I so want to get Epic going at our local shop. Wondering aloud: has anyone seen a good video tutorial covering the Epic rules? I think that's be the easiest way to get the other guys up to speed.

Of course "most" ship collisions happen near capital ships. "Most" in this instance being "more than zero". I still made thousands of safe passes above and below those ships for every 1 time I actually ran into one of them.

OK, so you agree that you suffer more collisions when flying close to a capital ship than you do when flying in open space, and you agree that you attract more incoming fire when flying close to a capital ship than you do when flying in open space.

Cool. Both of those scenarios are abstractly represented in game by the collision rules. We're good here.

I like the collision rules.

In our last epic game a rebel transport crushed two of my black squadron pilots but it was a chance i had to take... if i avoided the transport they would have had to disengage from the xwings they were chasing and if he turned *into* the fight i was dead *but* as it was epic it was a risk i was prepared to take.

Losing two BSPs in a round in a normal game is catasptrophic but in a 600 point epic game its inconsequential but it did mean i could entice the transport into making a turn, and if it didnt then i was in a great position anyway.

Another good mark for epic.... 'disposable' cheap ships really are disposable

As the empire i felt i could sacrifice a few fighters now and then whereas to the rebels with an average points per ship of about 30 points it was a real blow everytime they lost one - which feels more 'star wars' to me.

OK, so you agree that you suffer more collisions when flying close to a capital ship than you do when flying in open space

In the same way I agree more drownings happen at the pool than at the park. Yes. That doesn't make the pool "in your face" or "deadly chaos".

Yes, because they didn't work the way I thought they did. I didn't know smaller ships could fly into and under huge ships without being instantly destroyed.

What happens when a small ship collides with a huge ship and then the huge ships moves and ends up touching that same ship?

Touching is not a problem. However if the huge ship turns afterwards and it overlaps the small/large ship it will be destroyed.

I like to use huge ships as 'hulks' instead of asteroids. even in a standard game weaving between two huge ships is more 'star wars' than every battle being in an asteroid field.

A transport sideways on in the middle of the table forces a lot of flanking rather than charging ahead in a joust.

In the same way I agree more drownings happen at the pool than at the park. Yes. That doesn't make the pool "in your face" or "deadly chaos".

So you're just getting hung up on terminology then. And yet, even that argument does make sense given you feel that "Flying in an asteroid field or a starfighter furball is (chaotic)".

If both flying through an asteroid field or in the middle of a starfighter furball is "chaotic and in your face", then how much more so is doing that while also being in close proximity to a maneuvering capital ship which is actively targeting your ship with turbolasers and warheads/trying to lock a tractor beam on you/using electronic countermeasures/so forth and so on?

I like to use huge ships as 'hulks' instead of asteroids. even in a standard game weaving between two huge ships is more 'star wars' than every battle being in an asteroid field.

Yep, stick a couple of Epic ships on the table instead of/alongside the asteroids and you get a much more cinematic experience. Even just as eye candy, it makes things that much more fun.

Hundreds? I can honestly say I've put thousands of hours into the x-wing games in flight time alone, not counting custom missions and campaigns I've made. I'll agree that in the x-wing games capital ships are not chaotic and easy to avoid in terms of crashing into them, but then I don't think those games represented star wars perfectly, and the x-wing miniatures game represents in a different way. In XWM Capital ships are way way FASTER than in any of the x-wing games. Because of that, caps can ram and present much more of a threat, the light and twin turbolasers are more effective at shooting fighters also.

XWA is the worst offender of all the x-wing games for so so much. (you HAVE to dumbfire missiles vs caps to be effective being a major flaw). This said, XWA added anti capital ship turbolasers, so it got at least one thing right. Also Hyperspace.

Asteroid furballs in XvT and XWA were not chaotic, as the rocks were spaced out significantly. Furballs near hostile capital ships... In every game these were more chaotic as enemy AA was targeting you. One thing to fight 4 T/A's with an A-wing, another to fight 4 T/A's with 2 CRV's going at you. God forbid a Lancer.

But like i said, cap ships were SLOW. Now, in the first X-wing, being rammed by a transport ship such as a stormtrooper transport or a shuttle presented a very real problem, as did flight debris. The only worry a corvette would give you was 270 degrees of fire (assuming on a flat plane).

Also, in terms of the X-wing games, one thing that added MASSIVELY to chaos: ships with missiles.

Just saying, dodging lasers and hard turning is all fine, get a ship with concussion or god forbid advanced concussion getting a lock at 2.5 while you are engaging enemies at .30-.70 yeah...

My end point: Let's stop comparing the video game to the mini game, i've tried it. it doesn't work. it's 2 different interpretations of star wars in two different formats.

It's like reading the Lord of the Rings books, and watching the films. two very different, but yet both awesome experiences, which should never be compared as they are so truly different.

Unrelated: On saturday morning I solo'ed the CRS Defiance in a TIE Advanced (XvT - one of the missions in BOP, I forget which). Trick is to not target it, so it won't fire it's advanced missiles, yet hit shift-F to bring up the stats, dumbfire lasers at a distance avoiding it's fire, when the shields are down kill it's missile launchers, then target and strip gun turrets of dorsal side. then just strafe. Not chaotic.

If i hadn't killed the Z-95s and A-wings first. Then it would be chaotic.

Missiles you see.

I so want to get Epic going at our local shop. Wondering aloud: has anyone seen a good video tutorial covering the Epic rules? I think that's be the easiest way to get the other guys up to speed.

I don't know of a video, but it's not too hard. The hardest part is the energy. You pick a move and it tells you how many pink energy tokens you get. You use those to fire secondary weapons or repair shields. Big ships move last. The minor details you can get from the rules. It's not that big.

My advice is to have one person set up a list for both sides. Make sure it's fair and the side without an epic ship doesn't have a lot of 3-4 red attack dice. Spread out the PS level on both sides.

Anyway, by far the thing I take the most laser fire from in the X-Wing games are this game's "large" ships with turrets. Like the Escort Shuttle or YT-1300s. Anything big enough to have turrets, yet small enough to still be manuverable enough to make it so you can't just sit in it's blind spot. I take way more hits in those instances than I do from starfighters and huge ships combined.

Hands down, High skill level frigates can be real nightmares. Capital ships with multiple warhead launchers and advanced concussion missiles are the deadliest things in space though.

If both flying through an asteroid field or in the middle of a starfighter furball is "chaotic and in your face", then how much more so is doing that while also being in close proximity to a maneuvering capital ship which is actively targeting your ship with turbolasers and warheads/trying to lock a tractor beam on you/using electronic countermeasures/so forth and so on?

According to the Epic rules, it's NOT AT ALL more chaotic or dangerous, unless you happen to wind up right in front of the **** thing. I can be right on top of it, underneath it, behind it or alongside it and that's totally fine. I can fly loops around it and that's fine too. But if I stop in front of it, I'm toast.

Which is stupid. Now, I can rationalise it away as an abstraction. If you get clumsy around a capital ship, you get really dead, really quick. But it's a clumsy abstraction. They could have simply said that any regular ship that ends the turn in range one of a capital ship rolls a damage die and takes any damage suffered, or something like that, to represent all the small point defense lasers. If a huge ship were to land on a smaller ship, you could simply push it the minimum distance necessary to get it out of the way. Heck, give it a stress token or two for it's trouble.. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

Except you can't: every manuever in the game has very precise positioning limits, you can't just "push" a ship because where does it end up? If a ship doesn't get splatted then it has to be able to block the Huge. And that would be much more daft.

Not hitting the enemy Huge Ship is easy, you just stay the hell away from directly in front of it: it has quite limited maneuvering and you know the full limit of them. First few games I got splatted and managed to splat all the time, but once you get used to it it's easy to dodge unless you want to skim the surface, and that's meant to be dangerous.

As the empire i felt i could sacrifice a few fighters now and then whereas to the rebels with an average points per ship of about 30 points it was a real blow everytime they lost one - which feels more 'star wars' to me.

This. This is what I really like about epic, and I mean really like, the feel of an epic space opera with 15-20-30 ships on the battlefield. And Gadge said it right about the Rebel losses mean a lot more to their cause, just think who would miss a couple TIE pilots serving their Emperor or the hero of the rebellion Luke Skywalker. It's things like that which separates Epic from 100pt DM. It's a more relaxing way to play the same game

Except you can't: every manuever in the game has very precise positioning limits, you can't just "push" a ship because where does it end up?

You just move it the minimum amount required. Where it ends up is relative to where it started and how far it needs to be moved in order to place the huge ship. Sure, it's not precise, but so what? Surely as adults we can position a ship in a mutually agreeable fashion without the game descending into chaos?

Anyway, we're just arguing for the sake of it now. The huge ship mechanics aren't going to change, and I will always think they are lazy and counter-intuitive, and you will always disagree

According to the Epic rules, it's NOT AT ALL more chaotic or dangerous, unless you happen to wind up right in front of the **** thing. I can be right on top of it, underneath it, behind it or alongside it and that's totally fine. I can fly loops around it and that's fine too. But if I stop in front of it, I'm toast.

Once again, this might help: Page 7 in the Tantive IV rulebook:

SMALL/LARGE SHIPS OVERLAPPING A HUGE SHIP:

When a small or large ship executes a manuever and the final position of the base overlaps a huge ship, the overlapping ship must follow the rules under "Plastic Bases Overlapping" described on page 17 of the core set rulebook. Additionally, the player controlling the overlapping ship rolls one attack dice and suffers any damage (hit) or critical damage (crit) rolled.

Additionally, the player controlling the overlapping ship rolls one attack dice and suffers any damage (hit) or critical damage (crit) rolled.

Which is, like, the same as hitting an asteroid.

I played this the other day:

(Rebels) My opponent: http://goo.gl/VEYqfL

(S&V) Mine: http://goo.gl/91jmoh

I lost 3 Zs and a Tansarii.

So "Your thoughts on the Epic format" turns in to a debate on huge ships ramming/hitting smaller ships and the realism of it in a space oriented yet two dimensional abstract science fiction game.

Which is, like, the same as hitting an asteroid.

Exactly. Now you're getting it!

Me like Epic.

Me want to fly 2 GR75s as a convoy escorted by x-wings.

Me like fluff.

Me like Epic.

Me want to fly 2 GR75s as a convoy escorted by x-wings.

Me like fluff.

One more GR75 and you'll have enough to do the last mission in the booklet...

Darius, I've flown 2x transports, it went like this:

Not sure how i'll kit mine, will have to pick up a second GR75,

Really doing it as a convoy protect mission, I really like campaign/fluffy missions.

Not sure how i'll kit mine, will have to pick up a second GR75,

Really doing it as a convoy protect mission, I really like campaign/fluffy missions.

I'll be publishing a mission where an Imperial Raider jumps into a deep space Rebel supply depot, with 2 GR75s and a bunch of containers, and needs to destroy as much as it can before it is chased off by rebel fighters.