Between Brobots, 'Fat Han', Chirpy, and Super Dash, a lot of folks are getting frustrated with the large-base meta.

Annoyingly, one of the biggest problems with large-base ships ships is also a thematic fail - they are *easily* (when engine-upgraded) the fastest ships in the game. A boosting Imperial Shuttle can race ahead of an A-Wing...and the following turn stop in place while it goes blowing past, unable to react...an epic lore fail if ever there was one. And, of course, let's not even get into the idea of a YT-2400 or YT-1300 freighter being able to *easily* out-turn several fighters (B-Wing, TIE Defender, etc)

So...multiple birds to be killed with the same stone (and, FWIW, I think this idea would combine just fine with the idea of nerfing the large-ship-boost on top of it)...

Give large base-ships inertia

This would be pretty easy to implement, in that you simply limit the maneuver options a large-base ship can take, in relation to what it did the previous turn.

As one suggestion:

• A 'large' base ship can set its dial to any of its maneuvers, treated as the dial's specified color, as long as that maneuver is no more than '1' speed higher or lower than the maneuver speed they performed the previous turn. So, basically, there is no change, here, if your speed is +1/-1 from the previous turn - treat everything the same as normal.
• A 'large' base ship can set its dial to any of its maneuvers if they are up to '2' speed higher or lower than the maneuver speed they performed the previous turn, if they receive a stress token after performing the resulting maneuver. Not sure this is even necessary - it may be sufficient to just limit large-base ships to +1/-1 the previous turn's speed, but giving them some more flexibility at the expense of a stress token seems fair.
• A boost or barrel roll action is treated as +1 speed for the turn over the revealed dial, both for restricting the following turn's options, as well as determining possible penalties for the maneuver this turn. (IE., if you plotted a speed '2' maneuver on turn 1, then a speed '3' maneuver on turn 2 - you are okay, so far, but boosting would result in your having gone '3' this turn vs '2' on turn 1...you get a stress token for doing so. Conversely, if you had been able to plot a speed '4' maneuver this turn, and then boosted, your resulting speed for the turn would end up being '5'...meaning the following turn, you could only perform speed 4 maneuvers without worry, and would gain stress for going speed 3...speeds 1 and 2 maneuvers being impossible )

That would, IMHO, help curb some of the excesses of large-based ships being so bizarrely maneuverable (especially when engine upgraded), as well as bring them more in line as an in-between step between "small, one-man fighters" and the lumbering Huge ships.

I hate fat Han and double turret lists. I hate nerfs even more so I hope there is no nerf. They are stupid.

if you want momentum, come on over to Armada

X-wing was not built for the mechanic and really shouldn't have it forced in

Epic has the feel of momentum

The main thing I don't know how to figure out with your solution is: how do you deal with Advanced Sensor + Engine Upgrade shuttles? Also, I'd find it annoying to have to keep track of the speed of the last turn. There's no token for it and it'd be weird at first to manage it.

too complicated and hurts non-turret ships too much, removes the ability to use Inertial Dampeners correctly and makes shuttles obsolete.

The issue isn't large ships it is FAT TURRETS they fall into a specific category as even dash doesn't fit the requirement fully loaded up.

you must really hate shuttles if you want to nerf EU.

Wait a tick - I think your lore argument fails

The Falcon is the fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy

Pretty sure that Dash would have tricked his ride out as well to be comparable - these guys aren't really space truckers - they are scoundrels, think Bandit as opposed to Snowman

You think Boba Fett is going to be the nastiest bounty hunter being slower than his prey?

Also - assuming the Shuttle is Palpatine's primary set of wheels, do you really think it is the pokiest little puppy? Not likely....

(again, that's a lore comment not a dial comment)

So basically, you just don't like the fat meta - well that lines form to the left buddy - and I think many people have stopped listening (including FFG)

I'm waiting for cluster mines, but enjoying my prox mines in the mean time. Enjoy your large bases when there's no where safe to fly, except for a nimble dodge through asteroids, mines, and bombs.

I don't think we should make this game more complicated, as that tends to keep out newer players.

Wait a tick - I think your lore argument fails

The Falcon is the fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy

Maybe at lightspeed, sure.

I seem to recall a particular TIE Fighter flying through the Aldaraan debris field easily getting ahead of the Falcon, when it was doing everything it could to catch it.

Nevermind the TIE Fighters in the asteroid belt by Hoth doing just find keeping up with it.

Or, heck, in the Death Star interior during RotJ, absolutely everything under the sun keeping up just fine.

Fast at lightspeed != fast at sublight.

What about modifying Boost for Large ships in the same way that Barrel Roll is different for them?

The problem with Boost is that while it makes a small ship move its front face a distance of 2, on a Large ship, it moves a distance of 3 because of the size of the base itself. Then a Large ship boosts further than a Small one. That is counterintuitive.

My proposal is that Boost for Large ships is resolved like this:

Boost for Large Ships

• Place the 2 left bank, 2 straight or 2 right bank template between the frontal nubs of the large ship.
• Then attach the 1 straight template to the opposite end of the speed 2 template so that it seamlessly follows the path.
• Then, while trying to keep the 1 straight template in its current position, remove the speed 2 template.
• Finally, move the large ship so that its frontal nubs match the closest end of the 1 straight template.

To the left, current way. To the right, proposed way (sorry for the low quality).

With this, the large ship's front still moves 2 units, just like small ones do. Also, the final position of the large ship that helps adding the notion of momentum in the sense that the ship keeps moving in its current direction, but manages to rotate and correct course by a little bit.

Yes i also feel that if they need to change something, it would be the boost action. A clunky and complicated inertia system is not needed.

Also there is no large ship meta as you call it. There are small ships in most lists as well and it looks like a fine mix to me, except for Brobots and double Falcon or Falcon/Outrider. And honestly the most winning lists are large/small.

I find it especially worrying how some people throw IGs into the same pot as all the others. They are a good list and can do a lot of different things depending on how you run them, but they are no turret ship tgat can arc-dodge with EU and then just fire at you. They need to maneuver and be played cautiously. They also have won what? 3 regionals? Compared to the insane numbers other lists won that's really nothing! Yet people already hate them and want to see them nerfed? I don't understand that!

Large based ships don't need nerfing. The End.

I agree that boost on a large-based ship can get ridiculous. However, nerfing Engine Upgrade isn't something I want to see happen. For one thing, it's a bit . . . off from a retail perspective, and clunky to implement. It makes me picture a new player getting the Falcon and Engine Upgrade, and then later reading something online that tells him that boosting doesn't work the way it should according to the game piece he got. With barrel rolling, FFG was able to slip in that little rule change for large ships since *technically* it had never been addressed. But with boosting . . . EU comes in a large ship box and the rules are clearly meant for any size of ship.

For another thing, any change that makes boosting on a large base comparable to boosting on a small base is very clunky from a gameplay perspective. Do we really want to track the speed of the maneuver our ships make and the actions that they take each round? (Seriously, how many times have you forgotten Rebel Captive or Gunner or Predator? Do you really think it would be that easy to keep track of speed and action round after round without any disagreement?) The same goes for most other fixes I've seen. I like the idea, for example, of doing a straight boost by setting a four-straight template next to the ship and moving the ship along it, but how do we account for things like obstacles and Prox Mines?

Really, nerfing EU is not the answer to fat ships. The answer is something that hard-counters damage mitigation and 360* arcs. Once, there was the was a swarm, but now, there is nothing (and WOW, does anyone else find it ironic that we keep wishing for swarms to come back? Remember how much we hated them up until Wave IV?)

You guys think this might be acceptable\work?

"Any ship that used boost or barrel roll this turn can only attack within its primary firing arc this turn"

You guys think this might be acceptable\work?

"Any ship that used boost or barrel roll this turn can only attack within its primary firing arc this turn"

You also disable hot shot blaster and completely kill dash

Wait a tick - I think your lore argument fails

The Falcon is the fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy

Maybe at lightspeed, sure.

I seem to recall a particular TIE Fighter flying through the Aldaraan debris field easily getting ahead of the Falcon, when it was doing everything it could to catch it.

Nevermind the TIE Fighters in the asteroid belt by Hoth doing just find keeping up with it.

Or, heck, in the Death Star interior during RotJ, absolutely everything under the sun keeping up just fine.

Fast at lightspeed != fast at sublight.

Han says "I've outrun Imperial star cruisers, not the local bulk cruisers mind you, I'm talking about the big Corellian ships now. She's fast enough for you old man" -

Later, in reference to your TIE fighter, he says "I think I can get him before he gets there" - implying that Han has little doubt that he can catch a speeding TIE fighter, it's just a question of range to the Death Star

At Hoth, he is outpacing the TIES, they don't overrun him and he is outmaneuvering them in a much larger ship I might add. Those guys keep bouncing off the rocks and exploding.

I'm not saying the YT's in this game should be able to completely outrun TIE fighters across the board but it isn't beyond the lore of what we've seen that they shouldn't be at least as fast as a TIE

Wait a tick - I think your lore argument fails

The Falcon is the fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy

Maybe at lightspeed, sure.

I seem to recall a particular TIE Fighter flying through the Aldaraan debris field easily getting ahead of the Falcon, when it was doing everything it could to catch it.

Nevermind the TIE Fighters in the asteroid belt by Hoth doing just find keeping up with it.

Or, heck, in the Death Star interior during RotJ, absolutely everything under the sun keeping up just fine.

Fast at lightspeed != fast at sublight.

Han says "I've outrun Imperial star cruisers, not the local bulk cruisers mind you, I'm talking about the big Corellian ships now. She's fast enough for you old man" -

Later, in reference to your TIE fighter, he says "I think I can get him before he gets there" - implying that Han has little doubt that he can catch a speeding TIE fighter, it's just a question of range to the Death Star

At Hoth, he is outpacing the TIES, they don't overrun him and he is outmaneuvering them in a much larger ship I might add. Those guys keep bouncing off the rocks and exploding.

I'm not saying the YT's in this game should be able to completely outrun TIE fighters across the board but it isn't beyond the lore of what we've seen that they shouldn't be at least as fast as a TIE

I agree. Just watch Lando in the Endor Battle make the Falcon out fly Tie/In. And then in the next frame pull a loop around the connection for a Nebulon B. Or being able to pull up at the last second when he realized the Shield was still up, there were a lot of fighters that did not make that turn as fast. And finally while making the run out of the Death Star the Falcon is ahead of a pair of Tie/In's that if they were faster than the Falcon should have passed it trying to escape but they did not while the Falcon was able to.

Or just use 3PO's quote "Sir, the possibility of successfully navigating an asteroid field is approximately three thousand seven hundred and twenty to one!"

The Tie's are flying full speed to keep up while Han is going at a much slower rate in order to avoid the asteroids. Watch how he slows down to land in the space worm. This has been my problem with the Falcon all along is it is to slow almost, and not maneuverable enough.

just my two cents

What about modifying Boost for Large ships in the same way that Barrel Roll is different for them?

The problem with Boost is that while it makes a small ship move its front face a distance of 2, on a Large ship, it moves a distance of 3 because of the size of the base itself. Then a Large ship boosts further than a Small one. That is counterintuitive.

My proposal is that Boost for Large ships is resolved like this:

Boost for Large Ships

• Place the 2 left bank, 2 straight or 2 right bank template between the frontal nubs of the large ship.
• Then attach the 1 straight template to the opposite end of the speed 2 template so that it seamlessly follows the path.
• Then, while trying to keep the 1 straight template in its current position, remove the speed 2 template.
• Finally, move the large ship so that its frontal nubs match the closest end of the 1 straight template.

To the left, current way. To the right, proposed way (sorry for the low quality).

With this, the large ship's front still moves 2 units, just like small ones do. Also, the final position of the large ship that helps adding the notion of momentum in the sense that the ship keeps moving in its current direction, but manages to rotate and correct course by a little bit.

This makes a lot of sense. It still helps the lambda with its turning while dealing with the distance issue.

Epic ships move with momentum. When they turn they rotate from the center axis not the back of the base as with small and large ships. Makes them sort of drift as they change direction.

Too confusing. Trying to remember what you did last turn is hard enough.

Use the KISS principle in all changes.

keep the game simple.

Swarms used to eat fat turrets for lunch. Since nearly no one is running them anymore, maybe there should be new options for swarms to make them viable again. Maybe new pilots or TIE specific upgrades.

One of the reasons I love this game is its simplicity. The rule book is essentially a 5 page pamphlet. I can play a game with my son or my dad. Both "get it" and quickly too. I can think of another miniature game, set 38,000 years into the future, that requires a $100 rule book to understand the rules, as well as an independent army book to give the rules for your specific faction. Just understanding how to play something like that is a big deal, and can make for some very long games.. .... Keep it simple also keeps game time down. A game can be had in an hour or so. Quick set up. Playing quickly, and can be made to have very few special rules (4bz). Momentum and other special rules, modifiers to remember next round etc all add to difficulty as well as needlessly complicating things. Armada is different from x wing for this very reason. If u want that stuff, go with Armada. Otherwise. Get some btl y wings with r3 and stress ion those suckers off the board.

One of the reasons I love this game is its simplicity. The rule book is essentially a 5 page pamphlet. I can play a game with my son or my dad. Both "get it" and quickly too. I can think of another miniature game, set 38,000 years into the future, that requires a $100 rule book to understand the rules, as well as an independent army book to give the rules for your specific faction. Just understanding how to play something like that is a big deal, and can make for some very long games.. .... Keep it simple also keeps game time down. A game can be had in an hour or so. Quick set up. Playing quickly, and can be made to have very few special rules (4bz). Momentum and other special rules, modifiers to remember next round etc all add to difficulty as well as needlessly complicating things. Armada is different from x wing for this very reason. If u want that stuff, go with Armada. Otherwise. Get some btl y wings with r3 and stress ion those suckers off the board.

also, this is a more viable biggs