Sorry I skipped reading all three pages leading up I just thought I'd just chime in. I think there's some merit to the idea that dual IG's are pushing the meta to turrets in a similar way the phantom did. I know I'd feel more comfortable not running a turret in a tourney without dual IG's lurking around. As far as I know there aren't many list archetypes outside of turrets that can stand up to fat builds and dual IG's at the same time. What generally does well against two IG's does not fair well against turrets and vice versa? Duals IG's have everything fat ships have except the 360 arc, thank goodness. They are a large ship with a boost, gunner ability(because who isn't running IG-88 B?), damage mitigation through autothrusters and evades, plus s-loops. I think IG's could have been 4 or more points cheaper without the boost action and still been a competitive ship. Forcing engine upgrade as a modification and taking autothrusters off the table. Its terribly difficult to knock one of these ships off the board quickly without 1 of 2 things, 4+ attack dice or turrets. I've played a lot of games with good players who fly the IG's very well and its so hard to keep those buggers in arc, hence turrets, we all know green dice will fail eventually, autothrusters be damned (It's what gunner/Luke is for). This is just my theory however. I strongly feel the more maneuverable FFG makes ships the more turrets become "the safe bet".

FFG nerfed phantoms but gave us IG's. Incidentally I have cause to wonder if the phantom people have shied from recently is a good counter to the IG's with the ability to pre-block, move afterwards and shoot with 4-5 native red dice. The phantom did not get nerfed 'ability-wise', it got nerfed 'player-wise'. I'll probably be loved/hated (more of the latter I'm sure) for saying this but the FAQ separated the truly skilled from the skill-less, the players that have the presence of mind to anticipate and read their opponent from the ones that cannot. Yet, everyone still have to deal with a different kind of predator out there and not many people feel confident without a big FAT security blanket. Myself included. I MUST HAVE ALL THE FFG BLING! HEIL FFG!

I think you've got it backwards. I think IG's are doing so well precisely because they feed on turrets.

Agree to disagree. Were it the case why do we repeatedly see Fat Hans, Dash Rendars, and Chirpy Fel squads taking the podium more often than not. The statistics do not support your opinion. Take Han for example. He loves 2 ship builds. Less ships means less shots means more 3PO advantage. Han can afford to even bump one ship, strip tokens from another like a focus and still activate 3PO on the one ship that can shoot him.IG's biggest weakness is their arc. Fat Han is excellent at ignoring arcs, even more so is PTL Dash. Ever seen what Mara Jade/Rebel Captive on a decimator does to a couple aggressors? I'm afraid IG's do not "feast" on turrets. They feast on ships that they can outmaneuver and destroy in a turn or two, B-Wings, Y-Wings, Tie-Fighters, Z95, etc. primary turrets can't really be outmaneuvered in the sense that if you can shoot them they can shoot you too. In fact I would suggest a ship such as the YT-1300/2400 can favorably outmaneuver an aggressor solely on the merit of the arc vs arc advantage the turret ship possesses. It just requires patience and time to wear down dual aggressors and time is always on the side of the fat turret. Eventually one will die and when that happens a Dual IG list becomes dramatically ineffective. It's not turrets keeping swarm lists at bay, swarms are naturally a good match-up for fatties. The arrival of the phantom hurt the swarm turnout. Now that the phantom less spooky there has to be another shark in the water keeping people from swarming the star fields. Dual predator IG's rip these guys a new one. With the new tournament rules the elimination round cutoffs are cut-throat. You can win all games but 1 and still miss the cut due to MoV. All the more reason to avoid swarms at the chance of pairing a popular IG 2000 build. Turrets are safe and they still beat aggressors more often than not. If anyone is doing the majority of feasting, it's turrets, autothrusters be damned. Results are results.

Hmm it's almost like i've been saying for month's now turret use isn't linked to phantoms...

Turrets are not that hard to use i know people would love to believe they are but it takes far more effort to fly three small based ships than it does a turret.

Somethings got to give sooner or later, people wont willingly lose the crutch and walk on their own so ffg needs to take it away with some tough love.

It's a dogfighting game where no one in tournaments dogfights.

qft

Kiting does not equal dogfighting.

oh it does, but only within reason

a Firespray can do it really well (esp with bombs), but it can't do it infinitely well

Imo, this game is at it's best when it's heavily emphasizing positioning. PWTs kind of remove that from anyone playing against them, because you lose the ability to plan around their lines of fire (because you can't dodge them). Sure, the turret player gets to enjoy playing around you, but it is a two-player game

I think it is safe to say that everyone who plays this game would be happy if FFG never adds another turret to the game. Dash was a horrible addition to the game in my opinion. Not only did they add a turret they added a ship that ignores a primary rule of the game.

I want to like this because I do agree this game doesn't need anymore (or any, given its horrible implementation) primary weapon turrets, but I actually think Dash is great because he pays for his ability to ignore rules. Sure we say that Fat han and cheri pay in points (dat mov advantage) but he pays in other restrictions (doughnut hole) and pretty crummy defenses that force him to use his unique advantages to the best of his abilities.

the 2-dice primary wep turrets (yt-2400 and k-wing) are perfect in my book, because they use a horrible rule but de-emphasize it to the point where it's just an add-on. An hlc title-less YT-2400 will still shoot you if you arc-dodge, but it's losing a lot on the turn it can't cannon you. Similarly, the K-wing is horribly points in-efficient and will stress positioning for bombs and ordinance

Well this thread has exploded with replies faster than I can read.

Things that should be banned:

Fat ships of all kinds

Brobots

4 Y lists

B Wings

Phantoms

Any lists that win more than one regional

Any ship that performs well and is popular

Whining about the turret meta

Complaining about large ships that win because they don't fit your preconceived notions of how the game should be played (ITS A DAWGFIGHTIN' GAAAYME)

It's a Star Wars Miniatures Game.

Turrets are Star Wars. If you want to play a pure dog-fighting game, go play Wings of War, or load up your copy of X-Wing versus TIE Fighter then email Lucasarts for a turret nerf when a Lancer frigate starts shooting at you.

No ones moaning about fat shuttles or fat firesprays

I've never seen anyone demand brobots be removed

No ones complaining about 4 Y lists

Phantoms were an issue only an idiot would think other wise and it's been altered as a result

Your strawman is poorly constructed all the stuffing's fallen out and the stitching is frankly shocking try again.

I'm not quoting it because the quote would be massive and I'm on mobile - but to the guy that said they fly Han "competitively" hah Hahahah hahah heh hehehe

No.

You just fly Han, nothing competitive about it. A modified FREIGHTER that is just as fast as an A-Wing with increased durability and firepower. Also justifying turrets by "hey I would be fine with giving them an extra green die to blank on" further defines you as scum.

Have a nice day

Yeah, cause obviously there's no wrong way to fly Han, right?

Either your sarcasm is failing to come across properly, or you need a timeout.

Maybe he's hungry? Someone give him a Snickers

I think it is safe to say that everyone who plays this game would be happy if FFG never adds another turret to the game. Dash was a horrible addition to the game in my opinion. Not only did they add a turret they added a ship that ignores a primary rule of the game.

I think it's the other way around - wave 5 brought decimator that's the most overused mainstream annoying ship at the moment. Comparing dash, falcon and decimator, dash is the most skill-demanding ship to fly depending on which cannon you pick

Still can't quote directly - I believe you would have to be mentally deficient to not be able to fly your turret in a circle around the board shooting 360 degrees with no penalty. So yes, you would have to try REALLY hard to fly Han/any turret for that matter (HLC outrider is an exception) poorly.

I think it is safe to say that everyone who plays this game would be happy if FFG never adds another turret to the game. Dash was a horrible addition to the game in my opinion. Not only did they add a turret they added a ship that ignores a primary rule of the game.

I think it's the other way around - wave 5 brought decimator that's the most overused mainstream annoying ship at the moment. Comparing dash, falcon and decimator, dash is the most skill-demanding ship to fly depending on which cannon you pick

True, Dash does take more skill than the other ones, but that's like saying he's the skinniest sumo wrestler.

It does take skill to fly a fat turret, but not as much as not flying one. I think it takes more skill to beat a fat turret without taking a turret than it does to beat a non-fat turret with a fat turret.

I firmly believe one would have to be mentally deficient to not be able to fly laps around the table shooting 360 degrees with no penalty

If you had kept reading after scoffing at "I fly Han competitively," you might have noticed that VaynMaanen agrees that adding a penalty for turret primaries would be a reasonable change.

I think it is safe to say that everyone who plays this game would be happy if FFG never adds another turret to the game. Dash was a horrible addition to the game in my opinion. Not only did they add a turret they added a ship that ignores a primary rule of the game.

I think it's the other way around - wave 5 brought decimator that's the most overused mainstream annoying ship at the moment. Comparing dash, falcon and decimator, dash is the most skill-demanding ship to fly depending on which cannon you pick

agreed

even with the 360 range 1-3 mango, the cannon's horrible efficiency and lack of range 1 bonus + the yt-2400's single crew slot and lack of evade means you can't just barrel through enemies like the other fatties (you have to barrel roll )

I think it is safe to say that everyone who plays this game would be happy if FFG never adds another turret to the game. Dash was a horrible addition to the game in my opinion. Not only did they add a turret they added a ship that ignores a primary rule of the game.

I think it's the other way around - wave 5 brought decimator that's the most overused mainstream annoying ship at the moment. Comparing dash, falcon and decimator, dash is the most skill-demanding ship to fly depending on which cannon you pick

True, Dash does take more skill than the other ones, but that's like saying he's the skinniest sumo wrestler.

It does take skill to fly a fat turret, but not as much as not flying one. I think it takes more skill to beat a fat turret without taking a turret than it does to beat a non-fat turret with a fat turret.

Disagreed about Dash here. While intimidating, he's about as durable as a rec-spec firespray. He's not like Han, who's literally invincible if you got nothing but an A-wing left over. While 2 greens with focus can be hard to crack, they are not guaranteed damage reductions by any means necessary. Similarly, the range one blindspot is huge (literally infinitely more blindspots than PWTs) which combined with no guaranteed defenses places heavy emphasis on Dash's positioning.

@Pandademic if you read my original reply you would see that I already addressed his solution, an extra chance to evade is not a concrete solution.

Still can't quote directly - I believe you would have to be mentally deficient to not be able to fly your turret in a circle around the board shooting 360 degrees with no penalty. So yes, you would have to try REALLY hard to fly Han/any turret for that matter (HLC outrider is an exception) poorly.

Fly like that and you'll lose quickly to any and every competent player.

Yes, it takes skill to fly a turret well (and win), but not as much skill as someone who doesn't take a fat turret and wins, especially against a fat turret.

This no quoting issue is really starting to irritate me, anyway, addressing the "Han isn't OP claim"

Anything in competitive gaming with a <50% win rate is considered strong in the current meta, obviously. Anything with a <60% win rate is overpowered. Where do I get my numbers? I used a 60 million player sample known as League of Legends. Anything with a <60% win rate gets toned down within a week or so.

Now I realize changes that quickly are impossible with a tabletop game, however it is impossible to look at results from regionals across the world, and seeing that most top 8s are made up of at least 5-6 turrets, and still argue that turrets are balanced. To even make the cut you need to go 5-0 or 4-1 with a good MoV (another thing turret lists are excellent at securing) Turrets are winning more than 60% of their games, and it is not due to superior pilot skill. A 360 degree fire arc takes away one of the key concepts of the game - arc dodging. The turret player still gets to play around your arc, but you can't dodge his if you want to return fire.

Hmm it's almost like i've been saying for month's now turret use isn't linked to phantoms...

Turrets are not that hard to use i know people would love to believe they are but it takes far more effort to fly three small based ships than it does a turret.

Somethings got to give sooner or later, people wont willingly lose the crutch and walk on their own so ffg needs to take it away with some tough love.

It's a dogfighting game where no one in tournaments dogfights.

They're desperate to not lose their crutch - couldn't have said it better myself. Another +1 for hobo

It's a dogfighting game where no one in tournaments dogfights.

And yet, a lot of games I've observed with turrets involved maneuvering. Was it to get ships into arc, no. But that doesn't change the fact that they still had to maneuver. And hugging the edge is hardly an issue that only concerns turret primaries. I do remember some games where the players just went up and down the sides for a while before engaging.

And I really am getting tired of the moving of the goal posts to keep arguements valid. The meta is shifting, as Falcon hunters no longer are eating alive by Phantoms. Yes, the Phantom was why the Falcon rose up. It was a combo effect of Falcons being the easy way to fight Phantoms and Phantoms eating up Falcon's natural predators.

ironically, hugging the sides is actually a good way to counter large-base maneuverability

large ships don't like getting too close to the most dangerous obstacle in the game

Maneuvering is involved in every single game, I'm not sure why avoiding asteroids is ground breaking when fat ships do it.

Sure I can hug the edges with small ships and keep you at arms reach, but green dice will be green dice and a bigger HP pool will always statistically out-trade a starfighter with 3 agility and average evade rolls.

@Pandademic if you read my original reply you would see that I already addressed his solution, an extra chance to evade is not a concrete solution.

Removing the primary weapon bonus outside of arc at R1 would be a good option also. Kind of like ships have done with Dash to stay in his "donut of doom" Soontir and Co. can then flank a turret at R1. Without repercussions.

Coupled with autothrusters, limiting the range 1 bonus to the turret's primary arc I believe would be a viable balancing option.

ironically, hugging the sides is actually a good way to counter large-base maneuverability

large ships don't like getting too close to the most dangerous obstacle in the game

The next rebel ship will get to ignore the edge of the map like dash ignores obstacles

ironically, hugging the sides is actually a good way to counter large-base maneuverability

large ships don't like getting too close to the most dangerous obstacle in the game

The next rebel ship will get to ignore the edge of the map like dash ignores obstacles

if any games are occurring on the mat next to yours, you can fly onto it and help your favorite player out

Removing the primary weapon bonus outside of arc at R1 would be a good option also. Kind of like ships have done with Dash to stay in his "donut of doom" Soontir and Co. can then flank a turret at R1. Without repercussions.

I like it too. It's simple, elegant, and applies to any ship facing a primary turret, not just the dedicated arc-dodgers. And best of all, it's actually somewhat plausible for FFG to implement it - they did change how range bonuses work in Epic, after all.

It's a dogfighting game where no one in tournaments dogfights.

And yet, a lot of games I've observed with turrets involved maneuvering. Was it to get ships into arc, no. But that doesn't change the fact that they still had to maneuver. And hugging the edge is hardly an issue that only concerns turret primaries. I do remember some games where the players just went up and down the sides for a while before engaging.

And I really am getting tired of the moving of the goal posts to keep arguements valid. The meta is shifting, as Falcon hunters no longer are eating alive by Phantoms. Yes, the Phantom was why the Falcon rose up. It was a combo effect of Falcons being the easy way to fight Phantoms and Phantoms eating up Falcon's natural predators.

I don't think this is as complex as everyone acts like it is.

Forward arc ships - must maneuver to place ships in arc, must maneuver to have ships in range, must maneuver to avoid opposing arcs, and must have good positioning for following rounds.

Turret ships - must maneuver to have ships in range, must maneuver to avoid opposing arcs and have good positioning for following rounds.

It is as plain as day that one has only 3 of the 4 requirements that the other does, and since the fourth requirement is not trivial, it is impossible for them to be equally difficult. Turrets are easier to fly, simple as that. (especially given that the large based turrets we have include some of the better dials in the game.)

And the reason the "goalpost" has changed is because SOME thought Phantoms killing Swarms was the reason for the rise of the turrets. Since the nerf to the phantom has not resulted in a significant shift and turrets remain dominant, the hypothesis that "Phantoms > Swarms, therefore turrets" was clearly false. And yet, for "some reason", turrets do remain dominant, and therefore there must be a hypothesis that explains it. Hence, people still postulate on the reason why.

It really depends on what kind of blocking game the opponent is running.