It's obvious we see things completely differently. I see two explicit ranges, only one of which is increased. While I don't agree, y'all do what works best for you

-EF

Sam isn't confused about anything, trust me, this issue and power were specifically mentioned in one of my Alpha test reports for F&D and I'd be willing to bet other teams did so also. I specifically talked about the Sil issue in the report. He is acutely aware of the issue.

Unfortunately, that's not possible with the Move power. The targets must be within short range of you at all times. The range upgrade increases the maximum range you may move something, but it still must start out at short range to you.

I believe that is incorrect, and has been confirmed by the developers. The X-Wing was hardly in short range when it was in the swamp.

just wanted to quote, not like.

the x-wing was definitely in short range.

i also disagree with eldritch fire, though. the way i read move, the target has to be within short range when you activate the power. it can then be moved up to the maximum range, which is also short as a default. if you buy range upgrades you can hit targets further away.

Whether or not it is Rules as Intended, it is definitely Rules as Written. And I also say given that someone is unlikely to have been so meticulous with their wording and still say other than what they meant, I think it is also Rules as Intended. The book is quite clear that you can move something within Short Range of you up to your maximum distance and that the Range upgrades increase (specific wording again) your maximum distance.

You are correct with the way its worded, I'm just going by what Sam Stewart has said, and the question that was asked is fairly clear.

What I think is unbalanced is that If you have generated 4 Force Pips, and you have the base power plus two range upgrades, two Strength upgrades and the first Control upgrade (total 50XP), you could effectively throw a YT-1300 to medium range and cause 40 points of damage (i.e. 1 [base] + 1 [+2 Silhouette] + 1 [+2 Silhouette] + 1 [+1 Range Band ]). You only need FR2 to do that. I personally think the balancing factor should be that you can only spend 1 Force Pip per upgrade type.

True it can be done with FR2, but good luck rolling that result when you need it. You have a 6% chance of scoring 4 points on just two Force dice. So on the eighth turn of combat trying to throw that ship at someone, you might succeed. Your team mates will have either won the battle or all be dead by that point.

Plus you're pretty unlikely to hit with a Daunting (PPPP) Discipline check you need to aim it.

It's not as bad as you think. Do not mistake Force Rating for how powerful in the Force someone is. You can build Obi-Wan fairly comfortably with FR3. But you have to spend a lot of XP on all the powers and upgrades!

I seem to recall Sam's answer that the Range Upgrades on Move being applied to the base range (i.e. allowing you to affect things that are outside short range) was given after the Force and Destiny Beta period was completed.

As to whether it'll make into the errata for EotE/AoR or the FaD corebook remains to be seen.

Unfortunately, that's not possible with the Move power. The targets must be within short range of you at all times. The range upgrade increases the maximum range you may move something, but it still must start out at short range to you.

I believe that is incorrect, and has been confirmed by the developers. The X-Wing was hardly in short range when it was in the swamp.

just wanted to quote, not like.

the x-wing was definitely in short range.

i also disagree with eldritch fire, though. the way i read move, the target has to be within short range when you activate the power. it can then be moved up to the maximum range, which is also short as a default. if you buy range upgrades you can hit targets further away.

Whether or not it is Rules as Intended, it is definitely Rules as Written. And I also say given that someone is unlikely to have been so meticulous with their wording and still say other than what they meant, I think it is also Rules as Intended. The book is quite clear that you can move something within Short Range of you up to your maximum distance and that the Range upgrades increase (specific wording again) your maximum distance.

yeah, like i said, i still think you can read it like that.

but if the lead designer says otherwise it's pretty pointless to keep arguing the point. if he doesn't know how the rule is intended noone does.

I seem to recall Sam's answer that the Range Upgrades on Move being applied to the base range (i.e. allowing you to affect things that are outside short range) was given after the Force and Destiny Beta period was completed.

As to whether it'll make into the errata for EotE/AoR or the FaD corebook remains to be seen.

It's true. I asked him after reviewing Move in the Force and Destiny. Like many here, I originally thought that it only affected the maximum range, and that the object had to have started out within short range. But the wording gave me doubt so I waited until I had the Force and Destiny beta in hand before submitting my question.

This discrepancy has become surprisingly divisive.

Hi Guys,

When using the force power Move, do you have to spend one point to activate the power, and then additional points to increase the Magnitude (number targets), Strength (size of the objects) and the Range (distance away from the item moved)?

For example, if a character wanted to move two speeders (Silhouette 2) which were at medium range away from the character, would it cost a total of 7 points.

BREAKDOWN

1 (base) + 2 (magnitude) + 2 (strength) + 2 (range)

Unfortunately, that's not possible with the Move power. The targets must be within short range of you at all times. The range upgrade increases the maximum range you may move something, but it still must start out at short range to you.

-EF

I don't see the range issue as confusing. The upgrade increases the range "at which" the user can move objects not 'to which'. The upgrade increases "power's range" with the distance something is effected being part of 'the power' imo.

Except that's not how it's written. The range upgrade allows you to "pend [1 Force pip] to increase the maximum range at which the Force user can move objects…" (bold mine, CRB pages 284–285).

And the base power states that "[t]he user may spend [1 Force pip] to move one object of silhouette 0 that is within short range up to his maximum range. The default maximum range is short range" (CRB 283).

There are two different ranges in play: ​within short range is the range limit of how far it has to be to move it. The second is the maximum range, which defaults to short as well, but can be increased by the range upgrades.

So I agree that the range issue isn't confusing, it's just being misapplied. To me, the text is clear: you can only move objects within short range of you, but you can move it beyond short range with the range upgrades.

-EF

I think you're inferring a meaning where no commas are present. "that is within short range up to his maximum range" is all one identifier. Not two separate concepts.

Thanks peeps thus far for your responses. It has confused me more as to which way to go, but I think I have enough information to house rule it until F&D drops.

To explain which way I'm going, I believe that there should be a limitation on the number of pips that can be allocated to upgrades at any one time. I guess I cite range as an example:

Spend [Force Pip] to increase power's range by a number of range bands equal to Range upgrades purchased.

I don't think its a co-incidence that there are three Range upgrades and then three range bands beyond Short range in character scale. Spending no more than one Force Pip, instead of this multiple times thing, is plenty, and I think given the coincidence, it was certainly the intent to limit it to just the spending on one pip per upgrade. After all, where do you go beyond Extreme range as there is no correlation (other than perhaps an inferred one) between Character scale and starship combat scale ranges.

Even with this, its dubious as with everything maxed out, a character could (if they had the Force Rating - a minimum of FR2 in this case) effectively throw 5 [4 x Magnitude Upgrades] YT-1300s [4 x Strength Upgrades - up to Silhouette 4] up to Extreme Range [Range Upgrades x 3] all for the cost of 4 pips. ZOMG!

That is the whole point of the upgrades stacking. When you can reliably get to 4 pips (which is FR4+) you are on the high end of Force Strength. For someone with FR2 they'd only get that 1/144 times if they are trying to avoid dark side pips. So, not that likely.

Thanks peeps thus far for your responses. It has confused me more as to which way to go, but I think I have enough information to house rule it until F&D drops.

To explain which way I'm going, I believe that there should be a limitation on the number of pips that can be allocated to upgrades at any one time. I guess I cite range as an example:

There is a limitation already. You can only activate an upgrade once unless the upgrade specifically states that you can't. The errata for AoR however, explicitly states that Strength upgrade is one of these. So if you simple play without that errata, it's already this.

However, by forbidding multiple activations you are denying the player who has only purchased one Strength upgrade from having an exceptional roll and lifting the speeder bike or whatever. That seems a shame. If what you want to accomplish is simply to rule out these high end scenarios, I would suggest changing your rule to simply be that "Multiple activations cannot exceed the effect of the maximum upgrade". That way you avoid your YT-1300 scenario whilst avoiding penalizing low-end Force users. They can still have their exceptional rolls that they enjoy.

Even with this, its dubious as with everything maxed out, a character could (if they had the Force Rating - a minimum of FR2 in this case) effectively throw 5 [4 x Magnitude Upgrades] YT-1300s [4 x Strength Upgrades - up to Silhouette 4] up to Extreme Range [Range Upgrades x 3] all for the cost of 4 pips. ZOMG!

Someone with a fully maxed out Force tree is an extremely powerful Force master, just keep in mind. They've spent 130XP on a single power and that's still skipping a couple of Control upgrades that would let do things like insert a key card into a lock or pull something from someone's hands. And we haven't taken account of any supporting skills they need to properly make use of this either. And still three times out of four they'll fail. What I want to get across is that Force Rating is not how powerful a Jedi is. You can build Obi-Wan from the PT / TCW fairly comfortably with only FR2. A FR2 character might actually be an extremely accomplished Force user with a huge investment of XP in Force powers.

Thanks peeps thus far for your responses. It has confused me more as to which way to go, but I think I have enough information to house rule it until F&D drops.

To explain which way I'm going, I believe that there should be a limitation on the number of pips that can be allocated to upgrades at any one time. I guess I cite range as an example:

Spend [Force Pip] to increase power's range by a number of range bands equal to Range upgrades purchased.

I don't think its a co-incidence that there are three Range upgrades and then three range bands beyond Short range in character scale. Spending no more than one Force Pip, instead of this multiple times thing, is plenty, and I think given the coincidence, it was certainly the intent to limit it to just the spending on one pip per upgrade. After all, where do you go beyond Extreme range as there is no correlation (other than perhaps an inferred one) between Character scale and starship combat scale ranges.

Even with this, its dubious as with everything maxed out, a character could (if they had the Force Rating - a minimum of FR2 in this case) effectively throw 5 [4 x Magnitude Upgrades] YT-1300s [4 x Strength Upgrades - up to Silhouette 4] up to Extreme Range [Range Upgrades x 3] all for the cost of 4 pips. ZOMG!

That is the whole point of the upgrades stacking. When you can reliably get to 4 pips (which is FR4+) you are on the high end of Force Strength. For someone with FR2 they'd only get that 1/144 times if they are trying to avoid dark side pips. So, not that likely.

I agree with your point, but there are multiple two pip sides on a Force die, so it would actually be 1/16 times. Still a lot of rounds for your character to be standing there waving at Spaceships mind you and given that a GM is not obliged to give you endless attempts to try the same thing over and over, there's no guarantee you'd wver pull this off. I'm picturing applying this to a Slicing roll. "I try and hack the Death Stars computers" and a character just rolling the dice over and over until eventually they finally manage it. Uh, no.

I agree with your point, but there are multiple two pip sides on a Force die, so it would actually be 1/16 times.

The talk of percentages is irrelevant if you want to consider canon use. The point is it's just not doable *at all*. This:

Even with this, its dubious as with everything maxed out, a character could (if they had the Force Rating - a minimum of FR2 in this case) effectively throw 5 [4 x Magnitude Upgrades] YT-1300s [4 x Strength Upgrades - up to Silhouette 4] up to Extreme Range [Range Upgrades x 3] all for the cost of 4 pips. ZOMG!

...is entirely doable reliably with FR4. I'm not one to shoehorn the iconic characters into the smallest FR possible--if that works at your table, go for it, but it doesn't work at mine--so most Jedi Masters will have FR4+ at my table, never mind the Dookus, Yodas, and Palpatines. And they don't do any of that.

I agree with your point, but there are multiple two pip sides on a Force die, so it would actually be 1/16 times.

The talk of percentages is irrelevant if you want to consider canon use. The point is it's just not doable *at all*.

Even with this, its dubious as with everything maxed out, a character could (if they had the Force Rating - a minimum of FR2 in this case) effectively throw 5 [4 x Magnitude Upgrades] YT-1300s [4 x Strength Upgrades - up to Silhouette 4] up to Extreme Range [Range Upgrades x 3] all for the cost of 4 pips. ZOMG!

...is entirely doable reliably with FR4. I'm not one to shoehorn the iconic characters into the smallest FR possible--if that works at your table, go for it, but it doesn't work at mine--so most Jedi Masters will have FR4+ at my table, never mind the Dookus, Yodas, and Palpatines. And they don't do any of that.

Yes, it's more doable with FR4. But where is it written that one's power with the Force is determined by Force Rating? That might sound counter-intuitive given the naming, but from the rules as written, the difference between an experienced Jedi and some Padawan might be nothing to do with their respective Force Ratings which could well be the same. It's to do with their skill and practice at using the Force - i.e. investment in powers. You talk about "shoe-horning" characters into the lowest possible FR. What is shoe-horning about making Obi-Wan FR2 if that build dose everything we see the character do in the movies and official cartoons? Just because you have assumed that FR should be some scale from younglings and padawans down one end and masters at the other, doesn't mean that's actually the best way to represent it in the rules system. I think you're bringing your preconceptions of what FR must mean to the game rather than looking at how Force capability is actually a composite of multiple factors.

Your FR4 character would have had to spend a minimum of around 225 points to get that and that's with making a hyper-focused character obsessed with just this to the point that they would probably be hopelessly out of their depth in every other area in actual play. And then you would need to add in the actual purchase of Move and all the upgrades so add a further 120 points for all that to get to the scenario we are talking about. We're now looking at around 350XP spent to get to this with none spent anywhere other than in pursuit of this one trick. That is a LOT. Knight Level play gives you the extra 150XP, doesn't it? So if Jedi Knight level is 150XP and you've already spent over twice that on one Force ability...! You're talking a character significantly beyond a Jedi Knight, probably Master level, who has seemingly dedicated their entire existence to moving objects.

I'm not sure that's actually incompatible with canon. If Yoda or Windu had dedicated their life to moving objects they might be capable of the same. But then of course they probably wouldn't have survived to get where they are if they had.

Frankly, I find it hilarious that we have several folks citing "canon!" about what Move can/should or can't/shouldn't be able to do, and yet the FFG books are packed to the gills with stuff that's pretty much not canon anymore.

The FFG books are pretty much Legends at this point, so the idea of more than just a couple types of Star Destroyers (basic and super-size) or the existence of TIE Defenders and E-Wings or that Centerpoint Station is a thing or that Boba Fett and Jango Fett were anything more than a couple of amoral mercenaries only in it for the credits wearing armor of a dead culture they had no part in are just as "non-canon" as Force users being able to move ginormous objects (Silhouette 4+) with their minds or do various other crazy Force stunts that we've seen through the course of the EU. Technically, there's no "canon" justification for Foresee having any ability to affect initiative, or for the Misdirect power at all, and yet those things exist in the game.

Frankly, I find it hilarious that we have several folks citing "canon!" about what Move can/should or can't/shouldn't be able to do, and yet the FFG books are packed to the gills with stuff that's pretty much not canon anymore.

So what's wrong with running a game at our own tables that strives to capture a more subdued flavour rather than the Force Unleashed?

Technically, there's no "canon" justification for Foresee having any ability to affect initiative, or for the Misdirect power at all, and yet those things exist in the game.

Agreed, but I'm not seeing a need in my game to address these yet.

Frankly, I find it hilarious that we have several folks citing "canon!" about what Move can/should or can't/shouldn't be able to do, and yet the FFG books are packed to the gills with stuff that's pretty much not canon anymore.

So what's wrong with running a game at our own tables that strives to capture a more subdued flavour rather than the Force Unleashed?

Technically, there's no "canon" justification for Foresee having any ability to affect initiative, or for the Misdirect power at all, and yet those things exist in the game.

Agreed, but I'm not seeing a need in my game to address these yet.

It is not a discussion solely about canon and to insinuate that is to cherry pick.

It's a discussion involving canon appropriateness on the sidelines about an item in the game that introduces a level of unbalance into the game. If anything introduced in the game causes a balance issue I see nothing wrong with pointing it out.

Auto-fire is canon, but its application in the game is widely seen as OP. I see pointing out the non canon flavor of something that in addition causes imbalance to be all the more reason for something to be addressed, not less of a reason.

I also think it is possible to point out a game issues and discuss them without commenting on the validity of other poster's opinions.

Frankly, I find it hilarious that we have several folks citing "canon!" about what Move can/should or can't/shouldn't be able to do, and yet the FFG books are packed to the gills with stuff that's pretty much not canon anymore.

The FFG books are pretty much Legends at this point, so the idea of more than just a couple types of Star Destroyers (basic and super-size) or the existence of TIE Defenders and E-Wings or that Centerpoint Station is a thing or that Boba Fett and Jango Fett were anything more than a couple of amoral mercenaries only in it for the credits wearing armor of a dead culture they had no part in are just as "non-canon" as Force users being able to move ginormous objects (Silhouette 4+) with their minds or do various other crazy Force stunts that we've seen through the course of the EU. Technically, there's no "canon" justification for Foresee having any ability to affect initiative, or for the Misdirect power at all, and yet those things exist in the game.

Yeah, the game is what it is. But it's useful to tie it back to the films or TCW to have common ground to discuss power levels. It seems to me that "Knight Level" play is pitched reasonably well around what a recently graduated Jedi knight might be, based on the movies.

Frankly, I find it hilarious that we have several folks citing "canon!" about what Move can/should or can't/shouldn't be able to do, and yet the FFG books are packed to the gills with stuff that's pretty much not canon anymore.

So what's wrong with running a game at our own tables that strives to capture a more subdued flavour rather than the Force Unleashed?

Frankly, I find it hilarious that we have several folks citing "canon!" about what Move can/should or can't/shouldn't be able to do, and yet the FFG books are packed to the gills with stuff that's pretty much not canon anymore.

So what's wrong with running a game at our own tables that strives to capture a more subdued flavour rather than the Force Unleashed?

Technically, there's no "canon" justification for Foresee having any ability to affect initiative, or for the Misdirect power at all, and yet those things exist in the game.

Agreed, but I'm not seeing a need in my game to address these yet.

It is not a discussion solely about canon and to insinuate that is to cherry pick.

It's a discussion involving canon appropriateness on the sidelines about an item in the game that introduces a level of unbalance into the game. If anything introduced in the game causes a balance issue I see nothing wrong with pointing it out.

Auto-fire is canon, but its application in the game is widely seen as OP. I see pointing out the non canon flavor of something that in addition causes imbalance to be all the more reason for something to be addressed, not less of a reason.

I also think it is possible to point out a game issues and discuss them without commenting on the validity of other poster's opinions.

The thing is, I don't think the Move power is unbalanced for a list of reasons given earlier. If you're considering it in terms of how much damage you can do, it's not awful but it's far from the most effective way to spend XP for that and it is dangerously situational.

Frankly, I find it hilarious that we have several folks citing "canon!" about what Move can/should or can't/shouldn't be able to do, and yet the FFG books are packed to the gills with stuff that's pretty much not canon anymore.

So what's wrong with running a game at our own tables that strives to capture a more subdued flavour rather than the Force Unleashed?

I don't think anyone said that there was anything wrong with that, did they?

Frankly, I find it hilarious that we have several folks citing "canon!" about what Move can/should or can't/shouldn't be able to do, and yet the FFG books are packed to the gills with stuff that's pretty much not canon anymore.

So what's wrong with running a game at our own tables that strives to capture a more subdued flavour rather than the Force Unleashed?

Technically, there's no "canon" justification for Foresee having any ability to affect initiative, or for the Misdirect power at all, and yet those things exist in the game.

Agreed, but I'm not seeing a need in my game to address these yet.

It is not a discussion solely about canon and to insinuate that is to cherry pick.

It's a discussion involving canon appropriateness on the sidelines about an item in the game that introduces a level of unbalance into the game. If anything introduced in the game causes a balance issue I see nothing wrong with pointing it out.

Auto-fire is canon, but its application in the game is widely seen as OP. I see pointing out the non canon flavor of something that in addition causes imbalance to be all the more reason for something to be addressed, not less of a reason.

I also think it is possible to point out a game issues and discuss them without commenting on the validity of other poster's opinions.

The thing is, I don't think the Move power is unbalanced for a list of reasons given earlier. If you're considering it in terms of how much damage you can do, it's not awful but it's far from the most effective way to spend XP for that and it is dangerously situational.

I wasn't talking to you.

Frankly, I find it hilarious that we have several folks citing "canon!" about what Move can/should or can't/shouldn't be able to do, and yet the FFG books are packed to the gills with stuff that's pretty much not canon anymore.

For me, the issue isn’t so much about what is or is not canon. For me, the much, much bigger issue is causing me to completely drop out of the game because the actions being discussed are so completely OP and I totally lose my ability to suspend disbelief.

Thus, I fall back on what we have seen in the movies as the maximum power ever demonstrated by the most powerful Force users in the galaxy (e.g., Yoda, Uncle Palpy, etc…). And if they didn’t do something at a time when it would most definitely have been in their best interest, then the reason is probably that they were UNABLE to do it, or sufficiently unsure of their abilities to that extent that they were not willing to take the risk even under extreme circumstances.

And if Yoda and Uncle Palpy can’t do something, then there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why a PC should be able to do it — or more/bigger/worse/whatever.

That is the fundamental breakdown for me.

If you want to run a Force Unleashed scale of game that it totally over-the-top throughout, then more power to you.

But speaking only for myself, that’s not the kind of game I want to play in.

Hi Guys,

When using the force power Move, do you have to spend one point to activate the power, and then additional points to increase the Magnitude (number targets), Strength (size of the objects) and the Range (distance away from the item moved)?

For example, if a character wanted to move two speeders (Silhouette 2) which were at medium range away from the character, would it cost a total of 7 points.

BREAKDOWN

1 (base) + 2 (magnitude) + 2 (strength) + 2 (range)

Unfortunately, that's not possible with the Move power. The targets must be within short range of you at all times. The range upgrade increases the maximum range you may move something, but it still must start out at short range to you.

-EF

This has been clarified by the devs. You can move anything to anywhere you have the range to reach.

You're just reprinting what is written. Explain why doesn't the upgrade which says "maximum range at which" mean the distance a target can be influenced the user also increase to you?

Because "maximum range" is a specific thing called out in the base power. The base power has two ranges that we need to consider: the target must be within short range, and it can be moved up to your maximum range. The first is a constant, it never changes. The object to be moved must always be within short range. The maximum range is the only range that is altered by the range upgrade.

Let:

x=short range

y=short range

z=the number of range upgrades you have purchased

You may move any object within x range of you up to y range for one pip. Spend one pip on range upgrade and you can now move any object within x range of you up to y+z range. Spend two pips and it's any object within x range of you up to y+(2z) range.

x and y are two separate and unique instances of a specified distance. Just because they start out the same doesn't mean they're always equal.

-EF

Ummm the devs have clarified this.

The more and more I hear about it, the less likely I am going to change what the book, Errata and Devs have already suggested. I think I look at FR2 and think "MY GOD! That's 4 Force Points they have there". In actual fact, at that stage, one of the dice is probably going to be committed to sense, or some other power.

The more I read, the more I know:

a) how the powers work (which was my original question)

b) I won't mess with what the rules say

c) that its not as powerful as I think it is.

The more and more I hear about it, the less likely I am going to change what the book, Errata and Devs have already suggested. I think I look at FR2 and think "MY GOD! That's 4 Force Points they have there". In actual fact, at that stage, one of the dice is probably going to be committed to sense, or some other power.

The more I read, the more I know:

a) how the powers work (which was my original question)

b) I won't mess with what the rules say

c) that its not as powerful as I think it is.

If it turns out to not be what you want, you can always mess with it later. Obviously in a perfect world we'd get everything right the first time, but it will be a while if ever before you have to worry about this stuff. One of the things I particularly like about how they handled the Force is that a Jedi master who does have a higher Force Rating doesn't necessarily find that they're suddenly able to do staggeringly amazing things all of a sudden, but that they can now do the same thing as before but with a little more reliability and / or whilst doing something else as well. Young Ahsoka might be able to move that heavy crate when she really needs to save her life by doing so, but it's a will-she wont-she. Anakin the older Jedi can more confidently send that crate flying around he knows he can do it. Master Windu lifts the same crate, but does so without losing his connection to the Force around him and sensing his enemy creeping up behind him. There you have (hypothetically) FR1, 2 and 3 all roughly able to do the same thing, but still gaining from the increased Force Rating in subtle ways.

N.b. the numbers above are just to illustrate a point. I'm not saying that's what these characters necessarily have or how they've bought upgrades.