I have been playing Skirmish for a couple weeks now and have been having a lot of fun with the system! I like to think I have got a good understanding of how to play now but one of the guys in the play group is running the 4RG/4IO list and I am having a real hard time finding a way to take it on.

I have tried to play the Objectives but the list is able to out maneuver anything I can throw at it without running four officers myself. If I try to go for the weak officers, the Royal Guard defend them and make them harder to get.

So does anyone have any advise on how to deal with this list and have a chance? I don't have a favorite list right now so am open to pretty much any list makeup being rebel or Imperial. I also have two core sets available.

Thanks!

Take down the Royal Guard with 3 dice attacks of your own, focus them down 1 by 1. They will nearly always beat you on objectives, so find ways to keep yourself alive while dropping them. It's hard to deal with but in most maps they can't win on objectives alone, so find ways to punish melee or create favorable melee exchanges. AOE attacks like grenadier, force lightening etc. can tear these guys apart pretty quick since they tend to stay tightly packed.

Blast 4 off of the Elite Sabs (preferrably with focus) can do wonders if they bunch up.......if

Blast with Elite Sabs I agree with nungunz.

Blast with Elite Sabs I agree with nungunz.

I think it's a good sign of how disingenuous some folks are being that they aren't commenting here, in this thread, trying to find a way to defeat IO spam rather than crying about how the end is nigh. Since you claim to have good results with Rebel lists against the supposedly broken Imperial Officers (and their Royal Guard accompaniment), can you elaborate for us in greater detail how you manage to beat them as frequently as you do?

I haven't seen the list personally, but I built this list with killing it in mind:

3x Sabs

2x Elite Sabs

Gideon

Rebel Troopers

The Obi-Wan skirmish card for +3 in command cards

Command cards focus on focusing figures, as does Gideon - focused elite sabs are awesome and if your opponent is using the guards to protect, they will be murdered by blast 4 eventually.

Blast with Elite Sabs I agree with nungunz.

I think it's a good sign of how disingenuous some folks are being that they aren't commenting here, in this thread, trying to find a way to defeat IO spam rather than crying about how the end is nigh. Since you claim to have good results with Rebel lists against the supposedly broken Imperial Officers (and their Royal Guard accompaniment), can you elaborate for us in greater detail how you manage to beat them as frequently as you do?

Gotta love the passive-aggressive commentary... I love how you assume that because we are trying to get the officer changed that we haven't tried to beat Imperials for months now, playing several different Rebel/Scum builds I got fed up after playing 40+ games and only winning maybe 3 times.

As JohnnyB said, if you can cut their activation advantage via blast or other AOE early in the game then it tilts the scales in your favor. Also, Blast is particularly good against Royal Guard spam because you can kill several Royal Guard simultaneously, limiting the usefulness of their Focus ability, which is extremely important.

The issue, of course, is that getting off Blast consistently can be a bit of a challenge. Obviously, Saboteurs of all kinds and Weiss are the best at it, but there's still a lot that can go wrong when it comes to getting the right command cards, rolling the dice, etc. And if you fail, your saboteurs usually poof pretty fast, since they are priority #1 for the Empire to eliminate. Also, experienced opponents will spread out against a Saboteur/Blast-heavy list since the sabs are much less scary if you forget about protector a bit to get around the blast as much as possible.

I have played the list JohnnyB won the Chicago Regional with multiple times (we talked about the list privately over a month ago). I just haven't had nearly as much success with it.

The Imperial lists are beatable, I just haven't found anything that can do it with any degree of regularity, which is why I am so adamant about a fix.

I think it's a good sign of how disingenuous some folks are being that they aren't commenting here, in this thread, trying to find a way to defeat IO spam rather than crying about how the end is nigh.

Since you've not listened to a single word we've said in any of the other threads, it seems a bit pointless trying to explain it to you in this one.

Gotta love the passive-aggressive commentary... I love how you assume that because we are trying to get the officer changed that we haven't tried to beat Imperials for months now, playing several different Rebel/Scum builds I got fed up after playing 40+ games and only winning maybe 3 times.

As JohnnyB said, if you can cut their activation advantage via blast or other AOE early in the game then it tilts the scales in your favor. Also, Blast is particularly good against Royal Guard spam because you can kill several Royal Guard simultaneously, limiting the usefulness of their Focus ability, which is extremely important.

The issue, of course, is that getting off Blast consistently can be a bit of a challenge. Obviously, Saboteurs of all kinds and Weiss are the best at it, but there's still a lot that can go wrong when it comes to getting the right command cards, rolling the dice, etc. And if you fail, your saboteurs usually poof pretty fast, since they are priority #1 for the Empire to eliminate. Also, experienced opponents will spread out against a Saboteur/Blast-heavy list since the sabs are much less scary if you forget about protector a bit to get around the blast as much as possible.

I have played the list JohnnyB won the Chicago Regional with multiple times (we talked about the list privately over a month ago). I just haven't had nearly as much success with it.

The Imperial lists are beatable, I just haven't found anything that can do it with any degree of regularity, which is why I am so adamant about a fix.

I know you won't begrudge me a bit of passive-aggression after your bout of sarcasm-fueled nausea in the other thread. There's been an opportunity for you to address your concerns here in a way that doesn't advocate changing the game, and being the reasonable people that we are I thought we could set aside that approach for a more proactive solution, one involving strategy rather than errata. Whatever discussions you've had in the past or in private are rather moot if all the community sees right now is a bunch of caterwauling about X or Y game elements being broken. So, I'm glad we can take this opportunity to revisit those discussions now, in a civil manner.

What else can we do to enable the blast lists? I'm assuming Luke is a regularly included figure, owing to the power of his dice re-roll ability. Personally, I think Saska was a missed opportunity from FFG; free surges are great, and it's disappointing that the devices didn't translate over to her deployment card.

Since you've not listened to a single word we've said in any of the other threads, it seems a bit pointless trying to explain it to you in this one.

Oh, I've listened to you, but that doesn't make you right. I wonder, is your name a product of honest self-reflection, or is it merely a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Is there a block list on this forum?

My thoughts of the game are the same as others and the rebel sabs are not the answer just a tool.

Most of my games with the squad were back In March when vader was the top dog. A lot of it has to do with going at them turn one since this is a lot of the time the one time they we'll be in a group you can target. The figures having PT surprises a lot of people. Back when I thought it could work was more the surprise factor from people not knowing how the figure worked and that the maps are so close together. As I will stat below I use the deep strike or mid round attack to pull this off.

on Luke's map the doors mean you do need to open both or bait for the other. This map is the one you most likely won't attack turn one but with 7 acts still can do well. If I do have strength in numbers I can go at them turn one with the doors.

Vaders map a lot of people want the top but I want the bottom since I can go right at you turn one and since there are not a lot of good shooters in the meta I can move two with gideon with a sab. You are somewhat far so people don't see the attack coming you only need deadeye, lockon, or a few other command cards to really make it works it does work with out them but getting Luke within three is helpful but too much of a gamble.

Core map you are only 7 away meaning you can go right at each other if you want off setting the power of smuggler goods since you can get them in attack mode vs getting crates, this works a lot more than you think even vs better players.

As much of the trolling I did do yesterday hida is right the squad is not straight forward and things can go wrong. I have messed with the command deck enough to avoid as many bad draws turn one as I can. The squad was never ment to be a tier 1 squad just a fun spy swarm. I think it has too many sab in the squad putting your eggs in on basket. They do have pierce 2 stun etc. last I don't attack unless I have Luke near by or focused. The key is the blast but after turn one they will be spread out after that but as crazy as it is people still don't spread out even though they know your going to blast. You can avoid it but not sure how many people use the deep strike with them turn one or wait for there opp to jpuse the officer trick a few times since it's second nature and then use what I call a mid round attack. This is the same tactic I used in swm vs tempo control.

Massive figures, larges, Han, elite royal guards can cause problem. Hida is right it's not a answer to the officers but it is a tool for the rebels to gain activation control in their own way.

I used this tactic in Star Wars minis with gungans. I was able to do very well it it since it was high in acts, same type of area damage and the suprise factor of not seeing it being played before. I have also been playing with a squad like sabs for close to 5 years.

Is there a block list on this forum?

Oh c'mon, don't be bitter, man!

Edit: I hope that you will someday have the maturity to recognize the irony in your last private message to me.

Gotta love the passive-aggressive commentary... I love how you assume that because we are trying to get the officer changed that we haven't tried to beat Imperials for months now, playing several different Rebel/Scum builds I got fed up after playing 40+ games and only winning maybe 3 times.

As JohnnyB said, if you can cut their activation advantage via blast or other AOE early in the game then it tilts the scales in your favor. Also, Blast is particularly good against Royal Guard spam because you can kill several Royal Guard simultaneously, limiting the usefulness of their Focus ability, which is extremely important.

The issue, of course, is that getting off Blast consistently can be a bit of a challenge. Obviously, Saboteurs of all kinds and Weiss are the best at it, but there's still a lot that can go wrong when it comes to getting the right command cards, rolling the dice, etc. And if you fail, your saboteurs usually poof pretty fast, since they are priority #1 for the Empire to eliminate. Also, experienced opponents will spread out against a Saboteur/Blast-heavy list since the sabs are much less scary if you forget about protector a bit to get around the blast as much as possible.

I have played the list JohnnyB won the Chicago Regional with multiple times (we talked about the list privately over a month ago). I just haven't had nearly as much success with it.

The Imperial lists are beatable, I just haven't found anything that can do it with any degree of regularity, which is why I am so adamant about a fix.

I know you won't begrudge me a bit of passive-aggression after your bout of sarcasm-fueled nausea in the other thread. There's been an opportunity for you to address your concerns here in a way that doesn't advocate changing the game, and being the reasonable people that we are I thought we could set aside that approach for a more proactive solution, one involving strategy rather than errata. Whatever discussions you've had in the past or in private are rather moot if all the community sees right now is a bunch of caterwauling about X or Y game elements being broken. So, I'm glad we can take this opportunity to revisit those discussions.

What else can we do to enable the blast lists? I'm assuming Luke is a regularly included figure, owing to the power of his dice re-roll ability. Personally, I think Saska was a missed opportunity from FFG; free surges are great, and it's disappointing that the devices didn't translate over to her deployment card.

Since you've not listened to a single word we've said in any of the other threads, it seems a bit pointless trying to explain it to you in this one.

Oh, I've listened to you, but that doesn't make you right. I wonder, is your name a product of honest self-reflection, or is it merely a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Unfortunately, there's nothing you can really do outside of run Luke and all the blast-related command cards and hope for the best. Luke is also not the greatest solution since he has to be nearby where the saboteurs are going to try and blast from (usually 3 spaces away from an enemy model), and he has to be there prior to activating the saboteurs, which usually means that if you fail you lose him as well and you give your opponent time to spread out more to avoid it.

The command cards pose a similar issue. There's 4 really important ones and your deck is 15 cards where you only draw 4-5 cards by turn 2. Sometimes you get none, or only the one which doesn't help you in a given situation. As an example, Explosive Weaponry doesn't help if you fail to do damage, or if you don't roll surges, or whatever. The same can be said for Lock on. I have had far too many games where I got the lock on but failed to get more than one surge on 3 dice. Sure, I can take away the dodge now, but I only blast 2 and that kills nothing and I get rick-rolled from then on. You get the picture.

What I am getting at is you have to get a perfect storm of things go right to get this to happen even once. And all of this assumes your opponent didn't see it coming and adjust to minimize the damage. Hopefully you can now see where my "luck" comments stem from. While I have tried it myself, I get the below average results far more frequently than the above average ones. And that is just not good enough in any decently-sized tournament.

Basically any strategy that does not involve cutting the activation advantage by the end of turn 2 is doomed for failure in my experience, since it is unlikely you can kill all of the threats quickly enough to not get pounded/stunned to death otherwise.

Obviously you can build a similar Imperial list with some counter pieces included, but that's a bit of a catch-22. If you use officers/RG to beat officers/RG, doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose?

Obviously, any gamer worth his salt is going to mitigate chance at every available opportunity. Luke's ability might be worth crying over too, if Rebels weren't overshadowed by the Empire right now; that's how strong his ability is. As a veteran gamer myself, I can vouch for the importance of card advantage. Since you're putting so much emphasis on command cards, might I suggest the upgrade that draws you an extra one every turn? How often does securing a terminal factor into your game plan?

Obviously, any gamer worth his salt is going to mitigate chance at every available opportunity. Luke's ability might be worth crying over too, if Rebels weren't overshadowed by the Empire right now; that's how strong his ability is. As a veteran gamer, I can vouch for the importance of card advantage. Since you're putting so much emphasis on command cards, might I suggest the upgrade that draws you an extra one every turn? How often does securing a terminal factor into your game plan?

Because I go at them turn 1 it really forces the game into a speed game which makes a lot of my games in 2 1/2 round games. All my games went to three rounds but only a few turns in. So I am not sure it's worth the cost. I do like balance of the force letting you control your command deck more than high command.

Go at what turn 1, your opponents or the terminals?

I guess I should add, that I do NOT think adding more blast/making it more consistent is the answer. If blast is too powerful, then all you will see is silly alpha-strike lists which blast you early in the game. I actually think that would be worse than it is now.

On the plus side, the testing/feedback about the 3 point officer has been very positive. I played Imperial a bit on Sunday using those rules and felt lists like the one Johnny used beat/give Empire a much bigger run for their money.

Go at what turn 1, your opponents or the terminals?

I go at my opponents deployment zone turn 1 and terminals when I can.

I guess I should add, that I do NOT think adding more blast/making it more consistent is the answer. If blast is too powerful, then all you will see is silly alpha-strike lists which blast you early in the game. I actually think that would be worse than it is now.

On the plus side, the testing/feedback about the 3 point officer has been very positive. I played Imperial a bit on Sunday using those rules and felt lists like the one Johnny used beat/give Empire a much bigger run for their money.

I guess I should add, that I do NOT think adding more blast/making it more consistent is the answer. If blast is too powerful, then all you will see is silly alpha-strike lists which blast you early in the game. I actually think that would be worse than it is now.

On the plus side, the testing/feedback about the 3 point officer has been very positive. I played Imperial a bit on Sunday using those rules and felt lists like the one Johnny used beat/give Empire a much bigger run for their money.

You can either have balance, where all lists stand a relatively equal chance of winning an event (but not necessarily beating each other), or one list archetype that stands out above the rest. I don't think we're trying to make Rebel Blast better than IO spam so much as explore ways to bring them in line with each other, if they aren't already. People like to talk about a rock-paper-scissors meta, but I prefer something more akin to rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock. Right now, if we believe all the hyperbole, there's only rock. Has anyone solicited feedback from the other regionals champs? I'd love to see an article from Paul Heaver on his thoughts about Rebels in the current meta.

I guess I should add, that I do NOT think adding more blast/making it more consistent is the answer. If blast is too powerful, then all you will see is silly alpha-strike lists which blast you early in the game. I actually think that would be worse than it is now.

On the plus side, the testing/feedback about the 3 point officer has been very positive. I played Imperial a bit on Sunday using those rules and felt lists like the one Johnny used beat/give Empire a much bigger run for their money.

You can either have balance, where all lists stand a relatively equal chance of winning an event (but not necessarily beating each other), or one list archetype that stands out above the rest. I don't think we're trying to make Rebel Blast better than IO spam so much as explore ways to bring them in line with each other, if they aren't already. People like to talk about a rock-paper-scissors meta, but I prefer something more akin to rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock. Right now, if we believe all the hyperbole, there's only rock. Has anyone solicited feedback from the other regionals champs? I'd love to see an article from Paul Heaver on his thoughts about Rebels in the current meta.

I guess I should add, that I do NOT think adding more blast/making it more consistent is the answer. If blast is too powerful, then all you will see is silly alpha-strike lists which blast you early in the game. I actually think that would be worse than it is now.

On the plus side, the testing/feedback about the 3 point officer has been very positive. I played Imperial a bit on Sunday using those rules and felt lists like the one Johnny used beat/give Empire a much bigger run for their money.

You can either have balance, where all lists stand a relatively equal chance of winning an event (but not necessarily beating each other), or one list archetype that stands out above the rest. I don't think we're trying to make Rebel Blast better than IO spam so much as explore ways to bring them in line with each other, if they aren't already. People like to talk about a rock-paper-scissors meta, but I prefer something more akin to rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock. Right now, if we believe all the hyperbole, there's only rock. Has anyone solicited feedback from the other regionals champs? I'd love to see an article from Paul Heaver on his thoughts about Rebels in the current meta.

You should check my blog and the IA Command Podcast both Johnny and I are on. Paul's opinion since I posted it over a month ago is the officer needs to be 3 points. I cannot speak for every regional winner of course.

And I totally agree. I'd like to think that if Rebel could eat imperial with some regularity (maybe not 50/50 but 60/40 isnt too much to ask), Scum would also eventually creep back into the meta as well, since it tends to do well, in my experience, versus Rebels. Which is why I think the officer at 3 points is the right fix. It doesn't kill Empire but brings them to a manageable level for the other factions to compete with.

I do think their is a paper/ scissors squad with the rebels it's just a little below imperials more like tier 1.5

That says to me that a) there's an imbalance, but it's not so strong that something is broken, and b) that it shouldn't take more than a gentle nudge to bring other factions up to speed. With another release imminent, assuming they don't print something equally powerful for Imperials again, I would suspect that Rebels will be increasingly viable in skirmish matches, if not Mercenaries as well.

You should check my blog and the IA Command Podcast both Johnny and I are on. Paul's opinion since I posted it over a month ago is the officer needs to be 3 points. I cannot speak for every regional winner of course.

And I totally agree. I'd like to think that if Rebel could eat imperial with some regularity (maybe not 50/50 but 60/40 isnt too much to ask), Scum would also eventually creep back into the meta as well, since it tends to do well, in my experience, versus Rebels. Which is why I think the officer at 3 points is the right fix. It doesn't kill Empire but brings them to a manageable level for the other factions to compete with.

You do realize that 4/11 is approaching 37%, don't you?

Let's assume for a moment that I'm right, that a company with a track record of minimal card errata won't change the deployment card cost. What's your next best idea?

That says to me that a) there's an imbalance, but it's not so strong that something is broken, and b) that it shouldn't take more than a gentle nudge to bring other factions up to speed. With another release imminent, assuming they don't print something equally powerful for Imperials again, I would suspect that Rebels will be increasingly viable in skirmish matches, if not Mercenaries as well.

I get that, and I agree to some degree. I could be behind waiting to see what happens after Wave 2 releases before issuing a fix, if it is still needed. My only caveat is I hope that is out before Nationals, since otherwise the damage will have already been done to a large extent.

The concern is that what has been hinted at/previewed so far gives me no indication that Wave 2 will do near enough. I may be wrong, and honestly hope I am. Perhaps there is some skirmish upgrade or command card we haven't seen. I'd like to hope so, but if there was I really wish FFG would show us to belay the concern now rather than surprise us later.

I'm pretty certain we haven't seen any of the upcoming skirmish upgrade cards, and if I'm not mistaken all of the previews show what appears to be a facedown upgrade card. And I mean all of the previews; each individual, forthcoming ally/villain pack has a facedown card of some variety, or something mysteriously tucked behind the deployment card.

For reference:

Note how there's a face down card with the deployment card backing behind each individual deployment card. So we have what appears to be 3 upgrade cards and 5 command cards yet to be spoiled, on top of the deployment card effects themselves, which are still too grainy to give a clear indication of their full potential. I'd say we have a lot to look forward to with upcoming spoilers, and that's not even counting the fact that we know so little about Twin Shadows.