I see a lot of FFG's other games are availible for purchase on Drive Thru RPG but I don't see an pdf/ebook version. Is there any place out there that can sell this as a pdf? I'd kind of like to eliminate clutter.

As I understand, it has something to do with Disney's stance on digital content, which (to the Mouse) includes digital PDFs, and FFG doesn't have the contract to deal in digital content. I could be wrong, however. Maybe down the road

It is a holdover from LucasArts licensing in that digital content is covered under a different license than print. Therefore FFG would have to have paid for two different licenses to produce pdfs of their print game. Now that Disney has ownership this may change in the future, but not as of now.

ah, so the lawyers don't know the difference between a pdf and a video game. This sucks, I would have preferred to pay for it so I don't have to carry so many books. Thanks anyway though. I guess I could always scan it for personal use, that would just take forever.

I would imagine that if it was something simple to fix it would have been done by now. WotC had to abide by it back when they had the license and FFG does now. Both had their contracts with LucasArts. Now that Disney has ownership this may be changed in the future once contracts are renegotiated. Until then FFG must abide by the current stipulations. Believe me, if they could produce pdfs they would.

I have a sliver of a hope that the delay in the Force and Destiny Beginner Game is for an announcement of PDF sales. I really doubt this to be true. The longer we go without an announcement since the renewing of the license, the less likely FFG got the rights to sell PDFs.

This edition of Star Wars is that last I will be buying of physical books. So if Disney does not sell PDFs, they will be losing me as a customer when FFG ends this version of Star Wars.

I would imagine that if it was something simple to fix it would have been done by now. WotC had to abide by it back when they had the license and FFG does now. Both had their contracts with LucasArts. Now that Disney has ownership this may be changed in the future once contracts are renegotiated. Until then FFG must abide by the current stipulations. Believe me, if they could produce pdfs they would.

FFG just renewed their contract with Disney. If they did not get the rights to sell the PDFs, it is unlikely they will if they get another contract.

I would imagine that if it was something simple to fix it would have been done by now. WotC had to abide by it back when they had the license and FFG does now. Both had their contracts with LucasArts. Now that Disney has ownership this may be changed in the future once contracts are renegotiated. Until then FFG must abide by the current stipulations. Believe me, if they could produce pdfs they would.

FFG just renewed their contract with Disney. If they did not get the rights to sell the PDFs, it is unlikely they will if they get another contract.

I disagree. In general, the ability to produce Star Wars merchandise is like a license to print money. While I'm sure they would love to be able to sell PDFs, I'm sure they would renew the contract even without that particular license.

The issue is on the electronic materials side. It'll be interesting to see what happens when the current digital license expires (which I think is with EA?) and whether or not Disney renegotiates that part of the contract. I don't think they use it, and denying the PDF license to FFG only keeps FFG and Disney from making more money.

I'm no lawyer, though. It could be a lot more complicated than that.

Just taking a stab here, it could also be a matter of profitability. Since PDF has become such an extremely popular format in terms of digital print media, I'm sure the execs and legals at Disney know it is a goldmine. Knowing that it is a goldmine and that the expenses of selling PDF copies of anything is minimal, Disney could have required a greater licensing fee for the digital prints to an extent that the profitability of acquiring the digital print rights may be less than it would with the printed physical copies.

For example, for the printed copies Disney could take 25% slice of the sale price while for the digital copies Disney may take 50% slice of the reduced sale price due to the ease of selling and "shipping" the digital copies. That 25% slice could mean 20% profit for FFG while the 50% slice could mean much less profit or even a loss.

Then again it's also possible that Disney's licensing fee is a cut of the profit, rather than sales, for digital print media whereas the licensing fee for printed media is a cut of the total sales of the printed product.

But this all conjecture and even asking FFG probably won't get us the answer. I suppose someone could organize a petition or something that shows there is a demand for digital print media forms of FFG's products but that would be no guarantee either.

ah, so the lawyers don't know the difference between a pdf and a video game. This sucks, I would have preferred to pay for it so I don't have to carry so many books. Thanks anyway though. I guess I could always scan it for personal use, that would just take forever.

It is not so much that they don't know, I would think, and more that they decided not to redo the licence, contracts, or whatever have you from BEFORE a time when .pdf's were a thing. LucasArts who was the publisher of the video games was much older than any digital format of document or document readers.

There is also to fact that RPG players are a small market, always have been. So, if players of RPG's is only a small demographic, the players of RPG's who are also Star Wars fans is as all subsection of that demographic. It comes down to this: for such a small group of people that Star Wars RPG players represent, it is not worth it to redo the entire liscense structure. Especially off video games, comics, books are all going to sell regardless.

I'd even wager if fantasy flight was told to either cancel the RPG or X-wing, the RPG would be long gone. It makes more money for them I'm sure.

Before calling something a stupid decision, try seeing it from another point of view. Disney's lawyers would probably cost more per hour than the sale of pdf's would make in a year, or even 10 years. I am sure, one day, things will change. Digital distribution is only in its infancy after all - though to continue that analogy, it is growing up real fast.

Just taking a stab here, it could also be a matter of profitability. Since PDF has become such an extremely popular format in terms of digital print media, I'm sure the execs and legals at Disney know it is a goldmine. Knowing that it is a goldmine and that the expenses of selling PDF copies of anything is minimal, Disney could have required a greater licensing fee for the digital prints to an extent that the profitability of acquiring the digital print rights may be less than it would with the printed physical copies.

For example, for the printed copies Disney could take 25% slice of the sale price while for the digital copies Disney may take 50% slice of the reduced sale price due to the ease of selling and "shipping" the digital copies. That 25% slice could mean 20% profit for FFG while the 50% slice could mean much less profit or even a loss.

Then again it's also possible that Disney's licensing fee is a cut of the profit, rather than sales, for digital print media whereas the licensing fee for printed media is a cut of the total sales of the printed product.

But this all conjecture and even asking FFG probably won't get us the answer. I suppose someone could organize a petition or something that shows there is a demand for digital print media forms of FFG's products but that would be no guarantee either.

I don't think that anyone is questioning whether there is money to be made in the distribution of PDFs. The problem really is a matter of proprietary licensing. We speak very broadly of what Disney knows, and what Disney owns, but the problem is a bit more complicated than that. I'll try to illustrate some of the complexities (though please understand that the details are even more complicated).

Disney bought two companies, Lucasfilm Limited (LFL) and LucasArts Entertainment (LA). Waaay back before anyone conceived of a PDF of a game product, there were legal agreements drafted between LFL and LA. The ability to sell an electronic game product is the exclusive right of LA. Unfortunately, pdf copies of the books qualify as set up by the terms of LA's and LFL's agreement. As LightningGirl stated, "ah, so the lawyers don't know the difference between a pdf and a video game," is sort of true about the time that the agreements were made. The intricacies of such laws are so horribly complicated that it boggles the sane mind, and so the fact remains that because of that deal, we have no legal sale of pdfs.

Will the two companies come together and "alter the deal?" Possibly, but I wouldn't hold your breath. When Disney bought the companies, they also purchased all existing contracts between them. So, the agreement still stands between the two companies. Even though there is probably money to be made in selling PDFs, the question is whether there is enough to make it worth the trouble of re-negotiating that agreement between two separate companies (regardless of their origins, relationship, or current parent ownership). There is a bit of a misconception that making Star Wars products is "like printing money." There are several items that have been unprofitable. Even Wizards of the Coast dropped the license because it was too labor intensive and expensive to make the line worth their while. The approval time through LFL took time, and the licensing took money. (As you correctly guessed in your post, the licensing fee is LFL's cut.) It's also one of the reasons why Star Wars products tend to be slightly more expensive than comperable products. The producer has to make money, and they have to give LFL a cut, so the price gets nudged up a bit. So, though the PDFs could probably make money, I doubt that there is enough profit in it (given that RPGs are kind of a niche industry, and Star Wars roleplaying is a niche of a niche industry) to make them re-negotiate a deal that would apply so exclusively to Star Wars rpg pdfs that do not have ramifications on other forms of media.

Usually when I have this conversation, I know that there are a number of people that jump in and say, "That can't possibly be true because I've seen X appear on the internet." (I'm going to be shocked if someone doesn't eventually bring in the dice rolling phone app, and I'll be honest that I can only guess as to how that doesn't qualify as LA's domain). In the past, computer applications have been tightly controlled by the licensee. I'm trying to remember exactly when, but I think it was around 2005, a dedicated user made a stand-alone character generator for the d20 system. It was a nice piece of work, too. However, LFL caught wind of it, and told Wizards of the Coast to enforce their end of the "no computer software" arrangement, and serve the gamer a cease and desist order. Though the lawyers could tell the difference between a character generator and a computer game, the nature of the agreement meant that it didn't matter. WotC hated doing it, but it was what they had to do. (As a result of the entire escapade, the program wasn't even referred to by its title anymore and was only called TPTCBN - The Program That Cannot Be Named.)

For some reason certain Java applications were allowed to continue without intervention, such as apps that would convert d20 stats into D6. And excell sheets that were very well set up were able to do the work of stand alone generator. But even then, the developers at WOTC had come into the boards several times and made mention of the fact that the users were coming close to a fine line. But, since it isn't a stand-alone computer program, and really was just a "fancy character sheet," it fell on the proper side of the law.

In the end, yeah, it would be awesome! FFG would essentially sell me all the same books TWICE. But for now, there's a little less room on my bookshelf and a little more room on my hard drive.

(I'm going to be shocked if someone doesn't eventually bring in the dice rolling phone app, and I'll be honest that I can only guess as to how that doesn't qualify as LA's domain).

Just a shot in the dark....

The license does make for some careful allowances. "Promotional materials" for example are exempt, which is why we see things like LAotH in free downloadable PDF form. It's free, it encourages you to buy both the Core book and the Beginner box, and it can't (really) be used by itself.

Likely they were able to use a similar loophole for the app. It's a dice roller, and that's really all it is. Plus it serves as a roller for several different games, as well as just a plain dice roller.

It's probable that since the roller is sufficiently separate from the game itself (it's really meaningless without the books) they were able to justify it as something other then an electronic game.

Also remember the different companies. FFG wasn't a huge deal until fairly recently when they were bought out by that euro operation. WotC on the other hand had been part of Hasbro for a while. A (relatively) small potatoes operation like FFG simply had nothing (or everything) to lose if LFL decided to go after them. If LFL went after Hasbro on the other hand, they could end up dragging away a lot of money (since they'd be able to go after the company as a whole) AND the whole incident could kick the stock prices in the meevoks to boot.

In the end it seems to have worked out. The roller is nice, Oggdude is a local hero, and all seems to be well.

Honestly that may be one good thing to come from EA getting the electronic gaming license. In WotC's day LA had it, and was struggling, bad. So they were more likely to cause a problem for WotC if just as a way to try and get some of that sweet sweet hasbro money. EA on the other hand is in pretty good shape, so as long as FFG and Oggdude stay in their end of the pool, EA will probably leave them alone so as not to rock the Star Wars boat over something that really is no threat to their business in any way....

Regarding OggDude's program, what probably helps is that you still need the books, since he deliberately leaves out a lot of game text, particularly where talents and equipment (in particular the new teach from source books) are concerned.

As for the "nameless blessing" that bandersnee mentioned, the core problem there was that it included all of the material from the books (including mechanics in many cases) and was based around the d20 system, which had the OGL. This meant a person could grab said program, a free copy of the fundamental d20 rules, and be set to go without WotC seeing a dime.

Although, with LucasArts pretty much being dissolved as a corporate entity, their particularly set of agreements with LFL could have simply defaulted to EA. As was noted, contract law is a confusing SOB even for those with the appropriate legal understanding of how it operates, and is often littered with various loopholes and exceptions, such as FFG being able to offer PDFs of additional Beginner Box characters and adventures for free on their website under the heading of "promotional material," something that WotC had made use of quite often as was confirmed by Rodney Thompson during one of his early guest appearances on the Saga Edition version of the Order 66 podcast.

As has been stated multiple times in the past and doubtless will be stated multiple times in the future, FFG would love to be able to sell PDFs of their Star Wars books, as it would doubtless generate plenty of revenue without having to worry so much about printing costs or shipping delays (case in point, the FaD Beginner Box was "on the boat" for almost two months) as they do for the dead tree versions. But it's simply a case of clearing up the contracts between four or five different companies (FFG, Disney, LFL, LucasArts, and possibly EA as well), which may well be far more hassle and cost in legal staffing than it's worth.

Regarding OggDude's program, what probably helps is that you still need the books, since he deliberately leaves out a lot of game text, particularly where talents and equipment (in particular the new teach from source books) are concerned.

As for the "nameless blessing" that bandersnee mentioned, the core problem there was that it included all of the material from the books (including mechanics in many cases) and was based around the d20 system, which had the OGL. This meant a person could grab said program, a free copy of the fundamental d20 rules, and be set to go without WotC seeing a dime.

I had forgotten that bit of TPTCBN. I imagine that had a bearing on the matter, especially with all of the other programs that have been largely ignored. And, embarrassingly enough I'd forgotten about OggDude's work. I've spent most of my time in my D6 roots lately. (Though I do make a point to keep picking up the FFG books. Lots of good nuggets in them.)

Although, with LucasArts pretty much being dissolved as a corporate entity, their particularly set of agreements with LFL could have simply defaulted to EA. As was noted, contract law is a confusing SOB even for those with the appropriate legal understanding of how it operates,

and is often littered with various loopholes and exceptions, such as FFG being able to offer PDFs of additional Beginner Box characters and adventures for free on their website under the heading of "promotional material," something that WotC had made use of quite often as was confirmed by Rodney Thompson during one of his early guest appearances on the Saga Edition version of the Order 66 podcast.

At my previous company negotiating contracts for getting plastic pallets into warehouses as opposed to wooden pallets to put our product on took six months of painstakingly trading documents for review and conference calls that drug on for hours. It was the most ridiculous rodeo I've ever been privileged to in my life. The minutia regarding phrasing of this clause or that made my eyes and ears ache. The point is that accomplishing something as simple as allowing FFG to tap into the vast PDF market that other gaming companies enjoy seems simple to us gamers but can be made insanely hard by corporate managers asserting their turf and the fact that they exist.

At some point FFG will be allowed to make use of Drivethrurpg or some similar service just as it took forever to get Star Wars films released for digital download. There's layers of legacy corporate bureaucracy that must to worked through based on the contracts the Lucas company inked before Disney took over. Plus the RPG market is like a spec of sand compared to the dollars Disney is interested in for marketing Star Wars so it won't be the most important dot on the radar for a while.

Just my two cents.