For one thing, it's a bit . . . off from a retail perspective, and clunky to implement. It makes me picture a new player getting the Falcon and Engine Upgrade, and then later reading something online that tells him that boosting doesn't work the way it should according to the game piece he got.

You mean like the rules for how cloaking works?

Y'all realise that these spaceship battles are all taking place in space? Where there *is* no inertia? The point being that the size and shape of the ship is largely irrelevant for anything except how small a gap in an asteroid field it can fit into?

The rules work just fine as they are. I have seen small ship lists beat large ship lists and vice versa. It's all good.

Too confusing. Trying to remember what you did last turn is hard enough.

Use the KISS principle in all changes.

keep the game simple.

Well eliminating the boost/barrel roll from counting and just sticking to the base dial simplifies it enough.

After all, you don't have to remember anything, then - the maneuver you set last turn is still going to be on your dial this turn, when you pick it up. So you just know you can only go '1' more or less than that number you see in front if you. Or '2' more or less if you are willing to deal with a stress token. Done.

Swarms used to eat fat turrets for lunch. Since nearly no one is running them anymore, maybe there should be new options for swarms to make them viable again. Maybe new pilots or TIE specific upgrades.

Swarms still do okay vs Fat Turrets, but the problem isn't the turret so much as the maneuverability. So while they do fine vs the price penalty turrets pay, against other high-skilled and maneuverable (boosting and barrel-rolling) large-base ships, they get torn apart. EH-Brobots love a swarm, heck even dual Firesprays make short work of them.

Y'all realise that these spaceship battles are all taking place in space? Where there *is* no inertia?

are you confusing drag with inertia?

What about just making the EU cost 6 pts for large based ships? You can get it if you want it but it'll cost you.

What about just making the EU cost 6 pts for large based ships? You can get it if you want it but it'll cost you.

still no, EU is costed correctly regardless of the ship it is attached too.

Y'all realise that these spaceship battles are all taking place in space? Where there *is* no inertia? The point being that the size and shape of the ship is largely irrelevant for anything except how small a gap in an asteroid field it can fit into?

The rules work just fine as they are. I have seen small ship lists beat large ship lists and vice versa. It's all good.

Innertia is very much a thing in space. Dealing with Inertia is actually a major challenge of space exploration, and it's part of the reason FTL is impossible. I think you're thinking of air resistance, which is a very different thing*. Of course, Star Wars dogfighting** is based on the dogfights of the World Wars, where air resistance was a factor, so mechanics that seem to involve air resistance might manage to creep in second hand.

*And actually is still a factor in space, although only on a very, very, very large scale (The average in our galaxy is about 1 hydrogen atom per cubic centimeter, but that number is closer to 1000 in the galactic core, and in the space between the arms of the galaxy, it's even smaller).

**Fleet engagements, on the other hand, draw on the Age of Sail, which is why Armada plays very differently from x-wing. Although with less broadsides due to the extreme ranges generally involved.

Simplest idea I have to "fix" them is by removing the bank option from boosting large base ships.

I agree that boost on a large-based ship can get ridiculous. However, nerfing Engine Upgrade isn't something I want to see happen. For one thing, it's a bit . . . off from a retail perspective, and clunky to implement. It makes me picture a new player getting the Falcon and Engine Upgrade, and then later reading something online that tells him that boosting doesn't work the way it should according to the game piece he got. With barrel rolling, FFG was able to slip in that little rule change for large ships since *technically* it had never been addressed. But with boosting . . . EU comes in a large ship box and the rules are clearly meant for any size of ship.

For another thing, any change that makes boosting on a large base comparable to boosting on a small base is very clunky from a gameplay perspective. Do we really want to track the speed of the maneuver our ships make and the actions that they take each round? (Seriously, how many times have you forgotten Rebel Captive or Gunner or Predator? Do you really think it would be that easy to keep track of speed and action round after round without any disagreement?) The same goes for most other fixes I've seen. I like the idea, for example, of doing a straight boost by setting a four-straight template next to the ship and moving the ship along it, but how do we account for things like obstacles and Prox Mines?

Really, nerfing EU is not the answer to fat ships. The answer is something that hard-counters damage mitigation and 360* arcs. Once, there was the was a swarm, but now, there is nothing (and WOW, does anyone else find it ironic that we keep wishing for swarms to come back? Remember how much we hated them up until Wave IV?)

I think that if there is anything that you could change (and i am still not convinced that there needs to be a large ship nerf at all) then it would have to be boost. I mean they gain so much distance with boosting that it makes them literally faster than any other ship in the game. That might be okay in fluff for the Falcon, but gameplay wise this is the only thing i can see not making sense with large turrets.

Then you have 2 possibilities.

You either prohibit EU for large ships entirely which is just a card errata.

Or you go the way of barrel roll by saying that you take the large side of a template for straight, and for bank you set the template on the outside of the ship.

If it has to be,i am for the first because that would not nerf the Agressor, a ship that does need the mobility and is not as predominant as large turrets.

But honestly i rather would not see any change at all, because i don't see these ships as being as much of a problem as the phantom was, or the Tie Swarm! And they exist for two factions too, on top of that!

Wait a tick - I think your lore argument fails

The Falcon is the fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy

Pretty sure that Dash would have tricked his ride out as well to be comparable - these guys aren't really space truckers - they are scoundrels, think Bandit as opposed to Snowman

You think Boba Fett is going to be the nastiest bounty hunter being slower than his prey?

Also - assuming the Shuttle is Palpatine's primary set of wheels, do you really think it is the pokiest little puppy? Not likely....

(again, that's a lore comment not a dial comment)

So basically, you just don't like the fat meta - well that lines form to the left buddy - and I think many people have stopped listening (including FFG)

I'm not saying I support this proposed nerf, by I disagree with all your points.

Han and Lando bigging up their own ship is hardly something to be taken as gospel, and also doesn't imply they were comparing it to fighters (they could easily have thought "not including dedicated fighters and racers" went without saying).

As for Dash, Fett and Imperial Shuttles, yeah, I'm sure they were pretty slick, compared to other transports, but that by no means suggests they were faster or more manoeuvrable than dedicated fighters.

Wait a tick - I think your lore argument fails

The Falcon is the fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy

Maybe at lightspeed, sure.

I seem to recall a particular TIE Fighter flying through the Aldaraan debris field easily getting ahead of the Falcon, when it was doing everything it could to catch it.

Nevermind the TIE Fighters in the asteroid belt by Hoth doing just find keeping up with it.

Or, heck, in the Death Star interior during RotJ, absolutely everything under the sun keeping up just fine.

Fast at lightspeed != fast at sublight.

Han says "I've outrun Imperial star cruisers, not the local bulk cruisers mind you, I'm talking about the big Corellian ships now. She's fast enough for you old man" -

Later, in reference to your TIE fighter, he says "I think I can get him before he gets there" - implying that Han has little doubt that he can catch a speeding TIE fighter, it's just a question of range to the Death Star

At Hoth, he is outpacing the TIES, they don't overrun him and he is outmaneuvering them in a much larger ship I might add. Those guys keep bouncing off the rocks and exploding.

I'm not saying the YT's in this game should be able to completely outrun TIE fighters across the board but it isn't beyond the lore of what we've seen that they shouldn't be at least as fast as a TIE

I agree. Just watch Lando in the Endor Battle make the Falcon out fly Tie/In. And then in the next frame pull a loop around the connection for a Nebulon B. Or being able to pull up at the last second when he realized the Shield was still up, there were a lot of fighters that did not make that turn as fast. And finally while making the run out of the Death Star the Falcon is ahead of a pair of Tie/In's that if they were faster than the Falcon should have passed it trying to escape but they did not while the Falcon was able to.

Or just use 3PO's quote "Sir, the possibility of successfully navigating an asteroid field is approximately three thousand seven hundred and twenty to one!"

The Tie's are flying full speed to keep up while Han is going at a much slower rate in order to avoid the asteroids. Watch how he slows down to land in the space worm. This has been my problem with the Falcon all along is it is to slow almost, and not maneuverable enough.

just my two cents

But when Luke and Han are manning the turrets the TIEs can do circuits around them. That means they were able not only to catch up with them over a distance, but also to repeatedly reverse direction and still shoot past them.

How about this:

When a large based ship performs a boost action, it receives a stress token.

Has the benefit of being an extremely simple errata. I'd have liked to have made an exception for any large based ships that have boost natively, but I'm not sure how to phrase that. Also, if there aren't any at present, which I don't think there are, then an exception isn't needed, FFG could just take it into account when costing the ship.

Or introduce a new token that represents weapons disabled, and when a large based ship performs a boost it receives one of these tokens (useful for Corran too, and you could introduce new game effects that cause it). It would be removed at the end of the next combat phase.

If disabling weapons for a turn is too much, it could be that your targeting is reduced - defenders get an extra green die, or a focus token, maybe?

Simplest idea I have to "fix" them is by removing the bank option from boosting large base ships.

PWTs wouldn't give a ****

it will make many aggressor and firespray players very unhappy, though

Simplest idea I have to "fix" them is by removing the bank option from boosting large base ships.

PWTs wouldn't give a ****

it will make many aggressor and firespray players very unhappy, though

Yeah. If anything, this might actually push the meta further toward the Decimator and the Falcon, because one of their chief predators (brobots) would be gone, and for that matter shuttles and firesprays aren't bad against them either.

The turret dominance thing is due to a large combination of factors creating a very strong and reasonably forgiving archetype. There's also the issue that a lot of the individual components are also used in other archetypes, and hitting them might make the situation worse by hurting those other archetypes more than the nerf hurt the turrets. Changing the way Primary Weapon Turrets (And only primary weapon turrets) work is one of the few that wouldn't hurt other ships, but that's kind of a delicate balancing act. The other option is to buff other archetypes that prey on fat turrets. And with the raider improving imperial 4-ship lists significantly and Wave 7 providing only one card that adds much to large based turrets*, but giving some other archetypes new tools and ships, we might be seeing some attempts by FFG to help that.

*Whatever the ion modification thing in the Hound's Tooth pack is

For one thing, it's a bit . . . off from a retail perspective, and clunky to implement. It makes me picture a new player getting the Falcon and Engine Upgrade, and then later reading something online that tells him that boosting doesn't work the way it should according to the game piece he got.

You mean like the rules for how cloaking works?

I think cloaking is way to confusing too. They should have just made it.

Cloak Action:

When you choose a cloak action, take the cloak token and place it next to your ship. This token remains until you choose to spend it or your ship is destroyed. While cloaked the cloaked ship cannot fire any weapons or drop bombs.

3 attack for Phantoms

Cloaked ship gains:

+2 Agility while cloaked

When target locked roll a Evade die, on an Evade result the lock fails. The target locking player may use another action if it fails.

Decloak Free Action: Remove your cloak token. Then take a free boost action, This doesn't count towards your normal actions, so you may boost two times in the same turn if you choose the boost action.

Yeah well except that the Phantom has already seen a nerf and while at first most people thought it would not change much, in fact it did! You see way less phantoms and i have experienced first hand that they are now catchable if you maneuver well!

No honestly back to turrets... If we nerf anything concerning the firing rules of the ships i feel they are suddenly completely hosed. They would just cost way too much and i would honestly not want this for the Falcon nor tge Decimator. I think they should play a competitive role.

Thats why i say if any nerf at all, it has to be boost. But not for the Aggressor, and if possible not for the Firespray or the shuttle either... But that's difficult to do. Well no in fact not this difficult. Just errata it "Not for large turret ships". There we go, fixed!