Kavil is attacking a target with a blaster turret. Closest point to target is out of arc. However part of target is in arc. Does his ability kick in?

Same as above but the part of target that is in arc is out of range of blaster turret. Does Kavil's ability kick in?

I think no to first and yes to second, as this seems closest to the "spirit" of the card.

Thoughts?

Kavil is attacking a target with a blaster turret. Closest point to target is out of arc. However part of target is in arc. Does his ability kick in?

Same as above but the part of target that is in arc is out of range of blaster turret. Does Kavil's ability kick in?

I think no to first and yes to second, as this seems closest to the "spirit" of the card.

Thoughts?

The Autothrusters ruling means that, even though you're shooting at a point that's out of arc, the ship in question is still "in arc".

Similarly, even though the point that is in-arc is at Range 3, you can still shoot at a point that's out-of-arc at Range 2 with a turret.

In that particular case, Autothrusters doesn't trigger. But part-the-first answers your question

Your firing arc is your firing arc no matter what. With a turret, your firing arc doesnt change, you can just attack outside it. That should get to the answers .

Well autothursters is a bit nebulously worded in the faq clarification:

I also find this ruling highly counter-intuitive as range to target is usually measured IN arc. I think this was specifically for ATs to make them just a tiny bit less powerful. As such, I would argue it really dosn't apply to Kavil in any case. And then what if I was using cluster missiles? It's in range out of arc and out of range in arc. You'd say then no shot. This is essentially the inverse of that situation. And as such, at least in example two I'd argue kavil's ability triggers.

Well autothursters is a bit nebulously worded in the faq clarification:

utothrusters

Autothrusters does NOT trigger if the ship equipped with Autothrusters is inside the attacker’s primary or auxiliary firing arc at Range 1–2. If a ship with a turret weapon attacks a ship equipped with Autothrusters, first measure closest point to closest point to determine range, then use the printed firing arc on the attacker to determine whether the defender is in the attacker’s firing arc.

I also find this ruling highly counter-intuitive as range to target is usually measured IN arc. I think this was specifically for ATs to make them just a tiny bit less powerful. As such, I would argue it really dosn't apply to Kavil in any case. And then what if I was using cluster missiles? It's in range out of arc and out of range in arc. You'd say then no shot. This is essentially the inverse of that situation. And as such, at least in example two I'd argue kavil's ability triggers.

All that bit says is that checking for arc and checking for range are two separate and independent things. It just says it in a very convoluted manner. This affects more than just Autothrusters, it would apply to cards like Tactician as well. With Tactician on a turreted ship the target could be at range 3 if you measured in-arc but range two when you measured closest point-to-closest point, Tactician would activate because you are taking a range two shot at the target and the target is in arc (even though it is at range 3 in the arc).

Kavil's ability wouldn't trigger in either of those examples given in the OP. Kavil's ability doesn't care if the shot is being made out of arc, it cares about whether or not the target is out of arc.

Well autothursters is a bit nebulously worded in the faq clarification:

utothrusters

Autothrusters does NOT trigger if the ship equipped with Autothrusters is inside the attacker’s primary or auxiliary firing arc at Range 1–2. If a ship with a turret weapon attacks a ship equipped with Autothrusters, first measure closest point to closest point to determine range, then use the printed firing arc on the attacker to determine whether the defender is in the attacker’s firing arc.

I also find this ruling highly counter-intuitive as range to target is usually measured IN arc. I think this was specifically for ATs to make them just a tiny bit less powerful. As such, I would argue it really dosn't apply to Kavil in any case. And then what if I was using cluster missiles? It's in range out of arc and out of range in arc. You'd say then no shot. This is essentially the inverse of that situation. And as such, at least in example two I'd argue kavil's ability triggers.

This was not just for Autothrusters, similar wording has come up before in rulings for how things like Tactician work with a Turret Primary ship. Range measurements are always done to the closest point the weapon you're using can target(either in-arc for regular primaries and secondaries, or anywhere with turrets). In Arc checks are always exactly what they say. The two are independent of each other.

Autothrusters has two possible trigger conditions; Being at range 3 or being outside arc. Pick your weapon. Is the Autothrusters ship at range 3 of you? If so, ATs triggers. If not, is any part of the ship inside your firing arc? If not, ATs trigger, if any part is, they don't.

Kavil goes the same way. Is any part of the enemy ship inside his printed firing arc? Then his ability doesn't trigger, regardless of whether the closest point falls inside his arc or not, because "In arc" and "range" are separate things.

Kavil is attacking a target with a blaster turret. Closest point to target is out of arc. However part of target is in arc. Does his ability kick in?

No it does not. For turret weapons range and arc are completely separate subjects. A part of the target is inside the firing arc. Therefore the attack is inside the firing arc.

Same as above but the part of target that is in arc is out of range of blaster turret. Does Kavil's ability kick in?

Same answer as above. A part of the target is inside the firing arc. Therefore the attack is inside the firing arc.

Rulebook page 10:

Firing Arc

At the front of each ship token is a wedge shape (green for Imperials, red for Rebels). This area shows the angle from which the ship’s weapons can fire. An enemy ship is inside the active ship’s firing arc if any part of the enemy ship’s base falls inside the angle defined by the wedge shape (see “Firing Arc and Range Example” on page 11).

See dvor's post

According to this ruling from Frank Brooks, https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/109927-tactical-falcon-question/?p=1161884

I would think the wording is the most important thing to look at.

When attack you measure closest point to closest point. The attack is used to check to see if it is in arc or not. Tactician at range 2 closet point but in arc at range 3 DOES NOT trigger. Kavil attacking from his closest point the corner but the ship is in his arc further back should trigger assuming the rulings remain consistent.

When defending it ask for two specification. You have to measure both. That is why you measure closest point AND in arc.

According to this ruling from Frank Brooks, https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/109927-tactical-falcon-question/?p=1161884

That is outdated. Frank reversed it. The current FAQ reflects that.

I'm not 100% sure that answers the second situation. Is your firing arc infinite, or is it limited to range 3? If firing arcs aren't range limited then you could be on opposite corners of the board behind a pile of asteroids and still in arc. If firing arc is limited to where you can actually fire then option 2 would trigger.

Has the range of firing arcs been discussed/defined elsewhere and I missed it?

I'm not 100% sure that answers the second situation. Is your firing arc infinite, or is it limited to range 3? If firing arcs aren't range limited then you could be on opposite corners of the board behind a pile of asteroids and still in arc. If firing arc is limited to where you can actually fire then option 2 would trigger.

Has the range of firing arcs been discussed/defined elsewhere and I missed it?

Firing Arc matters to Range 5 in Epic

Etahn A'baht specifices both In Arc and Range 1-3

Clearly, the arc itself is infinite.

I disagree that either of those are a clearly. Etahn's ability states inside arc at range 1-3 not and 1-3, there isn't really a separation there. And sure, it's range 5 for epic ships, but that's my fault for not being clearer in what I meant. Does the firing arc extend beyond the maximum range of a any given ship?

I'm saying whether it does or doesn't, just wondering if there is a difinitive answer rather than random guesses about rules interpretations. And, I don't want to steal a thread so I'll post a new one with this.

Firing arc is simply defined by the wedge at the front (and auxiliary printed arcs)

There is no range restriction. If an ability refers to being in arc it will reach to the edge of the table. Such abilities usually also comes with a Range restriction.

Stephen, do you happen to have a source for your statement?

Firing arc is simply defined by the wedge at the front (and auxiliary printed arcs)

Stephen, do you happen to have a source for your statement?

That was already posted in this thread:

Rulebook page 10:

Firing Arc

At the front of each ship token is a wedge shape (green for Imperials, red for Rebels). This area shows the angle from which the ship’s weapons can fire. An enemy ship is inside the active ship’s firing arc if any part of the enemy ship’s base falls inside the angle defined by the wedge shape (see “Firing Arc and Range Example” on page 11).

If required, someone might add a definition of "angle". I won't.

One thing that confused me at first regarding arc and range, was thinking that a ship could be (or was) in two ranges at the same time by virtue of being midway between the two - with part of the ship at range X, and the other part at range X+1. But as we know, that is just bunk.

When I got that, I stopped thinking, "but the part of the ship that is within arc is at range X+1, and my weapon only reaches to range X" - and realized that the whole ship was in range X, even if the part that my arc overlaps is at range X+1.

One thing that confused me at first regarding arc and range, was thinking that a ship could be (or was) in two ranges at the same time by virtue of being midway between the two - with part of the ship at range X, and the other part at range X+1. But as we know, that is just bunk.

When I got that, I stopped thinking, "but the part of the ship that is within arc is at range X+1, and my weapon only reaches to range X" - and realized that the whole ship was in range X, even if the part that my arc overlaps is at range X+1.

Unless the weapon allows firing outside your arc, range is still measured inside of the firing arc, so if your weapon with range X does not allow fire outside your firing arc, in that scenario you cannot use it against the target that's at range X+1 inside your arc. For example, if the weapon is Autoblasters and X=1, range is measured inside your firing arc since they don't allow you to fire outside your arc, so the ship is at Range 2 and inside your Firing Arc, and you can't use Autoblasters. However, if the weapon in question is Autoblaster Turret and everything else is the same, since it can fire outside your arc, the range measurement is done just to the closest point, so it is Range 1 and, as it happens, inside your Firing Arc, and the Autoblaster Turret can be used.

Range measurement is dependent on whether your weapon allows firing outside your arc. Arc check is always just whether any part of the target falls inside your printed firing arc.

Unless the weapon allows firing outside your arc, range is still measured inside of the firing arc, so if your weapon with range X does not allow fire outside your firing arc, in that scenario you cannot use it against the target that's at range X+1 inside your arc. For example, if the weapon is Autoblasters and X=1, range is measured inside your firing arc since they don't allow you to fire outside your arc, so the ship is at Range 2 and inside your Firing Arc, and you can't use Autoblasters. However, if the weapon in question is Autoblaster Turret and everything else is the same, since it can fire outside your arc, the range measurement is done just to the closest point, so it is Range 1 and, as it happens, inside your Firing Arc, and the Autoblaster Turret can be used.

Range measurement is dependent on whether your weapon allows firing outside your arc. Arc check is always just whether any part of the target falls inside your printed firing arc.

I stand corrected. I just re-read the rules and noticed/understood for the first time:

To measure range, place the Range 1 end of the range ruler so that it touches the closest part of the attacker’s base. Then point the ruler toward the closest part

of the target ship’s base that is inside the attacker’s firing arc. The lowest section (1, 2, or 3) of the ruler that overlaps the target ship’s base is considered the range between the ships.

I don't know how I've missed that for so long, but there it is. I honestly thought that range was measured as the shortest distance between the two bases without regard to the attacker's arc.

Humbling, but very appreciated.

I honestly thought that range was measured as the shortest distance between the two bases without regard to the attacker's arc.

If the weapon can attack outside the firing arc, it is.

Only the "normal" (i.e. inside the arc only) weapons measure range inside the firing arc.