"A ship does not gain a range bonus when attacking a ship outside of its firing arc."

Buttcannon still works as intended. Game fixed. Drop the confetti. /thread

If this is the proposed fix it needs to be consistent with secondary weapon Turrets. No range bonus to the attacker while firing at range 1 and no range bonus to the defender while defending at range 3.

There's no need. Secondary weapons do not use range bonuses at all. The wording would only apply to ships attacking outside of arc with primary weapons.

I'm pretty sure Chiraneau/Fel would still be the most common #1 list at regionals with that range rule change.

How do BTL-A4 Y-Wings hold up against fat pancakes? With Blaster/Ion, 4 of them roll 20 attack dice per firing round...

I do think something needs to be done. While there are a few non-fat turret lists or bro bots winning, they are all outside the US. I always heard that US gamers tend to be more power gamer, but I think this kind of explains that. Having a few lists win to me is not proof that the meta is changing. It's proof that the meta is stale. While some are cheering for the quarter of winners not being fat turrets or bro bots, I lament the other 75%. Power lists and unbalanced game design is what drove me away from WHFB. It has the potential to do the same with X-wing.

I've been using "Prince and the New Power Generation", which is Xizor and 5 x Z-95's. I've found it works good vs. YT's, but I don't have a lot of experience with Deci-Soontir builds. I am also having trouble with bro bots, but I think I just need more practice.

Part of beating the YT's is knowing how they play. For one, they try to draw you through the asteroid field to break you up. Don't be suckered in. They will run out of space eventually. Yes, it does mean that you kill time which makes it harder to win. Next, the Falcon will always present itself as a target for a turn, but then zip off to the side and boost to get out of your way. That's when the Outrider usually starts blasting you from the other flank. So, the trick is to try to prevent the Falcon from running away. If you can stuff a Z-95 right where you expect the YT to go, you can block it. Once it's blocked and without actions, it tends to die fast. Of course, you have to have the ships in the right spot to pull this off and guess which direction they are going to go. You can't always do it, but just expect it and expect what the Falcon is going to do. He wants to boost out of your arc and let you chase him while he kills you. Don't fall for it.

Now, the Deci-Soontir build is harder. I'm taking a Flechette Torp. to try to double stress Soontir, but I haven't had a lot of games against him yet. Thankfully, my local gamers don't buy into the meta and play just to have fun. It does make it difficult to get good practice games in, though.

I have heard of people spreading out vs. Bro Bots and blocking the S-loop as a way to corner them. With 3 agility, though, they could just roll well and defeat your best laid plans. Z's have a hard time to get through that damage. I'm need more practice.

Someone suggested to me that I try 2 Y-wings with Autoblasters as their friend does well with it. I'd hate to lose the blockers with that, but I have looked at dropping 2 Z-95's for 1 auto-blaster Y-wing. I could even then bump the 3 remaining Z's to PS 3 build and avoid Predator. I have a couple of weeks before my Regionals.

I have to admit that I'm tempted to just not go to Regionals. Facing the same lists over and over again is pretty boring. Do I really want to spend the time, money, and marital bliss to do it? I like the game, but facing these "uber" lists is just repetitive. I feel like I could probably have more fun just hanging out with my friends.

Facing the same lists over and over again is pretty boring. Do I really want to spend the time, money, and marital bliss to do it? I feel like I could probably have more fun just hanging out with my friends.

Turns out that was exactly what I did this weekend. No regrets.

Facing the same lists over and over again is pretty boring. Do I really want to spend the time, money, and marital bliss to do it? I feel like I could probably have more fun just hanging out with my friends.

Turns out that was exactly what I did this weekend. No regrets.

Do you enjoy the current meta, though? Do you think there isn't a problem with the game? If you like the current meta or don't think there is an issue, then your opinion has less weight for me to consider. If I am worried that it will be boring, but that type of repetition doesn't bore you, then your opinion does not mean much to me. No offense. It's just that you like a different type of game, it seems.

Facing the same lists over and over again is pretty boring. Do I really want to spend the time, money, and marital bliss to do it? I feel like I could probably have more fun just hanging out with my friends.

Turns out that was exactly what I did this weekend. No regrets.

Do you enjoy the current meta, though? Do you think there isn't a problem with the game? If you like the current meta or don't think there is an issue, then your opinion has less weight for me to consider. If I am worried that it will be boring, but that type of repetition doesn't bore you, then your opinion does not mean much to me. No offense. It's just that you like a different type of game, it seems.

I think a lot of people complaining about the same old lists tend to overlook how different these lists really are. That's a good portion of the reason why they are frustrated by them.

And I think it bears repeating that the meta right now is as diverse as it had ever been during competitive events. It doesn't have the diversity of a late-Fall 12-person contest for $10 store credit, but it really can't. People seem to think that the janky, terrible lists they face in non-competitive events are more fun, but they really aren't for a competitive player. If I waste my Saturday afternoon to face a bunch of SoT-Tycho + rookie lists I really feel like I've wasted my time.

In all of 2015 I have only faced 1 list twice. If I face Chirpy/Fel with rebel captive and the next game I pull Chirpy/Fel with Vader it is NOT at all the same game.

I think a lot of people complaining about the same old lists tend to overlook how different these lists really are. That's a good portion of the reason why they are frustrated by them.

I played in a Spring Tournament a couple of weekends ago and I faced two double YT lists (in a row). Yeah, the lists were different, but not that different. They flew the same tactics. I flew the same tactics against them. Does it really matter that much if it's Fat Han or Fat Chewie? The only difference is how fast he'll chew through my Z's or how much harder it is to take down. In my humble opinion, the game doesn't change that much.

In all of 2015 I have only faced 1 list twice. If I face Chirpy/Fel with rebel captive and the next game I pull Chirpy/Fel with Vader it is NOT at all the same game.

I think a lot of people complaining about the same old lists tend to overlook how different these lists really are. That's a good portion of the reason why they are frustrated by them.

Agreed. Regionals may be "dominated" by turret-and-ace style lists, but subtle differences between each list makes them very different games. It's incredibly rare to see the same list twice in a tournament, much less play against the same list twice... even then you're not playing the list, you're playing the player. In Tulsa I flew Brobots against: Xizor + 5Z's, Scum Fett and 2 Hogs, Fat Han and Corran, Corran and 2 Y's, and Fett/Palob/Ka'ato.

To say you're not going to Regionals because you don't want to play against the same list 6 times is hyperbole, because it isn't going to happen. If you don't want to go, don't go, but don't let that be your excuse.

In all of 2015 I have only faced 1 list twice. If I face Chirpy/Fel with rebel captive and the next game I pull Chirpy/Fel with Vader it is NOT at all the same game.

I think a lot of people complaining about the same old lists tend to overlook how different these lists really are. That's a good portion of the reason why they are frustrated by them.

Does it really matter that much if it's Fat Han or Fat Chewie? The only difference is how fast he'll chew through my Z's or how much harder it is to take down. In my humble opinion, the game doesn't change that much.

Facing the same lists over and over again is pretty boring. Do I really want to spend the time, money, and marital bliss to do it? I feel like I could probably have more fun just hanging out with my friends.

Turns out that was exactly what I did this weekend. No regrets.

Do you enjoy the current meta, though? Do you think there isn't a problem with the game? If you like the current meta or don't think there is an issue, then your opinion has less weight for me to consider. If I am worried that it will be boring, but that type of repetition doesn't bore you, then your opinion does not mean much to me. No offense. It's just that you like a different type of game, it seems.

None taken, I knew what you meant. Taking the time and money out of married life right now is one thing. But yeah repetitive competition on top of that would not help my enjoyment of the game. Thing is, I understand why people fly those lists, beyond "playing to win". I quite enjoy Soontir Fel and Corran Horn and pairing them with "pancakes" happens to be not only fun, but also strong. However, variety is the spice of life as they say. In pretty much every game I play, I do so for the new experiences, even at competitive levels. I've never flown the same list twice in a tournament, and don't plan to if I can help it. "Limitless replayability" I find produces the most fun, for me, since new challenges await every single game. What that means for the X-Wing meta, you already have to play your own list all day, it would be nice if the opponents' lists weren't all the same, too. This isn't so much a problem in my area on the local level, and as I didn't go to a Regional I don't know how much it was there first hand, but again, it wouldn't be preferable.

As far as 'fixing the problem', there are two solutions (implemented one-at-a-time of course) I'm a fan of. Firstly, partial scoring. X-Wing itself isn't made for a timed tournament setting, it's made for dogfights to the death. As I said before, two fleets don't meet in space and when the egg timer goes off they agree to go home for dinner. Second, changing boost for large ships. Arc-dodging and Shuttles as fast as A-Wings are a little excessive. There's a great thread (inexplicably in the rules q's section) about using the side of the template to boost forward, or placing the banks on the outer edges of the base rather than between the nubs. This would weaken the above issues, as well as bring Boost in line with Barrel Roll for large ships. I think it's a good idea that tones down the strength of large ships with boost, while keeping it as a viable choice.

I hope that's an opinion you can respect.

The Dayton, OH Regional tournament format is an interesting candidate for debate over the MoV advantage that big ships get. First, I'll explain how the tourney was layed out:

1. 64 player max for store

2. Per FFG, up to 64 players is still 5 rounds, cut to Top 8.

3. 60 or so players showed up

4. Something like 22 players used the Store Champ bye

5. 65+ players moves to 6 rounds and cut to Top 8

So with the number of players reaching the peak requirements for 5 rounds, we get into a situation where players with 1 loss do not make the Top 8. So a 4-1 record is not guarantee, which isn't a horrid thing, because 2 loss records probably shouldn't make the cut. However, with this number of players, and maybe 1 or 2 draws, the highest MoV 3-2 player didn't even make Top 16, which is quite interesting to me.

What I'm getting at is, this tournament relied heavily on MoV to decide your placement, more so than usual where it only influences 1 or 2 players at the bottom end of the cut. For this reason, squads with some sort of MoV advantage (defensive ships that limp away at low hp when time is called and offer no points) have a large advantage. I am okay with this in most tournaments where not so many 4-1 records are fighting for the Top 8 and it is more likely that even a 2 loss record or Modified win 4-1 makes the cut. However, it doesn't feel right when that large of a pool can be subject to the secondary tie breaker.

What did this result in at Dayton? As best as I can remember...

Top 8 - All big ships that have an MoV advantage. I think 2 players were undefeated and 6 had 1 loss. 4 Falcon, 2 Deci, 2 Dual IG88

9th & 10th place - Small ship lists with 4-1 records, no modified wins. I think BBBBZ and Corran + Tycho + Proto. Missing cut by 40 or less MoV.

11 - 16th place -1 loss players with mixture of low MoV, modified wins, and draws

17+ - 2 or more losses

I don't know the whole story for each game, so it is possible all Top 8 had few games where their big ship limped away at low hp, securing those 50+ pts. In an all small ship list, it is more likely that half of those points would be lost, so lower MoV.

In summary, I have no problem with the MoV advantage those limping defensive ships have as long as the tournament format does not mean MoV is a huge influence for a lot of players. I think the sweet spot for tournaments is where a single 1 loss player with 1 modified win (or if all full wins only then 1, 2 loss player) makes the cut. Tie Breakers will have very little influence if the tournament structure is set up to reduce their need.

I think the solution is to break apart FFGs tourney format into smaller player number divisions. Allowing Top 16 cuts or extra rounds at lower player counts. This will reduce the need for tie breakers in general, which makes the game much harder to "game".

60 minute rounds would also play a factor in MOV being important.

haven't read the whole thread, but I'll pipe in with my suggestion "fix" to turrets: make them range 1-2 only. you want to shoot at a guy at r3, you have to point your nose at him, just like the rest of us.

never gonna happen though :-(

In all of 2015 I have only faced 1 list twice. If I face Chirpy/Fel with rebel captive and the next game I pull Chirpy/Fel with Vader it is NOT at all the same game.

I think a lot of people complaining about the same old lists tend to overlook how different these lists really are. That's a good portion of the reason why they are frustrated by them.

Agreed. Regionals may be "dominated" by turret-and-ace style lists, but subtle differences between each list makes them very different games. It's incredibly rare to see the same list twice in a tournament, much less play against the same list twice... even then you're not playing the list, you're playing the player. In Tulsa I flew Brobots against: Xizor + 5Z's, Scum Fett and 2 Hogs, Fat Han and Corran, Corran and 2 Y's, and Fett/Palob/Ka'ato.

To say you're not going to Regionals because you don't want to play against the same list 6 times is hyperbole, because it isn't going to happen. If you don't want to go, don't go, but don't let that be your excuse.

I disagree that slight variations to the same list make the game that much different. YT-1300 + Outrider w/ Mangler vs YT-1300 + Outrider w/ HLC has some differences, but not enough to really make that much of a difference in the game. Does he hang back and try to blast you? Or does he REALLY try to hang back and blast you?

I never stated that I'd face the exact same list 6 times in a day. I do expect to face 5 out of 6 matches to be either Soontir + Deci, two YT's, YT + support ships, or Bro Bots. Slight variations will make slight differences. Those differences aren't really variety, at least not in my opinion. You can be thrilled at the differences between Soontir with Shield Upgrade or Stealth Device, but it's not that exciting to me.

In all of 2015 I have only faced 1 list twice. If I face Chirpy/Fel with rebel captive and the next game I pull Chirpy/Fel with Vader it is NOT at all the same game.

I think a lot of people complaining about the same old lists tend to overlook how different these lists really are. That's a good portion of the reason why they are frustrated by them.

Does it really matter that much if it's Fat Han or Fat Chewie? The only difference is how fast he'll chew through my Z's or how much harder it is to take down. In my humble opinion, the game doesn't change that much.

It definitely changes how hard they are to bring down. It should change how you fly against it.

Actually, it doesn't. With my Xizor & Z's list, you just block them and fire. Rinse and repeat. It might just effect that it takes longer to kill Chewbacca or that Han kills more of my Z's faster. It doesn't really change my play still. It isn't like he actually flies much different. It's still the bait and boost away tactic.

haven't read the whole thread, but I'll pipe in with my suggestion "fix" to turrets: make them range 1-2 only. you want to shoot at a guy at r3, you have to point your nose at him, just like the rest of us.

never gonna happen though :-(

The thread is mostly pretty good and worth a skim. It's not about coming up with rules changes, but about how to play against them. The OP did well at a Regionals with this type of list and sees the stale meta.

Outrider mangler and hlc are MASSIVELY different

Vader vs captive is not. Chiraneau will still be boosting around getting free evades and shooting range 1-3 while soonts remains completely unchanged. What are you going to do? Arc dodge the vader crew? Not shoot at the captive while cheri gets to shoot free of concern?

There is not enough nuance in primary wep turrets for a single upgrade to change the bulk of their boring to play against style. There is more difference between the yt1300 and decided, but the majority is the same boring bull only the deci is easier to deal with wthiout agility & c3po. The change in hard turns also affects how they planbto run around your squad.

I do expect to face 5 out of 6 matches to be either Soontir + Deci, two YT's, YT + support ships, or Bro Bots.

I would encourage you to attend a Regional and challenge this assumption for yourself.

Turreted ships all have good dials. The worst dial on a turret primary is the Decimator and really its not that bad of a dial. No K-turn (who cares) but not a spot of red on the dial. Both YTs have ridiculous dials. It makes prediciting where they'll be just after a maneuver hard, let a lone after a boost or barrel roll. If the turreted ships where more inline with HWK or Shuttle dials, they wouldn't be has strong as they are.

Can't change them now though...

To Phild0's point regarding tie breakers, I asked for a copy of the final results determining the top 8 at Epic Loot's OH regional. There were after 5 rounds of 64 players:

2 @ 25 points (ranks 1-2)

9 @ 20 points (rank 3-11)

2 @ 18 points (rank 12-13)

4 @ 16 points (rank 14-17)

I certainly would have played another round to help sort this out more. :-) I don't think it solves the fat perfect turret issue, but it would have helped sift the leader board beyond tie breakers.

haven't read the whole thread, but I'll pipe in with my suggestion "fix" to turrets: make them range 1-2 only. you want to shoot at a guy at r3, you have to point your nose at him, just like the rest of us.

never gonna happen though :-(

The thread is mostly pretty good and worth a skim. It's not about coming up with rules changes, but about how to play against them. The OP did well at a Regionals with this type of list and sees the stale meta.

I appreciate the OP's honesty and think we do need some minor rules changes. What he said about no effective counter is true outside of the tail ends of dice bell curves - the average game heavily favors fat perfect turrets.

Two weeks ago I faced down a dual decimator (Oincun and Patrol Leader + Vader) in the final of a store tournament. The dual decimator list won easily after Vadering two of my ships and the gunner on Oincun killed the third. My opponent had the guts to say that he net listed and borrowed the ships from his friend who wanted him to get into x-wing. This was his second tournament and the prior one he finished in second with a dual falcon list. Said he wasn't going to start with X-wing though because turrets were broken and Vader was broken, and the finals videos he saw were about large ships flying in circles rolling dice. Let's get back to more dogfights!

Stilgod you are a genius. A simple four-word errata could potentially swing the meta away from YT-1300s and Decimators to other ships. HWK-290s and Y-Wings would of course not be affected, because secondary weapons.

Page 11 - 2. Roll Attack Dice - Fourth Paragraph

The attacker resolves any card abilities that

allow him to roll additional (or fewer) dice.

Also, if he is targeting a ship at Range 1 with

his primary weapon within its firing arc, he rolls 1 additional

attack die.

Edit- Changed from page 10 errata to page 11 errata to correct situation where it would be better to attack a range-3 ship outside your firing arc with a turret as opposed to within.

For regionals I was planning on flying Keyan with Adv sensors and Stay on Target with 3 Blues but I got tired of 'chasing' turrets. Keyan is great for killing those shifty IG's.

After winning 8-9 games straight I just got tired of chasing those ships and corralling them. It takes a lot of effort to plan it all out and one bad move and its over. I'm now wanting to fly some fat ship myself as it doesn't require as much effort to chase down my opponents.

Imo to be really honest, I see Brobots as an extension of the big fat large ships with gunner capacity, boost and large amounts of damage mitigation. I don't like them any more than any of the fat turrets on the field.

The current swarm IS BBBBZ. Its a meta dependent thing. Tie Swarm isn't the only swarm. BBBBZ concentrates fire better in this meta. The Brobots 3green dice is actually really tough to chew through with just ties.

Honestly, I don't really know whats fun about playing a tournament where you face 6 fat turret lists in a row. Do you find that fun?

People start adding brobots into the things they dislike when they started winning. If you add 4-5 more list archetypes to the winner's circle people will hate those as well.

I can't say I agree with the last statement, the TIE swarm has done well since the game released and can win if well flown. However it doesn't get hate - why? Because it is a skill cap list. Just like Ace arc dodger lists that stomp at store level when well flown. I can beat average skill players with 3 interceptors because I can outfly them. However when you give an easy to fly ship like a turret with insane damage mitigation to a player of equal skill of myself it becomes a hated list since it is a borderline win condition when you plunk your turret down on the table.

Skillcap lists that win will be respected, not hated. Turrets are not skill based lists-that is why they are hated.

Stilgod you are a genius. A simple four-word errata could potentially swing the meta away from YT-1300s and Decimators to other ships. HWK-290s and Y-Wings would of course not be affected, because secondary weapons.

Range Combat Bonuses

Depending on the range between the ships, the

attacker or defender may roll additional dice during this

attack (see “Roll Attack Dice” and “Roll Defense Dice”

on pages 11–12). Range combat bonuses only occur

when a ship is attacking within its firing arc with its primary weapon.