I moved this out the Encounter strategy thread so to not clog it...

Big Remy said:

granor said:

I have acutally pulled this encounter. The fact that Nova must swoop to attack makes this very difficult. A crossbow with rapid fire is going to make short work of the dragon and if you swoop down I read that you MUST have a valid place to land. My heroes quickly deduced that because of the dragons slow movement you can actually box it in by having heroes blocking every other space.

To the best of my knowledge, you do not have to land when making an attack while Soaring.

It is my understanding to make a MELEE attack you have to have a valid landing spot. The dragon's attack is MELEE in this encounter. If you do not have to land to attack then it changes a little but I am still not convinced. Fear is only 1 surge at copper IIRC and assuming the party has no dice upgrades or feat that would help seems ideal at best. If you are waiting for your breath attack that cost 8 threat so you get one on turn 2 and one on turn 4 I think you will be dead before turn 4. (5th turn of the heros)

Soar
This ability is only used during outdoor encounters. Any figure with Soar is considered to be flying above the ground, and the range both to and from it is increased by four spaces. A soaring monster cannot normally be the target of a melee attack. However, monsters with Soar can choose to swoop down before attacking. If they do so, the extra range is negated until after the attack goes off, at which point the monster flies back up. Heroes may use interrupt attacks (even melee attacks, if in range) to attack a monster while it is swooping. Note that all monsters with the Flying ability also automatically have the Soar ability.

That bolded part to me indicates and immediate effect. You swoop, attack and then immediately fly back up. Its the only time you can actually hit a monster that is swooping with a melee attack is when in comes in for the attack . It doesn't say anywhere that you have to land to make the attack.

I have always had the understanding that you do not have to land to make an attack while Soaring. Thoughts?

Big Remy said:

Landing and swooping are two different things and not connected. There is no requirement to 'land' when swooping.

Indeed, that would commonly be known as 'crashing'...

I never noticed that until you pointed it out.

It *is* only written that a soaring monster can't be the target of a melee attack while soaring. It mentions nothing that he himself can't initiate such an attack.

That being said, we have always assumed the reverse to be true (he can't target someone with a melee attack either.) In fact the whole concept of swooping is irrelevant if he could melee attack without swooping. I suppose the only reason to swoop/land would be to gain shadow cloak (or some other such benefit). Or to remove the +3 soaring range requirement on his own attack.

It had slipped my mind that soaring critters get fly in outdoor encounters. In this case I agree landing is not required.

However, how can a soaring critter make a melee attack without swooping if they are considered 4 sapces away? Doesn't this range modification work both ways?

No, because when the monster swoops in it negates the extra range. From the Soar description:

However, monsters with Soar can choose to swoop down before attacking. If they do so, the extra range is negated until after the attack goes off, at which point the monster flies back up.

So you basically have to hit it right as its doing the attack from Soaring if its doing a melee attack . If the monster is doing a ranged attack, I think the extra range still applies.

Heh, this brings up something funny. Is it possible with like Lord Hawthorne and some items to gain enough ranks in Reach to hit a Soaring figure with a melee attack?

Big Remy said:

Where in the rules does it say that Rech stacks? I have heard this mentioned on the forum in the past, but couldn't find it myself.

Big Remy said:

Reach doesn't have ranks does it? You either can reach 2 spaces away or can't. I don't think reach was meant to stack. But would be funny if it could.

Big Remy said:

The question was how can a soaring critter make a melee attack WITHOUT swooping.

granor said:

It can't. It has to swoop to do it. When it swoops for a melee attack, the extra range is gone while it makes the attack and is then reinstated. Its why Razorwings are really good in outdoor encounters in my experience.

@Wulfgar61, avianfoo: Reach works differently in RtL versus vanilla Descent

RtL Version of Reach:

Reach
The Reach ability allows a figure to make melee attacks targeting spaces one space further away from it than normal for each rank of Reach it has . As with other melee attacks, rolled range does not affect the attack – it only misses on a miss result. The attacker is required to have a line of sight to the target space.

Vanilla version of Reach:

Reach
The Reach ability allows a figure to make a melee attack targeting both adjacent spaces and spaces at a range of 2. As with a normal melee attack, rolled range has no effect on the attack—it only misses if a miss result is rolled. The attacker is required to have a line of sight to the target space.

In RtL, Reach stacks. In vanilla it doesn't.

Big Remy said:

Glad we are on the same page.

Big Remy said:

Unless RtL adds new ways to acquire Reach, I think the only ways to get it are from a weapon or by being Lord Hawthorne, which would put the max ranks at 2.

Which would actually mean that they added the stacking rule purely for one hero from another expansion, which would be uncharacteristic for them. So, does RtL add more ways to get Reach?

Antistone said:

Can't remember, why I asked.

Nevermind. Had a brainfart.

Antistone said:

Feats from ToI add another way so Reach 3 is possible.

However RtL did not add a way to get reach and yes, that is very uncharacteristic. Well done FFG!

That would have been great if you have pulled a combo that gave you enough Reach to hit a Soaring monster with a Melee attack though.

Ah well.

Big Remy said:

Wouldn't matter. Soaring creatures definitively cannot be attacked by melee attacks unless they swoop. Range is immaterial.

A soaring monster cannot normally be the target of a melee attack . However, monsters with Soar can choose to swoop down before attacking. If they do so, the extra range is negated until after the attack goes off, at which point the monster flies back up. Heroes may use interrupt attacks (even melee attacks, if in range) to attack a monster while it is swooping

Corbon said:

C'mon, don't bring the RAW in to destroy what otherwise is a cool image of Lord Hawthorne smacking a Razorwing out of the sky with a Shillelagh

Big Remy said:

only when Lunging... (and some other effect)

Actually its the Longspear that does that image for me. That or the Walking Stick.

That just made me think, and I pray we never actually have to deal with this: What is the interaction between Leap and Soar?

Big Remy said:

None. Leap is a melee attack. Soaring creatures can't be hit by a melee attack. A Leap-er can't hit a Soar-er (and with Necromancy it is possible to get this interaction already during Lt encounters).
Simple huh?

Corbon said:

Yes, yes it is.

I'm tired.

If it helps your mental image, you could latch onto the fact that it says that soaring figures can't normally be targeted by melee attacks, and decide that means "...because melee attacks don't normally work from 5 spaces away".

If there ever was a way to get Reach 4 and someone actually got FFG to put it into the FAQ, you know there's a 50/50 shot they'd rule it that way, anyway.