Stilgod you are a genius. A simple four-word errata could potentially swing the meta away from YT-1300s and Decimators to other ships. HWK-290s and Y-Wings would of course not be affected, because secondary weapons.

Range Combat Bonuses

Depending on the range between the ships, the

attacker or defender may roll additional dice during this

attack (see “Roll Attack Dice” and “Roll Defense Dice”

on pages 11–12). Range combat bonuses only occur

when a ship is attacking within its firing arc with its primary weapon.

So a falcon can throw 3 shots at me at range 3 but if I'm out of his primary arc I don't get the bonus evade die for range 3? No thanks.

Outrider mangler and hlc are MASSIVELY different

I wouldn't say MASSIVELY. I mean, the HLC Outrider wants to stay far away and blast you from a distance. They will try to bait with the other ship(s) and just try to tail you and kill you. What does a Mangler Outrider do? Well, it doesn't have to worry about staying as far away, but it will try to dodge your arcs. It will still basically arc dodge you and be happy to stay at R3 to fire at you. Not as scared as getting close, but still will be happy to bait, and evade. Is that massively different? If so, then maybe you don't face enough other list types to recognize.

I do expect to face 5 out of 6 matches to be either Soontir + Deci, two YT's, YT + support ships, or Bro Bots.

I would encourage you to attend a Regional and challenge this assumption for yourself.

You just want me to go to Raleigh Regionals!

Stilgod you are a genius. A simple four-word errata could potentially swing the meta away from YT-1300s and Decimators to other ships. HWK-290s and Y-Wings would of course not be affected, because secondary weapons.

Range Combat Bonuses

Depending on the range between the ships, the

attacker or defender may roll additional dice during this

attack (see “Roll Attack Dice” and “Roll Defense Dice”

on pages 11–12). Range combat bonuses only occur

when a ship is attacking within its firing arc with its primary weapon.

Lol if ya want to fly crazy different lists lose your first 2 matches.

I think changing the text on page 11 - Roll Attack Dice would be better. The above obviously makes a niche case where it is better for a turreted ship to attack a target who is at range 3 outside the turreted ship's firing arc.

The attacker resolves any card abilities that

allow him to roll additional (or fewer) dice.

Also, if he is targeting a ship at Range 1 with

his primary weapon within its firing arc, he rolls 1 additional

attack die.

Imo to be really honest, I see Brobots as an extension of the big fat large ships with gunner capacity, boost and large amounts of damage mitigation. I don't like them any more than any of the fat turrets on the field.

The current swarm IS BBBBZ. Its a meta dependent thing. Tie Swarm isn't the only swarm. BBBBZ concentrates fire better in this meta. The Brobots 3green dice is actually really tough to chew through with just ties.

Honestly, I don't really know whats fun about playing a tournament where you face 6 fat turret lists in a row. Do you find that fun?

People start adding brobots into the things they dislike when they started winning. If you add 4-5 more list archetypes to the winner's circle people will hate those as well.

I can't say I agree with the last statement, the TIE swarm has done well since the game released and can win if well flown. However it doesn't get hate - why? Because it is a skill cap list. Just like Ace arc dodger lists that stomp at store level when well flown. I can beat average skill players with 3 interceptors because I can outfly them. However when you give an easy to fly ship like a turret with insane damage mitigation to a player of equal skill of myself it becomes a hated list since it is a borderline win condition when you plunk your turret down on the table.

Skillcap lists that win will be respected, not hated. Turrets are not skill based lists-that is why they are hated.

There are a couple turrets that are pretty easy to fly. Most of them aren't though and the ace they fly with is far from a starter ship.

haven't read the whole thread, but I'll pipe in with my suggestion "fix" to turrets: make them range 1-2 only. you want to shoot at a guy at r3, you have to point your nose at him, just like the rest of us.

never gonna happen though :-(

Pre-Twin Laser Turret, this actually occurred to me as well (before TLT all Turret upgrades maxed out at Range 2). I started a thread hypothetically asking what others thought the state of the game would be if this was the case. It didn't last long, because all anyone wanted to do was scream "The game isn't broken, stop trying to fix it!" despite me specifically asking for the discussion not to be about that.

And now, here we are.

I do think something needs to be done. While there are a few non-fat turret lists or bro bots winning, they are all outside the US. I always heard that US gamers tend to be more power gamer, but I think this kind of explains that. Having a few lists win to me is not proof that the meta is changing. It's proof that the meta is stale. While some are cheering for the quarter of winners not being fat turrets or bro bots, I lament the other 75%. Power lists and unbalanced game design is what drove me away from WHFB. It has the potential to do the same with X-wing.

I've been using "Prince and the New Power Generation", which is Xizor and 5 x Z-95's. I've found it works good vs. YT's, but I don't have a lot of experience with Deci-Soontir builds. I am also having trouble with bro bots, but I think I just need more practice.

Part of beating the YT's is knowing how they play. For one, they try to draw you through the asteroid field to break you up. Don't be suckered in. They will run out of space eventually. Yes, it does mean that you kill time which makes it harder to win. Next, the Falcon will always present itself as a target for a turn, but then zip off to the side and boost to get out of your way. That's when the Outrider usually starts blasting you from the other flank. So, the trick is to try to prevent the Falcon from running away. If you can stuff a Z-95 right where you expect the YT to go, you can block it. Once it's blocked and without actions, it tends to die fast. Of course, you have to have the ships in the right spot to pull this off and guess which direction they are going to go. You can't always do it, but just expect it and expect what the Falcon is going to do. He wants to boost out of your arc and let you chase him while he kills you. Don't fall for it.

Now, the Deci-Soontir build is harder. I'm taking a Flechette Torp. to try to double stress Soontir, but I haven't had a lot of games against him yet. Thankfully, my local gamers don't buy into the meta and play just to have fun. It does make it difficult to get good practice games in, though.

I have heard of people spreading out vs. Bro Bots and blocking the S-loop as a way to corner them. With 3 agility, though, they could just roll well and defeat your best laid plans. Z's have a hard time to get through that damage. I'm need more practice.

Someone suggested to me that I try 2 Y-wings with Autoblasters as their friend does well with it. I'd hate to lose the blockers with that, but I have looked at dropping 2 Z-95's for 1 auto-blaster Y-wing. I could even then bump the 3 remaining Z's to PS 3 build and avoid Predator. I have a couple of weeks before my Regionals.

I have to admit that I'm tempted to just not go to Regionals. Facing the same lists over and over again is pretty boring. Do I really want to spend the time, money, and marital bliss to do it? I like the game, but facing these "uber" lists is just repetitive. I feel like I could probably have more fun just hanging out with my friends.

what is the remainder of your list? 2 z-95 and Y with autoblaster and....?

i usually play with bobba and you?

So far, I've run this:

Xizor w/ title, FCS, VI, AutoThrusters, Inertial Dampeners, and Flachette Torps

5 x Binayre Pirates

The one that I might give a try is:

Xizor w/ title, FCS, VI, AutoThrusters, Inertial Dampeners, and Flachette Torps

Thug w/ Autoblaster turret

3 x Black Sun Z's

If I play vs. YT's, I can usually kill one YT before I lose all the Z's. If I can get Xizor behind the last YT, it is usually a win for me.

I know this might sound crazy, and I brought it up when having a discussion about how to nerf turrets/large base ships before almost as a joke, but after thinking about it I thought it actually could work.

Why not nerf engine upgrade on those ships the same way barrel roll is nerfed? You put the 1 Template down sideways in front of the ship and only move it that length. It would be much more difficult to skim in and out of ships arcs if it wasn't moving as far. And since they are "big" and not as agile, they only get that option and no bank options.

Not sure if it would work, but just a thought.

Imo to be really honest, I see Brobots as an extension of the big fat large ships with gunner capacity, boost and large amounts of damage mitigation. I don't like them any more than any of the fat turrets on the field.

The current swarm IS BBBBZ. Its a meta dependent thing. Tie Swarm isn't the only swarm. BBBBZ concentrates fire better in this meta. The Brobots 3green dice is actually really tough to chew through with just ties.

Honestly, I don't really know whats fun about playing a tournament where you face 6 fat turret lists in a row. Do you find that fun?

People start adding brobots into the things they dislike when they started winning. If you add 4-5 more list archetypes to the winner's circle people will hate those as well.

I can't say I agree with the last statement, the TIE swarm has done well since the game released and can win if well flown. However it doesn't get hate - why? Because it is a skill cap list. Just like Ace arc dodger lists that stomp at store level when well flown. I can beat average skill players with 3 interceptors because I can outfly them. However when you give an easy to fly ship like a turret with insane damage mitigation to a player of equal skill of myself it becomes a hated list since it is a borderline win condition when you plunk your turret down on the table.

Skillcap lists that win will be respected, not hated. Turrets are not skill based lists-that is why they are hated.

Right, because a lot of people are giving Fel players due credit for flying Soontir at a competitive level...

There are a couple turrets that are pretty easy to fly. Most of them aren't though and the ace they fly with is far from a starter ship.

Turrets are not hard to fly at all...and I wasn't talking about a single ace escorting a turret that can bait/switch with the turret, I was referring to flying 3 glass cannon ships that all need to arc dodge every turn or they get blown apart. The mental capacity taken to maneuver 3 aces successfully is way higher than flying one as an escort.

I know this might sound crazy, and I brought it up when having a discussion about how to nerf turrets/large base ships before almost as a joke, but after thinking about it I thought it actually could work.

Why not nerf engine upgrade on those ships the same way barrel roll is nerfed? You put the 1 Template down sideways in front of the ship and only move it that length. It would be much more difficult to skim in and out of ships arcs if it wasn't moving as far. And since they are "big" and not as agile, they only get that option and no bank options.

Not sure if it would work, but just a thought.

changing boost for large ships. Arc-dodging and Shuttles as fast as A-Wings are a little excessive. There's a great thread (inexplicably in the rules q's section) about using the side of the template to boost forward, or placing the banks on the outer edges of the base rather than between the nubs. This would weaken the above issues, as well as bring Boost in line with Barrel Roll for large ships. I think it's a good idea that tones down the strength of large ships with boost, while keeping it as a viable choice.

If it's crazy, you're not the only crazy one.

I think it is safe to say that everyone who plays this game would be happy if FFG never adds another turret to the game. Dash was a horrible addition to the game in my opinion. Not only did they add a turret they added a ship that ignores a primary rule of the game.

Would it be awful if we just banned Engine Upgrade on large ships?

Wouldn't fix anything. The "Fat" ships aren't more powerful in a basic sense than multiples of decent small ships. The problem is that two 50 point ships have an inherent advantage over five 20 point ships due to the scoring system in timed games. The 5 ship player can score 0/50/100 and the two ship player can score 0/20/40/60/80/100. If both sides take down seventy points of the enemy, who wins? If the swarm takes out 90 points of the enemy and the two ship takes out 60, who wins?

Maybe MoV points measured on damage dealt/total hull?

If a 2 ship list tables a 5 ship list, but each ship has 1 hull remaining each, I would think 100-0 would be an unfair representation on how the match went. If say that list had 20HP total between the ships, the losing opponent should have 18/20 points, or better measured as a percentage of 90% of damage dealt. Though that player still has a loss, it should be far ahead of other 1 loss players that were unable to deal a lot of damage. Also, if say a 2 ship list ends with 1 hull each, but a 5 ship list lost 1 ship and the rest are at full health by the end of time, I would think the win should go to the 5 ship list, as they did much more damage and could have defeated the enemy with more time.

We need to just accept that all things are true, but they aren't totally true.

1. Engine Upgrade is incredibly powerful on large bases, but it isn't the only thing that makes them good.

2. Turrets can be easier to fly, but more successful players by fly them really well by getting past the "easy" surface layer with smart 2 and 3 turn thinking. The easy first step probably makes it simpler to progress to 2nd level thinking, but it doesn't make it auto-fly either.

3. The scoring system is a problem, but if it were the only advantage they would just get blasted away. Fat ships are both good and they score well.

4. Uber-defensive upgrades are a problem, but they are able to be overcome with focus fire (see 1 and 2)

Similarly, Fat turrets do rule the meta, but they are not the only viable thing in the meta. And the meta is expanding, but at the same time the meta is not headed toward full fledged diversity.

Too often we see people say "X is the problem" and that argument is easily countered by someone who feels X is not the problem, because any one of these things looked at by itself does not make a ship a juggernaut and there are counters to each one. It is the whole of these items, which are manageable in and of themselves as parts, that creates issues. We need to stop arguing that any one thing leads to the "dominance" of a ship, else we just go in circles as we have done.

There isn't a quick fix just by tweaking one of these things.

As a side note, I'll just add that some of the recent design choices in the game are not good for the casual scene, either. In particular, the defensive and regenerative cards combined with some of the newer ships lead to an almost pre-determined end game based upon # of ships remaining rather than quality of ships remaining. I often refer to this example, but it illustrates this so well, combining a core defensive upgrade with a new ship. I was flying a near full health Boba Fett + VI + Engine + Tactician (46) vs a Knave Squadron + R2-D2 (31). When first getting into this matchup, I thought what a laugh it was. With my two arcs, EU, and Boba's ability I could run circles around this ship all day. Except unless I could land 3 hits (1 to overcome an evade, 1 to overcome R2-D2, and 1 to land damage) I was doing nothing, and that only worked if my opponent only rolled 0 evades. If he rolled any, I make no progress. Not only that, I had to land 3 hits turn after turn consistently against 0 evades, else he regains yet another shield, so no regrouping for another pass. Land 3 hits while my opponent rolls 0 evades for 4-5 turns consecutively or lose. I don't know, but the game has a problem when any 1 ship reaches a point of near "invincibility" in a 1v1 matchup. I'm not saying that the odds should be equal - no way a TIE fighter should be soloing a Falcon 1v1, but the defensive upgrades now available all too often lead to these ridiculous "no hope" scenarios. Target priority is a piece of this of course, but in my mind, it is pretty out there for a 46 point ship to have no chance of winning against a 31 point ship. Even odds, even some disadvantage due to ability matchup, fine. But no chance? The game has become riddled with these no hope end game scenarios - Corran, Fel, Fat Han and the like. I greatly understand the appeal of these ships - if I can manipulate it down to a 1v1 or at times even a 2v1, it hardly matters what you have fielded, I'm going to win out.

I won my Regionals final match with 2 Z-95's against Corran at the end. Never give up, never surrender!!!

I was at the same regional at Epic Loot in OH. Hats off to the TO and the store! It was well run and an awesome game store. I didn't make the top eight, but I noticed the same thing when I left - all fat ships - IGs, Falcons and Decimators. Not a surprise at all from my experience.

That said, I did finish tied for sixteenth with Soontir, Carnor and a Royal Guard, all with PTL, Autothrusters, and Stealth and had a blast. I did not fight a turret all day so it was the best of X-wing in my opinion - pure dogfighting and outmanuevering!

I would limit the fixes to perfect turrets (decimator and falcon) only with two simple changes:

1. Give me an extra green when at range 2-3 and outside of arc. The extra green has a lesser statistical impact than taking away a red, and for realism a farther shot outside of arc should have a defensive advantage. Blaster turret doesn't need this modification because you have to burn a focus, but perfect turrets are still tipping the scales too far their way.

2. You should have to hit to to use Vader on the Decimator. Yes you should have to hit. This is clearly broken and takes all the fun and competition out of the game. For example - attack-miss-vader crit-attack-miss-vader crit - oh now your ship is destroyed on round one. Let's move on to the next round of this "dogfight" game and do the same auto-destroy with my perfect arc on your gutsy skill based three-hull ship. Yes, I do have Vader hate - not on the shuttle, but only the decimator.

So leave Y-wings and hawks alone and give a little more balanced help with the big guns. Again, hats off to Epic Loot for an awesome Saturday!

Edit: You could also just have Vader work only after an attack in arc rather than having to hit. That's probably more fair given that the same mechanic is currently what the shuttle has.

I like the extra green die idea if shooting outside of arc. Should be primary weapon turret only. I fly Han competitively and I would be ok with that. Gives my opponent another chance to roll a blank lol

The phantom did not get nerfed 'ability-wise', it got nerfed 'player-wise'. I'll probably be loved/hated (more of the latter I'm sure) for saying this but the FAQ separated the truly skilled from the skill-less, the players that have the presence of mind to anticipate and read their opponent from the ones that cannot.

This. I'm still seeing Phantom players have success. There was no nerf, just took away the maneuver "correction" Phantoms had when your original choice was blocked/not ideal. Good pilots don't put themselves in those situations.

What did this result in at Dayton? As best as I can remember...

Top 8 - All big ships that have an MoV advantage. I think 2 players were undefeated and 6 had 1 loss. 4 Falcon, 2 Deci, 2 Dual IG88

9th & 10th place - Small ship lists with 4-1 records, no modified wins. I think BBBBZ and Corran + Tycho + Proto. Missing cut by 40 or less MoV.

11 - 16th place -1 loss players with mixture of low MoV, modified wins, and draws

17+ - 2 or more losses

I don't know the whole story for each game, so it is possible all Top 8 had few games where their big ship limped away at low hp, securing those 50+ pts. In an all small ship list, it is more likely that half of those points would be lost, so lower MoV.

In summary, I have no problem with the MoV advantage those limping defensive ships have as long as the tournament format does not mean MoV is a huge influence for a lot of players. I think the sweet spot for tournaments is where a single 1 loss player with 1 modified win (or if all full wins only then 1, 2 loss player) makes the cut. Tie Breakers will have very little influence if the tournament structure is set up to reduce their need.

I think the solution is to break apart FFGs tourney format into smaller player number divisions. Allowing Top 16 cuts or extra rounds at lower player counts. This will reduce the need for tie breakers in general, which makes the game much harder to "game".

Most sports have 30 something teams, with 8 team playoffs. If a tournament is fielding 60+ people, top cut should be 16. I think you're right, this will farther limit the effect of MoV.

"A ship does not gain a range bonus when attacking a ship outside of its firing arc."

Buttcannon still works as intended. Game fixed. Drop the confetti. /thread

This is also a possible solution. I like it, even as a turret flyer.

Overall great thread and great discussion! Lot's of great ideas. I think FFG can do something similar to what they did with the Phantom and just change the errata to either take bonuses away outside of arc, or give defenders bonuses when being shot out of arc with a primary weapon.

I don't necessarily think point fortresses are the problem, as with a 100 point limit, you have to use the limited amount of points as efficiently as possible. Why would you deck out a Z-95 with a ton of upgrades if it's just going to pop in the first turn? (Yes, I've done this before haha). Maybe increasing this limit, or having a pool of "additional upgrades" for ordinance, etc. could be a possible solution.

I took a Han+3Z list to regionals and won it, with 4 out of my 8 matches dealing with ships with autothrusters. I'm glad for the addition of this upgrade, as annoying as it might be, because it's keeping turret players honest by doing their best to keep the opponent within arc. Even though I was running Pred/Gunner I still flew Han with my front arc to disable the ability, so I would have no problem having to do this more often if there is an errata that promotes front arc flying, just like the good Phantom pilots continued flying them after the errata.

Hmm it's almost like i've been saying for month's now turret use isn't linked to phantoms...

Turrets are not that hard to use i know people would love to believe they are but it takes far more effort to fly three small based ships than it does a turret.

Somethings got to give sooner or later, people wont willingly lose the crutch and walk on their own so ffg needs to take it away with some tough love.

It's a dogfighting game where no one in tournaments dogfights.

I can't say I agree with the last statement, the TIE swarm has done well since the game released and can win if well flown. However it doesn't get hate - why? Because it is a skill cap list. Just like Ace arc dodger lists that stomp at store level when well flown. I can beat average skill players with 3 interceptors because I can outfly them. However when you give an easy to fly ship like a turret with insane damage mitigation to a player of equal skill of myself it becomes a hated list since it is a borderline win condition when you plunk your turret down on the table.

Skillcap lists that win will be respected, not hated. Turrets are not skill based lists-that is why they are hated.

Nope. People hated the swarm in the beginning, almost as much as they hated the turrets. Whatever is on top, will be hated. This is the fact of the militant casual.

Personally, I think the solution is scenarios or missions. Make it like Armada or a number of other game systems. Have it where it isn't just about killing each other. That would probably be the best way to bring variety into the game. FFG is stated as wanting to add missions in once things got boring. Maybe now?

The thing is, I don't think the problem is *turrets*, per se...rather, it's the other thing you combined with them.

Engine upgrades.

Barring 'engine upgrade' entirely on large ships (which I can't imagine FFG would do, given the upgrade still only comes in one of the large-ship expansions), I don't know what better could be done than that.

I think this would be the best solution is to update the Engine Upgrade Card (FAQ) to say "small ships only". It seems like the easiest fix that will just involve changing the EU card.

I'm not quoting it because the quote would be massive and I'm on mobile - but to the guy that said they fly Han "competitively" hah Hahahah hahah heh hehehe

No.

You just fly Han, nothing competitive about it. A modified FREIGHTER that is just as fast as an A-Wing with increased durability and firepower. Also justifying turrets by "hey I would be fine with giving them an extra green die to blank on" further defines you as scum.

Have a nice day

I can't say I agree with the last statement, the TIE swarm has done well since the game released and can win if well flown. However it doesn't get hate - why? Because it is a skill cap list. Just like Ace arc dodger lists that stomp at store level when well flown. I can beat average skill players with 3 interceptors because I can outfly them. However when you give an easy to fly ship like a turret with insane damage mitigation to a player of equal skill of myself it becomes a hated list since it is a borderline win condition when you plunk your turret down on the table.

Skillcap lists that win will be respected, not hated. Turrets are not skill based lists-that is why they are hated.

Nope. People hated the swarm in the beginning, almost as much as they hated the turrets. Whatever is on top, will be hated. This is the fact of the militant casual.

Anything that brings the meta back to actual dog-fighting is fine by me. I'd rather see a skillful player managing 7 small ships in a furball than a player flying a turret-primary ship around the edges of a battle.

Hmm it's almost like i've been saying for month's now turret use isn't linked to phantoms...

Turrets are not that hard to use i know people would love to believe they are but it takes far more effort to fly three small based ships than it does a turret.

Somethings got to give sooner or later, people wont willingly lose the crutch and walk on their own so ffg needs to take it away with some tough love.

It's a dogfighting game where no one in tournaments dogfights.

qft

Kiting does not equal dogfighting.

I'm not quoting it because the quote would be massive and I'm on mobile - but to the guy that said they fly Han "competitively" hah Hahahah hahah heh hehehe

No.

You just fly Han, nothing competitive about it. A modified FREIGHTER that is just as fast as an A-Wing with increased durability and firepower. Also justifying turrets by "hey I would be fine with giving them an extra green die to blank on" further defines you as scum.

Have a nice day

Yeah, cause obviously there's no wrong way to fly Han, right?

Either your sarcasm is failing to come across properly, or you need a timeout.

I'm not quoting it because the quote would be massive and I'm on mobile - but to the guy that said they fly Han "competitively" hah Hahahah hahah heh hehehe

No.

You just fly Han, nothing competitive about it. A modified FREIGHTER that is just as fast as an A-Wing with increased durability and firepower. Also justifying turrets by "hey I would be fine with giving them an extra green die to blank on" further defines you as scum.

Have a nice day

I've only flown Han at a store championship and regionals, so yes, "competitively".

Sounds like you're having trouble beating Han. I beat him yesterday with 4 Zs and a Y wing in a tournament against a good pilot. He's not OP. You'll just have to keep trying!

Well this thread has exploded with replies faster than I can read.

Things that should be banned:

Fat ships of all kinds

Brobots

4 Y lists

B Wings

Phantoms

Any lists that win more than one regional

Any ship that performs well and is popular

Large based ships that are not Shuttles (actually, ban Vader on Shuttles

Small based ships that are not X-Wings

Whining about the turret meta

Complaining about large ships that win because they don't fit your preconceived notions of how the game should be played (ITS A DAWGFIGHTIN' GAAAYME)

It's a Star Wars Miniatures Game.

Turrets are Star Wars. If you want to play a pure dog-fighting game, go play Wings of War, or load up your copy of X-Wing versus TIE Fighter then email Lucasarts for a turret nerf when a Lancer frigate starts shooting at you.