What I think stinks is that because of Escort you cannot properly combine A-Wings and X-Wings because it limits the A-Wings counter until the X-Wings are gone.

What I think stinks is that because of Escort you cannot properly combine A-Wings and X-Wings because it limits the A-Wings counter until the X-Wings are gone.

I just updated the OP I hope i hit everything, I will reread everything in the thread and edit again tomorrow.

Thanks for the support everyone!!!

Quick question, less about fighters and more about your carrier loadout; why projectors over ECM's?

A-Wings....last sentence....USE that speed....

Quick question, less about fighters and more about your carrier loadout; why projectors over ECM's?

Because gladiator.

I run imperial and my fave things are the gladiator and black dice which generally means that ecm was a total waste of points, basically I consider ecm to be less consistent them the shield upgrade. But that is a personal opinion and both are susceptible to diffrent attacks for example projector becomes useless when they roll an accuracy, but ecm is useless when someone has my favorite card Intel officer.

I wonder if an Anti-Squadron Die per Hull metric would be appropriate.

A-Wing 3 Anti-Squadron dice plus Counter times Hull.
Count Counter as half.
So (3 [AS Dice]+ 1[Counter/2]) x 4 Hull is 16.

Counter 2 adds 1 per 2
Swarm adds 1

This will rate their effectiveness JUST for CAP.

A-Wing has a rating of 16. --> 1.45
X-Wing has a rating of 20. --> 1.54
Y-Wing has a rating of 12. --> 1.2
B-Wing had a rating of 15. --> 1.07
Tie Fighter is 10. --> 1.25
Tie Interceptor is 16. --> 1.45
Tie Advanced is 15. --> 1.25
Tie Bomber is 5 with a Black Die. --> .55

This only factors in longevity in fighter combat and potential damage that can be done. A similar thing could be done for Anti-Ship work.

Now for Anti-Ship....
Black Die w/Bomber 9 Points
Black Die w/o 6 Points
Red Die w/Bomber 6 Points
Red Die w/o 4 Points
Blue Die w/Bomber 6 Points
Blue Die w/o Bomber 4 Points


A-Wing = 6 x 4 = 24 --> 2.18
X-Wing = 6 x 5 = 30 --> 2.31

Y-Wing = 9 x 6 = 54 --> 5.4
B-Wing = (9 + 6) X 5 = 75 --> 5.36
Tie Fighter = 4 x 3 = 12 --> 1.5
Tie Interceptor = 4 x 3 = 12 --> 1.0
Tie Advanced = 6 x 5 = 30 --> 2.5
Tie Bomber = 9 x 5 = 45 --> 5.0

So maybe if I multiply Anti-Squadron x Anti-Ship x Speed and then add or subtract a few points for Escort and Heavy????

we need major juggler in here for anti-squadron values per points spent

^^^ Like that? Fixed it. It now includes rating/cost

I wonder if an Anti-Squadron Die per Hull metric would be appropriate.

A-Wing 3 Anti-Squadron dice plus Counter times Hull.

Count Counter as half.

So (3 [AS Dice]+ 1[Counter/2]) x 4 Hull is 16.

Counter 2 adds 1 per 2

Swarm adds 1

This will rate their effectiveness JUST for CAP.

A-Wing has a rating of 16. --> 1.45

X-Wing has a rating of 20. --> 1.54

Y-Wing has a rating of 18. --> 1.8

B-Wing had a rating of 15. --> 1.07

Tie Fighter is 10. --> 1.25

Tie Interceptor is 16. --> 1.45

Tie Advanced is 15. --> 1.25

Tie Bomber is 5 with a Black Die. --> .55

This only factors in longevity in fighter combat and potential damage that can be done. A similar thing could be done for Anti-Ship work.

the ones after the arrows are rating/points cost....so the A-Wing is 1.45 for Anti-Squadron work and 2.18 with Anti-Ship work....

If I could factor in speed somehow and combine them both....

B-wings aren't really great anti-squadron. They have the dice, sure, but they're 14 points which is a massive asking price for 3 dice making them very points inefficient for that role. They're not helpless, but I wouldn't take them for it by any stretch of the imagination

I like the idea of them as escorts

personally, I've been thinking of them as imperial repellent. VSDs and GSDs detest them, and they give rebel capital ships access to insane close-range punch that they simply can't get otherwise.

They've been great for adding teeth to a trio of Nebs, which pack basically all of their offense in red dice and are bristling with enough anti-squadron armaments to make ties wet themselves and keep the Bs free to bombard ships

At least they can one-shot enemy TIE Squadrons by throwing the same amount of dice an A-Wing does on the attack. The only way it could be better is if they came with Counter, or four blue dice, but that would make them too good. I'd still take them with some kind of escort, because even if they can't solo enemy TIE squadrons they'd make great tactical artillery by helping their escorts.

I do have a three nebulon-B-Swarm list actually that I might take to tournament if I can't find a satisfactory imperial list. Rebels really have the advantage in variety as far as Wave 1 goes.

A-wings are best when they are on thier own. They are designed as a stopgap or delay against any opposing fighters. Throw them out during squadron phase to force a delay on the opposing fighters which are in range for a Squadron command "Move and shoot" A single A-wing could occupy up to two squadrons and maybe 3 if you are lucky, and get a few shots in of it's own with the counter.

If the A-wings have an escort, they are not being used to their full effectiveness. They could nullify a bomber strike just by themselves. I have used them as BOMBERS, when i went up against an opponent without fighters. That black die is something you cannot ignore after a couple of turns

Except that A-Wings can't use critical results or resolve critical effects? Seems like every other craft would be better at bombing...

Criticals, while awesome, don't matter as much at 300 points because you can bring muCh, much more firepower against a single target. How many turns does the ship suffering from the crit actually have left?

Remember that ships typically have zero shields left when they start taking crits, so they are half dead already. AND add in that having zero shields nullifies 1-2 (poor, poor victory) Redirect defense tokens...

Crits mattered when only playing the core set. Ships go pop so fast now that the ship could go pop before it even impacts the game.

crits still matter to a hilarious degree regardless which points level we're playing

the crits in this game are pretty hilariously devastating and considering upgrades like x-17s or how hard it is to redirect multiple attacks (such as with multiple bombers), they're going to be relevant before things start dying.

that doesn't make A-wings the worst rebel anti-ship, however. Speed 5 factors quite a bit into their anti-ship threat.

Except that A-Wings can't use critical results or resolve critical effects? Seems like every other craft would be better at bombing...

Oh yes, obviously. Still even without Bomber a black Die without taking into account the Critical, A-wings still will cause a hit 75% of the time compared to 37.5% with a red die or 50% with blue. It is the best anti-ship squadron without bomber. Even X-wings can only get a hit 62.5% of the time with a red die because of their bomber ability.

More so, to take the expected value of attacks with each rebel squadron against a ship:

X-Wing: 62.5% probability of hit, 25% probability of crit, .75 expected damage

A-Wing: 75% probability of hit, 0% probability of crit, .75 expected damage

Y-Wing: 75% probability of hit, 25% probability of crit, 1 expected damage

B-Wing: 93.75% probability of hit, 56.3% probability of crit, 1.75 expected damage

So the A-wing, in damage terms, is just as good at attacking ships as the X-wing. It's more reliable, but can't crit. The Y-wing is marginally better (.25 damage more), and the B-wing is basically a Y-Wing with an X-wing stapled to it.

So, B Wing >>>> all for anti-ship (no surprise), but the A-wing/Y-wing/X-wing are all so closely clustered that until you get to truly large numbers of squadrons, it's very close in real output terms.

Also, for anti-squadron, your average blue die does .5 damage with a 50pct chance to hit (ignore crits and accuracy), and you end up with:

X-Wing: 6.25% chance to miss, 2 expected damage

A-Wing: 12.5% chance to miss, 1.5 expected damage

Y-Wing: 25% chance to miss, 1 expected damage

B-Wing: 12.5% chance to miss, 1.5 expected damage

Given the marginal difference in performance against ships, this analysis makes it very hard for me to argue in favor of using vanilla Y-wings. However, A-wings and X-wings both have major advantages (as we haven't even factored in speed or counter 2 yet for A-wings), and B-wings are essentially a totally different animal that are probably best through of in role as (very) mini VSDIs given that they are slow, lethal up close, and somewhat vulnerable to squadron swarms.

There are perks to crits, they are situational like having the precision strike objective, or when you have doddona to really make a nasty crit I.e. last game my opponent was able to get 2 crits on me at least 1 from a bomber, that were the first damage dealt to it. The crits were crew panic and a crit that says I can't spend used defense tokens, basically they made it so my Vic was helpless for 2 turns which lead to its death

Agreed, crits can make a HUGE difference......and if you can cause multiple crits....a few fighters squadrons with Bomber can be worth more than a VSD if the situation is right.

I have made a thread in the Fleet build section that will be my master list for my guides, it can be found here.

keep an eye on it for updates that I make.

What I think stinks is that because of Escort you cannot properly combine A-Wings and X-Wings because it limits the A-Wings counter until the X-Wings are gone.

Why can't you use A-wings with X-wings? I think you could probably have A-wings screen for your X-wings. Maybe have Squad Commands for the A-wings to go up and block. Have them move and block the enemy fighters. They get to fire with the squad commands. Have the enemy Tie Fighters fire back at the A-wings (which uses counter attack to do some more damage). Next, you move up 2 squads of X-wings to hit the same damaged units. X-wings stay whole and you smashed the enemy fighters. Now, the X-wings can attack the capital ships since you have superiority.

Of course, this is just theoryhammer as I'm utterly new.

I'm not certain I agree with the advice to spam squadron commands from your carriers, all game long. Once your squadrons are "stuck in" the fight, they can function fairly effectively on their own.

Yes, there is an advantage to using squadron commands to shoot first. But the opportunity cost hasn't been addressed: would another command be better? Remember that ships are the focus of the game, if there is one, and that you lose the game if you lose your ships. Is shooting first more important than getting an extra firepower die, or raising 2-3 shields, removing damage cards, or getting that extra yaw click/speed change to avoid (or cause) a collision, perhaps getting a 2-arc shot onto a nearby VSD?

I made the mistake recently of using CF exclusively in a game, and in retrospect I probably would have been better served issuing a lot of engineering commands to preserve my ships...because (like fighters) you WILL be shooting and causing damage no matter what your command is. However without an engineering command you won't be raising any shields. Big difference there.

I'm not certain I agree with the advice to spam squadron commands from your carriers, all game long. Once your squadrons are "stuck in" the fight, they can function fairly effectively on their own.

Yes, there is an advantage to using squadron commands to shoot first. But the opportunity cost hasn't been addressed: would another command be better? Remember that ships are the focus of the game, if there is one, and that you lose the game if you lose your ships. Is shooting first more important than getting an extra firepower die, or raising 2-3 shields, removing damage cards, or getting that extra yaw click/speed change to avoid (or cause) a collision, perhaps getting a 2-arc shot onto a nearby VSD?

I made the mistake recently of using CF exclusively in a game, and in retrospect I probably would have been better served issuing a lot of engineering commands to preserve my ships...because (like fighters) you WILL be shooting and causing damage no matter what your command is. However without an engineering command you won't be raising any shields. Big difference there.

you bring up a good point and obviously all of my advice is subject to change based on what your opponent does and various different variables BUT, in my experience i have almost always regretted not taking a squadron command with my carriers when i have brought a squad focus list and dumped 20-30 points into upgrades exclusively to help my squadron.

Even after they are engaged Flight controllers adds a huge bonus, heck even just ensuring you shoot first is often worth the command, and then if you are only engaged by 1 or 2 enemy you can kill them with the first squad or 2 then move and attack another target with the rest of your squads in the area and even if your bombers are set up to attack well, what if they over kill? like you have 4 squads to shoot a ship and 2 kill it, so now if you take a command the other 2 can move and engage a different target as well. There will be times were it might be smart to throw in a engineering command and maybe a nav command just to make sure you don't fly off the edge of space. But you will find that carriers pretty much want to do 6 squad commands in a game.

plus you will likely have more squads then your carrier can activate so those squads that will do fine in the squad phase can be left to the squad phase while the other ones that are not engaged can use the command