too (Vader used a similar ability to absorb Han's blaster bolts on Bespin).

Personally, though, I'm disappointed with the Deflect talent now that we know about what F&D is going to look like. The defensive upgrade from Sense combined with a player wielding a lightsaber spending his opponent's Despairs to deflect attacks back always seemed like a really thematic representation. Deflect being basically just damage reduction is pretty bland by comparison, especially in a system with lots of tools to integrate mechanics with the narrative.

Shouldn't this be in the Force and Destiny forum?

Arguably, yeah. But the community seems less active there and I like talking to people about things.

....

Freighters are typically Sil 4.... assuming the Darth Duo is Sil 1.... base difficulty... ♦♦♦♦... add ■ minimum for reasons... They spend a D-point to upgrade difficulty.... Assume shooters are stock smugglers from the books.. Rival level... No ranks in gunnery, skill is... ♦♦♦....

Probability of success: Low

Probably of stupid-threat: Above average...

Likely Scenario:

George: The freighters swoop in guns blazing! *roll rolll* Wow... that's like no success and six Threat....

David: LOL! I easily deflect the laser beams!

Ian: Behold the power of the darkside!

George:.... you know what... sure... that's what happens.

Ian/David: *Darth-Fist-Bump*

Shouldn't this be in the Force and Destiny forum?

Arguably, yeah. But the community seems less active there and I like talking to people about things.

Blasted self-perpetuating low activity.

To the OP, I would agree that it's a really hard line to walk. I'm sure there's an elegant solution, and I greatly dislike how the rules handle it thus far. Perhaps make it so that you can cause Reflect, instead of mitigating damage, to generate a certain number of Failures for the vehicle's combat check.

Don't take rules so literally. The fact that you don't have Dodge, Parry or Reflect talents doesn't mean that you don't do that actions (or at least an aproximation).

As Ghost said, Silhouette diference seems pretty enough to achieve at least 4 Diff dices and also, they would have about 2 or 3 Setbacks probably. So, they don't need to use Reflect. They are just using a "cinematic reflect" on that scene.

If a PC tried it, the amount of damage from even the smallest of vehicle-scale weapons would be enough to push them over their Wound Threshold unless the PC had managed to purchase just about every instance of Reflect to be found in Force and Destiny, and even then they're going to heavily damaged after a single shot. Bigger vehicle weapons just makes it less and less likely that the PC will be conscious after the attack is resolved.

So, I went through and counted all the copies of Reflect found anywhere in F&D. Unless I got the number wrong, that would be a total of twelve copies. If the amount of damage reduced/reflected does follow the 2+X rule, if X=12, then you could only reduce/reflect up to 14 points of damage. Anything more than that would get through the Reflect action.

You’d be in a similar situation with Parry, with the difference being that there are probably more copies of Parry in the various trees than there is Reflect. But you’d still be hard-pressed to Parry more than 20 points of damage, I would think.

Yeah, not so useful on the bigger scale.

Maybe Improved Reflect and Improved Parry need to be modified, so that they don’t operate by reducing damage but instead by affecting the entire attack, with additional ranks of Reflect/Parry being used to generate more automatic Threat on the roll, so that you could do progressively nastier things with the results if you’re combining Improved Reflect/Parry with lots of ranks of Reflect/Parry?

Or maybe you switch to handling vehicle-scale damage with Improved Reflect/Parry plus ranks of Reflect/Parry — each rank of Reflect/Parry being equal to one point of vehicle-scale damage that you can handle?

OK, now this is by NO means what I would allow, but if one wanted to put it strictly rules wise...A GM could HR that with Reflect/Parry, the damage reduction is based purely on the numerical damage (since it technically hasn't hit them yet) and whatever is not Reflected or Parried is then converted at whatever ratio you use (10:1 or 5:1). So Auto Blasters doing 3 damage, pretty much auto Reflected at 1 rank, Heavy Laser cannons, you'd need at least 4 ranks. OP? Definitely, but could be explained....sort of..

As for instances in EU, I remember in Dark Empire (probably even more OP than Force Unleashed in ways) where Luke redirects a short range shot from an AT-AT and destroys it.

I agree with everyone else, just creative interpretation of a lot Threat/Despair on the part of the shooters.

TBH, I would almost entirely put that down to the sense talent, advesary and very creative uses of Dispairs that would inevitability come up on a frigate attack. Don't get hung up on the talent names people; sense and dodge/sidestep have been doing what those talents could have done for a long time. Just they are particilary good for numbing the attacks that do make it through the defensive moves.

By deflect, do you mean they sent them back at the fighters, or or just blocked the shots? Because option B could just be a narrative explanation of a missed attack (like Ghostofman was describing). Characters in The Clone Wars did it all the time, blocking shots with their 'sabers while running but not bouncing them back to hit their attackers.

Even sending them back can be narrative. Example:

My party has a Force user (a few other specs, but that's neither here nor there) with a basic lightsaber (F&D). A few sessions ago she was trying to close distance to a Stormtrooper Sergeant. On his initiative slot he shot at her, missed and rolled a despair (she used Dodge to upgrade). She decided to use the Despair to damage his weapon. It was described that she deflected the blast back (even though she does not have any ranks in Reflect yet) and it impacted his blaster rifle, ergo damaged weapon.

Being epic, heroic, imaginative, or what have you seems to be what the core of this system is about, however, the core is not the whole of a thing. In this case talents, specializations, force powers, skills, etc. all go to enhance and build on and off of that core. IMHO, it's a dance, a balance. Lean too heavily in one direction or the other (throw too many game mechanics to the wind, you might as well just have a "lets tell a story" and if you bog it down to mechanically with tons of house rules and probability ratios and the like) you can really clog the heart of the game.

That all being said, everyone plays differently. Our group, when we started learning the system, took scenes from the movies and tried to explain them away using the game rules. Of the scenes we came up with, ALL were easily and satisfactorily explainable.

So, deflecting starship shots, fun and narrative way to explain a missed shot. Redirecting the blast back? Again, fun and legendary way of explaining Despair/Threat. Why not? That's what the system was designed to do, Right?

Just my 2 credits.

By deflect, do you mean they sent them back at the fighters, or or just blocked the shots? Because option B could just be a narrative explanation of a missed attack (like Ghostofman was describing). Characters in The Clone Wars did it all the time, blocking shots with their 'sabers while running but not bouncing them back to hit their attackers.

There's blocking, deflecting, and reflecting. Deflecting is the most used as blocking is physically exhausting and reflecting takes good aim.

Let's get our nomenclature right so we aren't talking past each other

In game terms in this system, we have...

Parry: a talent that reduces damage done by melee attacks, which can be performed when wielding any melee weapon

Improved Parry: a talent that lets you spend Threat rolled by your attacker to automatically hit them with your melee weapon

Reflect: a talent that reduces damage done by ranged attacks, which can be performed while wielding a lightsaber

Improved Reflect: a talent that lets you spend Threat rolled by your attacker to automatically hit a nearby enemy with, essentially, a shot from your attacker's blaster

Deflection: a weapon quality that increases your Ranged defense

Defensive: a weapon quality that increases your Melee defense

There are other effects, of course, but to avoid confusion perhaps we could try and use the terms in use by the game itself

Spoilers for Lords of the Sith, I suppose.

In the book, the Emperor and Vader are set upon by starships (the book describes them as modified freighters). The starships start firing at them, and then Vader and the Emperor start deflecting the bolts with their lightsabers.

Now as I've always understood, there's too much energy in a bolt from a shipboard cannon to reflect it. This is reflected in the game, where the Reflect talent would only deflect maybe 7 damage of probably forty or fifty, minimum (when taking the personal/vehicle scale into account). But clearly the Sith Lords don't care too much for this little distinction.

How would you account for this (since it is technically canon)? I could handwave that Vader and Palpatine are such powerful entities that they can narratively shrug off anything, but that tastes bad in my mouth. One could argue they each have like 50 ranks in the Reflect talent, but that just seems ludicrous from a mechanical perspective. The best bet I've got is that the Reflect talent doesn't care about the distinction between personal and vehicle scale, and deflects the damage without converting it. But does this seem broken?

I dunno. Nerdy musings that are probably unimportant. What do you guys think?

Edit: Edited for grammar.

That incident in the book jarred with me too and for the same reasons. Though overall the book presented Vader well.

My solution is to pretend it didn't happen. If absolutely forced to acknowledge it, I'll pretend that they were both actually dodging and perhaps just using their lightsabres to mildly divert the blasts rather than reflect them. But I'm going to go with ignoring it for preference.

I have never been a fan of ninja-Palpatine as seen in this and that one TCW episode. Sure, he could be familiar with the basics of a lightsabre if you like, but why should he this unstoppable bouncing swordsman? He has other ways to be dangerous, imo. I never saw his life leaving a great deal of time practicing lightsabre techniques - or even needing to

well, you are right, but Star Wars rule is, that anything is cinematic^^. And the big mean emperor is a big mean enemy. Prove: Episode 3, where he slaughters an entire Jedi-Squad.

But to give it a little bit backround: In his Sith training he probably had a lot of fight-training too. He also gives some notes to fight-styles in the Sith book. ANd, maybe (i realy dont know) it is normal for an young aristocrat to learn some fight skills.

On the other hand, it may be the same with yoda. Their bodys may be old and weak, but if they have to they can use so strong force in fights for body-movement-stuff, their bodys are maybe not that important anymore.

If Yoda can be a bad ass in his twilight years, so can Pappa Palpatine.

I actually find Reflect a little on the weak side. If you watch Episode I, you see Obi-Wan batting away Droideka and Battle Droid blaster fire with little problem, and he's just a Padawan. Yet to successfully escape that much incoming damage would require some very poor rolls on the part of the droids or a whole lot of Strain spent on the part of Kenobi. (I know... I shouldn't try to compare the movies to the game, because movie cinematics can get insane, but bear with me.)

What about making the equation more complex? Maybe a lightsaber can only reflect a certain amount of damage based on its own quality. Maybe the user's lightsaber skill plays into the whole thing. Or the character's Force rating.

How does this look to you?

Reflect

Activation: Passive (Active, Incidental, Out-of-Turn)

Ranked: Yes

Trees: Ataru Striker, Niman Disciple, Protector, Shien Expert, Soresu Defender

Force Talent. When the character suffers a hit from a Ranged (Light), Ranged (Heavy), or Gunnery combat check, after damage is calculated (but before soak is applied), if the character is wielding a lightsaber, he make take the Reflect incidental. He suffers 3 strain and reduces the damage dealt by that hit from the attack by a number equal to his lightsaber skill times his Force rating or the base damage of his lightsaber, whichever is higher. Each rank in Reflect increase the amount of damage reduced by 2. This talent may only be used when the character is wielding an activated lightsaber.

This way it doesn't start out too powerful, but can grow to the point (given enough ranks in Reflect and a high enough Force rating) to actually Reflect damage from lower-powered vehicle weapons.

What do you think?

I actually find Reflect a little on the weak side. If you watch Episode I, you see Obi-Wan batting away Droideka and Battle Droid blaster fire with little problem, and he's just a Padawan. Yet to successfully escape that much incoming damage would require some very poor rolls on the part of the droids or a whole lot of Strain spent on the part of Kenobi. (I know... I shouldn't try to compare the movies to the game, because movie cinematics can get insane, but bear with me.)

I wouldn't say you shouldn't try to compare the movies to the game. But it helps to know, and be clear about, what things you're comparing. Particularly in a system where the combat rounds can last for an entire minute, there can be narrated any number of shots, blasts, and movements that happen inside the space of one round, or even one combat turn. Narratively speaking, in Episode 1 near the bridge of the Trade Federation ship, where the droidekas came out to attack the two Jedi, here's what could have happened:

Qui-Gon starts things off by rolling a Despair on his check to get through to the bridge. The GM calls for Vigilance initiative.

Obi-Wan rolls like 5 Successes ("Master, look, Destroyers!"), and Qui-Gon is still busy with the door and only rolls a 1 Success, but it's also a Triumph. He uses the maneuver to activate the Side Step talent.

PC Turn: Obi-Wan goes first, takes the Force Protection maneuver and then uses his action to commit a 1 Force Rating to his Sense power defensive upgrade.

NPC Turn: The Droidekas begin firing. They hit Obi-Wan, dealing 12 damage. It's mitigated by the Jedi's enhanced Soak and Reflect talents to a manageable 3. He activates Improved Reflect, and the GM says, "You interpose your lightsaber and catch the vicious hail of blaster bolts, sending several back in the direction they came from. However, the reflected shots seems to have bounced off a spherical shield surrounding the droid. The damage to the droid is minimal." Obi-Wan comments in character, "They've got shield generators."

PC Turn: Qui-Gon asks the GM about the droids. The GM replies, "the droids are obviously built for combat with Jedi. They have powerful shields that makes them deadly at long range and close range. In fact, you and Obi-Wan are reflecting their blasterfire back at them, which they seem to be withstanding with impunity." Qui-Gon says, "It's a standoff! Let's go." He chooses to run, rolling an Enhanced Athletics check.

PC Turn (new round): Obi-Wan follows suit, taking the Boost die from Qui-Gon's last action and using his turn to escaping the battle.

How does this look to you?

Reflect

Activation: Passive (Active, Incidental, Out-of-Turn)

Ranked: Yes

Trees: Ataru Striker, Niman Disciple, Protector, Shien Expert, Soresu Defender

Force Talent. When the character suffers a hit from a Ranged (Light), Ranged (Heavy), or Gunnery combat check, after damage is calculated (but before soak is applied), if the character is wielding a lightsaber, he make take the Reflect incidental. He suffers 3 strain and reduces the damage dealt by that hit from the attack by a number equal to his lightsaber skill times his Force rating or the base damage of his lightsaber, whichever is higher. Each rank in Reflect increase the amount of damage reduced by 2. This talent may only be used when the character is wielding an activated lightsaber.

This way it doesn't start out too powerful, but can grow to the point (given enough ranks in Reflect and a high enough Force rating) to actually Reflect damage from lower-powered vehicle weapons.

What do you think?

I would steer clear of a multiplication situation where the numbers can get that wildly out of hand. A Niman Disciple/Sage could be doing 18 damage reduction for 2 strain at 300 spent XP. Spend 25 more XP for Lightsaber rank 5, now it's at 21 damage reduced. Spend 65 more XP for FR 4, now it's 26 damage reduced. Holy crap. Plus, he's a boss with a lightsaber. I dunno, it just seems way too good. If I was going this route, I might start with addition: Force Rating plus Ranks in Lightsaber (the most a beginner PC is gonna start with is 3) plus ranks in Reflect. It's a little better than the original talent to begin with, and you can get marginally better as you gain more ranks in the skill, Force Rating, or talent.

I would ditch the "or damage of his lightsaber, whichever is higher" clause. Muddies the waters. The quality of the lightsaber can come into the mix with crystals, other attachments, and mods. No need to make the talent that complex, IMO.

The same basic idea could also go for Parry, but still keeping it as a non-Force talent. It would just make Force Users better at it.

In order to deal with vehicle weapons vs. reflect, you'd really have to start at the damage scaling. Otherwise you would be making your PC essentially invulnerable to small arms.

I dunno. Obviously some vehicle weapons are just too powerful to reflect, but what about auto-blasters? They do piddly damage against a ship; a stock freighter with Armor 4 could completely shrug off a hit. But against a PC it's basically a minimum of 40 damage. No way you're reflecting that. Insta-Knockout. Possibly even insta-death. And reducing it to x5 damage doesn't help much...20 damage (again, the minimum) will still incapacitate just about any PC with a single shot, unless they've put some serious points into their Soak & Wound Threshold.

So again...I dunno. Like I said earlier, I don't like it, but I'm not sure how to fix it with a elegant, balanced, and simple solution.

I think this falls into the realm of what kind of game you want to play. If you are going for the Comicbook/Cartoony style then I'm sure you could rig a mechanic to make it work, but if you are going with the more Fantastic Realism of the original trilogy you should avoid the situation...

In terms of the damage of vehicle weapons, such as the STAPs, I wonder if like the speeder bikes in the core rulebook those are actually equipped with character-scale weapons, such as a heavy blaster rifle or light repeating blaster, using Autofire to account for "two guns" much how the Firespray uses auto-blasters to do the same instead of giving them Linked 1.

If those STAPs are using character-scale blasters, then it becomes a far less complicated scenario for Qui-Gon to use Reflect on an attack and still be largely unharmed after the attack is resolved. Heck, he's probably got 6 or 7 ranks of Reflect (being a Jedi Master) and likely a Soak Value of 4 at the minimum; add in some difficulty upgrades from Sense and/or Dodge (he is an Ataru master), and it'd be easy for him to simply tank the damage from the STAP's character-scale blasters.