A bunch of LoR questions?

By sigmazero13, in Descent: Journeys in the Dark

I love this game, and am having fun in the campaign with my daughter, but I have a few questions about some of the stuff that's come up:

1) When using "Viral Hex", can you take all the tokens gathered from the first part and plop them all on the same target? I don't see anything prohibiting that or saying to spread it out, so I assume you can. If you have a lot of hexed monsters, that could be a decent stack. I don't think there's a problem, just want to make sure I understand.

2) What happens to Hex tokens on a Lieutenant who is defeated in a quest where they are treated like hero figures (IE, are just knocked out and can stand up). I know conditions would go away, but hex tokens aren't necessarily the same as conditions (for example, they can't be removed by cards that remove conditions). Should hex tokens remain, or go away? (I think for the transformation where Ariad goes to Queen Ariad, they'd probably go away since, mechanically, they are new figures, and the rules do clarify that damage goes away in that case, too).

3) In "Secrets in Stone", 2nd encounter:

3a) Do the rolls for the Persistent Curse count as attribute tests? They don't say so, so as-written I'd say no, but they are essentially treated as such (except that "passing" the roll is bad).

3b) The Persistent Curse in "Secrets in Stone" above says the hero is Cursed until the end of his turn. Can this Cursed be removed before then (such as a successful Lore roll, or an ability that removes curses)?

3c) If the hero is already Cursed (such as from a Witcher), does it still make the check? You can't have the same condition twice, but this Cursed is kind of a weird case (since, if nothing else, the duration is different). If you do make the check and fail, and 3b is "no, it can't be removed", could you still remove the 'old' curse? Does it stack as a new curse, or just make the current curse unremovable that turn? Does the 'old curse' go away?

3d) Is Raythen affected by Persistent Curse? (It says "hero turn", and although the heroes control them, and in some cases Allies can be affected by things like heroes, their actions are notably different, in that they can only make one attack).

4) In "Pilgrimage", if you go into the alcove to start getting ready to leave, and while in there the green guardian is deactivated, is there any way to get back in? If not, that could be pretty lame if you get in there, have it broken, and then just have to sit there with nothing to do (especially if it's the last hero). (As written, it seems you're outta luck).

5) In "Fortune and Glory":

5a) The heroes win the first encounter if they escape with all heroes, one with the prisoner. The OL wins if the prisoner is defeated. What would happen if the heroes escape with the prisoner, and, say, all but one hero escapes, but that hero gets swarmed and knocked out, and every time he stands up just gets clobbered again? Stalemate? Or a hero win, because in theory, eventually the monsters would miss just enough to let him escape (even if it took a few days, and the OL had every card in his hand by then).

5b) In the 2nd encounter, do the heroes need to do the locks in any particular order, or can they do them in any order they want (or in parallel, such as having one hero whacking at the red one, and another doing the blue one). I assume there is no order.

5c) For the white token, is it one action per test? Or do you try to do all 3 in one action (until failed)? I assume it's one action per test.

5d) For the white token, does it have to be a single hero passing all 3 tests, or can any combination of heroes do it? (I'm guessing the latter, but wasn't 100% clear).

1) Yes. Each token may be placed on a monster within 3 spaces- there is no requirement to make it a separate monster from the last token. Also, note that "Internal Rot" triggers each time a monster gains hex tokens, not just the first token a monster receives. (That is, if you hex an already hexed monster, internal rot still means it gains 2 tokens, not 1.)

2) I would say that just like Infection tokens, Hex tokens do not get discarded on defeat unless it is a new figure.

3a) No, I don't think so- you are not testing an attribute, you are testing the curse level.

3b) I think the hero can be uncursed (see 3c), but this would be a good question for FFG. It's tough to say whether "cursed until the end of his turn " means "unlike a normal curse, he can't become uncursed until the end of his turn" or "unlike a normal curse, this will go away at the end of his turn."

3c) You cannot be cursed twice. If you are already cursed, it actually looks like failing the check would help you get rid of that curse at the end of your turn. However, this leads to a potential loophole: if you start your turn cursed, you could test for persistent curse, then test for "normal" curse and remove curse even if you failed the persistent curse check. Again, the nature of persistent curse should probably go in an FFG question.

3d) Ally activation notably takes place outside of any hero turn. Unless the quest rules say "hero or ally," they are only referring to actual heroes.

4)I may be missing it, but I do not see any instructions to change the map after the green guardian is destroyed- only that heroes can no longer move off the map through the exit.

5a)The map isn't technically over until the last hero moves off. However, once a hero has carried the prisoner off the exit, the OL cannot win. I would say that if the OL has gotten a threat token from that final hero and either the search tokens are gone/it is clear that the hero won't be searching them, it makes the most sense to just end the map.

5b)There is no order.

5c)One action per test- it says "each time a hero performs the action and passes the test."

5d)I don't see any indication it has to be a single hero.

Edited by Zaltyre

1) Also, note that "Internal Rot" triggers each time a monster gains hex tokens, not just the first token a monster receives. (That is, if you hex an already hexed monster, internal rot still means it gains 2 tokens, not 1.)

Do you have any official statement on that?

The card reads 'Each time a monster becomes hexed , you may place 1 additional token on it.'

Since it says 'becomes hexed', I would think it means: When it wasn't hexed before and due to this hex token it becomes hexed (so it's now a 'hexed monster').

Otherwise why didn't they just write 'Each time a monster receives a(ny amount of) hex token(s), ..." and avoid all the confusion. It's not that much longer (and would have fit on the card).

Edited by Atom4geVampire

1) Also, note that "Internal Rot" triggers each time a monster gains hex tokens, not just the first token a monster receives. (That is, if you hex an already hexed monster, internal rot still means it gains 2 tokens, not 1.)

Do you have any official statement on that?

The card reads 'Each time a monster becomes hexed , you may place 1 additional token on it.'

Since it says 'becomes hexed', I would think it means: When it wasn't hexed before and due to this hex token it becomes hexed (so it's now a 'hexed monster').

Otherwise why didn't they just write 'Each time a monster receives a(ny amount of) hex token(s), ..." and avoid all the confusion. It's not that much longer (and would have fit on the card).

Rule response from Justin. I agree that "becomes hexed" seems to suggest first time, but I think it's still a better choice than "gains a hex token" since that wording would then seem to trigger off of itself (you gain a hex token, so you gain an additional hex token- and you gained that additional hex token, so you gain an additional hex token.) The printed wording, on the other hand (at least to me) says, "in each instance of receiving hex token(s), you receive one more." Probably "receives any amount of hex tokens" could have worked, too.

Note that this makes for a nice combo with "viral hex"- if there are two hexed monsters near you, you can exhaust "viral hex", take two hex tokens from the supply, and put one on each of those two monsters. Then, each of those monsters will gain another hex from internal rot.

Edited by Zaltyre

For Question 5a )

- The hero is considered dead and you must continue on with the campaign without him, but still playing as though there are four heroes. :ph34r:

For Question 5a )

- The hero is considered dead and you must continue on with the campaign without him, but still playing as though there are four heroes. :ph34r:

You know how these stories work. If he didn't die on camera, he'll be back next quest.

Edited by Zaltyre

Thanks, Zaltyre! I'll submit the questions for 3b and the loophole bit of 3c and see what I get back :)

Note that this makes for a nice combo with "viral hex"- if there are two hexed monsters near you, you can exhaust "viral hex", take two hex tokens from the supply, and put one on each of those two monsters. Then, each of those monsters will gain another hex from internal rot.

Well, the first time I read it I did read it like that and thought it would be a nice combo with viral hex. Only after I read the card again I noticed the 'becomes hexed' and assumed it only applied the first time a monster got hexed.

I still think 'receives any amount of hex tokens, he receives an additional one' would be better, because the same logic could apply to the current one then: that he 'becomes hexed' from the additional token.

Edited by Atom4geVampire

I'm not sure that's the right answer, though. From what it sounds like, you place each hex token individually, which would mean that Internal Rot basically doubles the amount of tokens.

So if you have 3 monsters that had hex tokens nearby, and used Viral Hex + Internal Rot, you'd get 3 hex tokens to place; if you dumped all 3 on the same monster, you'd be putting 6 on that monster (not 4), since each one you place triggers Internal Rot.

At least that's how I interpret it! I think it's a necessary boost for the Hexer, since that class is so dependent upon the hex tokens to do much :)

I'll put that in my question to the designers though :)

That would be an interesting question to ask- I wouldn't think that each individual token from "Viral Hex" was a different instance of receiving hex tokens, but that could be a mistake on my part. If it were, you're right, it would add one to each. I was thinking of it as adding 3 +1 once, not 1+1 three times.

Viral hex says "You may place each token...", which to me implies you place them one at a time. But I'll let you know what I hear back :)

Regarding the Viral Hex question, I asked:

1) How do Viral Hex and Internal Rot (Hexer skills) work? The way I read it, when you place the tokens using Viral Hex, you are essentially placing them one at a time, and thus each would trigger Internal Rot. So if you put them all on different monsters, you'd place 2 on each monster, but even if you place them all on the same monsters, you do it one at a time so are essentially placing double the amount on the monster. Is this right?

I got this response:

1) You are correct. Hex tokens are limited by the supply that comes with the expansion, though.

For the Curse questions, I asked:

2) In Secrets in Stone, Encounter 2, Persistent Curse has a few minor bits of confusion. If you get affected by it, it says the hero is Cursed until the end of his turn.

2a) Can this Cursed be removed by normal means, such as the (book) check or skills/items that remove conditions? Or is it unremovable until the end of the turn? (I don't see anything that prevents it from being removed normally, but the "until end of turn" could be interpreted that way).

2b) If the hero is already Cursed (such as from a Witcher), what happens? You can't get the same condition twice. However, part of this may depend on 2a. If 2a's answer is "you cannot remove this curse", does this mean the previous curse is unremovable for that turn now, too? In either case, would the previous curse now go away at the end of the turn? Or would having a previous curse just essentially render the Persistent Curse effect moot for that turn?

And got the following reply:

2a) No, a Cursed condition gained from Persistent Curse cannot be discarded by any means until the end of that hero’s turn. Until the end of turn does, indeed, refer to the fact that heroes cannot get rid of their persistent curse in any way until that point.
2b) If a hero is already Cursed, that Cursed is now Persistent (the hero does not gain a new Cursed condition, that hero’s current Cursed condition is instead modified), and cannot be removed by any means until the end of that hero’s turn.
In neither 2a or 2b is Cursed discarded at the end of turn. It simply cannot be discarded by any means until the end of turn. After that point, the hero is still Cursed, but is now able to discard it through normal means.

I like it. Persistent curse is really persistent.

When I played Fortune and Glory, the same situation occured. I had the prisoner off the map, but the other heroes were in a situation where, they were going to get KOed every round. As the OL, I never saw a point to just end that situation until I had the whole OL deck in hand. I gave one of the heroes a standup action and the two others a revive action and the last search token, then began Encounter 2. ( Basically how it would have eventually played out.)

It's quite unfair however going into Encounter 2 as the OL can use just about any card. My heroes were half dead before the first round was even over. The first encounter really should end as soon as the prisoner leaves the map.