I think one of the interesting mathematical things about fat ships in this game is that it's not just points denial that makes them good, it's the ability added by the upgrade. I this game, most upgrades are not simple additions, they're multipliers. Engine Upgrade is the biggest example. A Z95 would never take EU because it's not worth 4 points to make a 2-attack PS2 ship better. 4 points to make a 55 point turret better, on the other hand, is trivial. PS works the same way. Bidding up on a named YT or Decimator is cheap PS, because the PS is enhancing the offense, defense, and positional ability of a 50-60 point ship. Everything sort of feeds off each other. Better PS lets you see more opposing ships before you move, which lets you use maneuverability to bring guns to bear, which also benefit from high PS because it can take targets off the board before they shoot, which improves your survivability, which is also improved by maneuverability, which is improved by high PS. If you had a 40 point ship and 2 25 point ships, you'd almost always be best served by putting your remaining 10 points in upgrades on the 40 pointer, because those upgrades are all feeding off of each other.

I don't know how to stop this, or that it should be stopped, but it's not just point fortressing. Fattening up ships makes for a genuinely more powerful list.

What if ordnance received a 1 dice bonus when firing against large ships?

Here's the problem as I see it:

Large base + boost: this is hypermobile, but has counters in higher PS + boost and control list (i.e. stress).

Turret: this makes maneuverability easier, but has a counter in Autothrusters.

Fatness: this is durable, but has a counter in a high volume of attack dice (although this isn't a very good counter, since it can still be very luck-dependent and there is no way to shut C-3P0 off).

But add them all up . . . how many lists have high PS and boost/control, autothrusters, AND a bunch of attack dice? How many of those aren't fat turret lists?

There needs to be some overlap in those counters. If there was a common list that hard-countered these ships, bringing them would be more risky; but as it is, these lists are virtually impossible to completely counter.

I'll just point this out and then I probably need to be done with this kind of thread. Remember when Wave 4 came out and the turret became king? People pointed to the phantom as the reason. Now, it's not just the turret (though they still make up a lot of the top lists) it's other large base ships (Firesprays and IG 88s) and people are pointing to the scoring system as the reason, not that the problem is the turrets themselves. I do think that's part of it, but as I said above, I don't see that as the reason they are dominating by themselves. (My own personal experience in untimed games is that I've had swarms killed off by IG 88 and turrets and I've done the same to them myself).

They had good cards that helped them in Wave 4 and beyond that actually make them better. Predator combined with EU and Isard/3P0 allows for defensive and offensive modifications when using EU to dodge arcs and Predator is also an anti-swarm card. In addition to that, we've seen bigger guns (HLCs) enter the fray more frequently and better support ships: Z-95, Corran Horn, Soontir with thrusters.

All this is to say that even if the scoring changes, I'll make the prediction that large bases continue to appear in higher proportional representation than small ships because they're just better (and I think Biophysical gave an excellent underlying explanation as to why).

I recently won the Regionals held in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada with a Whisper/Echo/Academy Pilot squad.

There were 28 players including at least two who came up from the USA. There were only a few turreted ship lists, including a Falcon/Outrider list and two almost identical lists with an Outrider backed up by a pair of B-Wings. Not one turreted list made it to the top eight.

My Phantoms, a TIE swarm, Brobots, and B-Wings seemed to rule that day.

I rarely see turrets even be competitive. I won a Store Championship with an eight TIE swarm.

Sorry I skipped reading all three pages leading up I just thought I'd just chime in. I think there's some merit to the idea that dual IG's are pushing the meta to turrets in a similar way the phantom did. I know I'd feel more comfortable not running a turret in a tourney without dual IG's lurking around. As far as I know there aren't many list archetypes outside of turrets that can stand up to fat builds and dual IG's at the same time. What generally does well against two IG's does not fair well against turrets and vice versa? Duals IG's have everything fat ships have except the 360 arc, thank goodness. They are a large ship with a boost, gunner ability(because who isn't running IG-88 B?), damage mitigation through autothrusters and evades, plus s-loops. I think IG's could have been 4 or more points cheaper without the boost action and still been a competitive ship. Forcing engine upgrade as a modification and taking autothrusters off the table. Its terribly difficult to knock one of these ships off the board quickly without 1 of 2 things, 4+ attack dice or turrets. I've played a lot of games with good players who fly the IG's very well and its so hard to keep those buggers in arc, hence turrets, we all know green dice will fail eventually, autothrusters be damned (It's what gunner/Luke is for). This is just my theory however. I strongly feel the more maneuverable FFG makes ships the more turrets become "the safe bet".

FFG nerfed phantoms but gave us IG's. Incidentally I have cause to wonder if the phantom people have shied from recently is a good counter to the IG's with the ability to pre-block, move afterwards and shoot with 4-5 native red dice. The phantom did not get nerfed 'ability-wise', it got nerfed 'player-wise'. I'll probably be loved/hated (more of the latter I'm sure) for saying this but the FAQ separated the truly skilled from the skill-less, the players that have the presence of mind to anticipate and read their opponent from the ones that cannot. Yet, everyone still have to deal with a different kind of predator out there and not many people feel confident without a big FAT security blanket. Myself included. I MUST HAVE ALL THE FFG BLING! HEIL FFG!

I recently won the Regionals held in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada with a Whisper/Echo/Academy Pilot squad.

There were 28 players including at least two who came up from the USA. There were only a few turreted ship lists, including a Falcon/Outrider list and two almost identical lists with an Outrider backed up by a pair of B-Wings. Not one turreted list made it to the top eight.

My Phantoms, a TIE swarm, Brobots, and B-Wings seemed to rule that day.

I rarely see turrets even be competitive. I won a Store Championship with an eight TIE swarm.

Dash cannot fit the definition of fat, maybe hefty if you do a push kyle build but he isn't as defensive as Han/Chewie with 3p0 and R2d2 or Luke.

I know if you had gone up against a VI RAC your squad would probably not have done so well (I don't mean my version in particular) simply because Echo and Whisper both fall short to his PS meaning even if you get shots you are getting shot first. A lot of players who do poorly with turrets tend to think because they are fat you can do whatever you want with them.

My game against the swarm had maybe 10 minutes left on the clock, it was a very calculated game and took lots of though into how I was going to engage. Boost in and around is what saved my ship and gave me the victory hands down. If I couldn't have positioned as well as I did RAC would have engaged the fleet too late and soontir would have died early on.

The best idea I have is to make 360 primary weapons just like all other weapons in the game.

They only get +1 attack for Range 1 while the target is in the primary arc. This will go along way to fixing the issue and force players with phat ships and turrets to fly better and not let people get behind them. Right now they don't care because wherever the target is doesn't matter. If they move to range 1 they get shot by an extra dice.

So even if a player spends a few turns to skillfully fly behind a 360 primary weapon ship and get to range 1 on them. There is no penalty for it for letting an enemy outmaneuver you. Make 360 primary weapon ships to only gain the +1 Attack for range 1 in primary arc, and it will now force them to fly differently.

It's a simple fix, that nerfs 360 primary ships only slightly, but will definitely make sense too.

My two cents!

eagletsi

Just thinking out loud, maybe ADV homing missiles will reduce the defenders AGI by one, would be a great missile and instantly worth EM, because that is two straight shots onto a falcon knocking 3p0 out of the equation.

It works great as a missile because that means wedge can't take it (would be a little OP probably)

When typical builds of a ship are 55-58 points, that's quite blatantly a fat ship. It has ~20 points of upgrades on it! Also, when a ship can large boost barrel roll and large boost to wherever the **** it wants to be no matter its original starting position, that's quite the defensive upgrade.

I find it hilarious that among other fat turret haters Super Dash is the least hated of the trio. He fires an HLC as a turret and he gets to land on obstacles without any consequence. He's the dumbest, fattest turret in the game. Oh, I landed in range one of something and can't hit him with my HLC? ****, I'm sure done now. Oh wait, I have large ship barrel roll! Let me just flip my pancake halfway across the map. There we go.

Everything I've seen points to 75 being enough for 90% of games.

Well while 75 point fortress may be the dominating factor in the MOV meta I doubt you would get far if you took a single huge ship and put 30 points of upgrades into it. The diversity in the turrets is the support ships and while having 75 points locked away with the 25 point flanker or 2 12 point fillers as sacrificial units is essential for the list. Sure point fortresses are the defining factor in the MOV meta but they are not completely alone.

Dash is a hybrid list from those of Wave 4 where you had turrets, arc dodgers, and swarms. Dash acts as sort of an arc-dodger turret list. So in a way it is like choosing Spock in a game of paper rock scissors. The one type of list Dash is week to is well, surprisingly enough Arc dodgers as they can get in that donut of death with relative ease and can maneuver enough to keep up with dash crazy board barrel rolls.

Everything I've seen points to 75 being enough for 90% of games.

Well while 75 point fortress may be the dominating factor in the MOV meta I doubt you would get far if you took a single huge ship and put 30 points of upgrades into it. The diversity in the turrets is the support ships and while having 75 points locked away with the 25 point flanker or 2 12 point fillers as sacrificial units is essential for the list. Sure point fortresses are the defining factor in the MOV meta but they are not completely alone.

Weirdly enough, a fat turret worth 75 points would still be good if paired with R7 Tarn Mison.

When typical builds of a ship are 55-58 points, that's quite blatantly a fat ship. It has ~20 points of upgrades on it! Also, when a ship can large boost barrel roll and large boost to wherever the **** it wants to be no matter its original starting position, that's quite the defensive upgrade.

I find it hilarious that among other fat turret haters Super Dash is the least hated of the trio. He fires an HLC as a turret and he gets to land on obstacles without any consequence. He's the dumbest, fattest turret in the game. Oh, I landed in range one of something and can't hit him with my HLC? ****, I'm sure done now. Oh wait, I have large ship barrel roll! Let me just flip my pancake halfway across the map. There we go.

This is incredibly misunderstood. Dash suffers HEAVILY when going up against a swarm, high PS mobile ships, or just fast ships in general. Remember you just used one action so you can actually shoot, your second action mods your dice (probably) and you don't get any kind of gunner effect. Soontir Fel is pretty capable of bringing down dash by himself. Even if dash moves through rocks Soontir can just turn away or continue the range 1 engagement.

I like dash because you can actually counter play him

Cp30 sucks on him, he's got no use for gunner, he has a blindspot, he cant evade, he lovres running ptl

He can be BLocked for huge gain

He can be played against and HEAVILY emphasizes maneuvering that primary wep turrets laugh at

Imo dash >>>>>>>>>>>> cheri > han

Imo to be really honest, I see Brobots as an extension of the big fat large ships with gunner capacity, boost and large amounts of damage mitigation. I don't like them any more than any of the fat turrets on the field.

The current swarm IS BBBBZ. Its a meta dependent thing. Tie Swarm isn't the only swarm. BBBBZ concentrates fire better in this meta. The Brobots 3green dice is actually really tough to chew through with just ties.

Honestly, I don't really know whats fun about playing a tournament where you face 6 fat turret lists in a row. Do you find that fun?

I kinda agree with turrets being too predominant now. Surprisingly even after autothrusters. But it's not that surprising considering that you have other lists that would likely win against something like 3 Interceptors. So it becomes unreliable to run the latter and nobody does it. Thats how even after Autothrusters, turrets are viable...

But with IGs i think you are wrong. I mean yes they do belong to the fat ship build but they don't necessarily rely on high PS (not everyone takes VI) and they din't have a turret! They play the game and get no free shots no matter how you maneuver. So you may not like them, but i really they are a different kind of animal than turrets.

Just for the sake of information

17 of the 29 regionals winners documented in Majorjuggler's thread were fat turrets. 12 were not, which is just over 40%. Only 8 of those lists had no large based ships, which would be about 28%.

It is worth pointing out that small based ships have made a bit of a comeback

Okay but how is the ratio of large ships to small ships in numbers and points.

Because if there we see a healthy mix i don't see any problem! Most Large ship builds do have small ships in them after all!

The problems are obvious with the current rules and designs. I wont reiterate what others have clearly laid out already. That said should ordnance really be a counter to "Fat" ships. I believe Glitterstim might be a step in that direction after trying it, N'Dru and Cluster Missiles. 7-8 hits in the first salvo takes quite the chunk out of fat ships HP.

The best idea I have is to make 360 primary weapons just like all other weapons in the game.

They only get +1 attack for Range 1 while the target is in the primary arc. This will go along way to fixing the issue and force players with phat ships and turrets to fly better and not let people get behind them. Right now they don't care because wherever the target is doesn't matter. If they move to range 1 they get shot by an extra dice.

So even if a player spends a few turns to skillfully fly behind a 360 primary weapon ship and get to range 1 on them. There is no penalty for it for letting an enemy outmaneuver you. Make 360 primary weapon ships to only gain the +1 Attack for range 1 in primary arc, and it will now force them to fly differently.

It's a simple fix, that nerfs 360 primary ships only slightly, but will definitely make sense too.

My two cents!

eagletsi

I've recommended this in the past, and there is absolutely not to implement this change.

How does that make sense? It seems pretty arbitrary.

From games, books, and the way missiles work in real life, I've never understood why rockets/missiles have to be in the same range as primary weapon attacks. In the game, it's usually even closer when you consider you have to have a previous target lock. Seeing as you also only have 1 shot with them, wouldn't it make more sense to at least be able to shoot at range 4, then close the gap and engage with primary weapons? Soften up that fatty before you get within return fire range

I like dash because you can actually counter play him

Cp30 sucks on him, he's got no use for gunner, he has a blindspot, he cant evade, he lovres running ptl

He can be BLocked for huge gain

He can be played against and HEAVILY emphasizes maneuvering that primary wep turrets laugh at

Imo dash >>>>>>>>>>>> cheri > han

I like the fact that Dash actually has counter-play options, unlike Han. Lets remember this is still a dogfighting game. The ideal situation should be outmaneuvering and pulling up behind a ship at R1 (with the exception of Fireprays because butt-cannon). Instead, turrets punish you for what would otherwise be superior flying. It gets even worse when you factor in the ease of their ability to arc dodge.

How does that make sense? It seems pretty arbitrary.

Because every other ship only gets +1 dice in their primary. Primary Turrets get to Fire 360 and get +1 even if the target is out of arc as long as they are within range 1. This game is about flying ships. Adding this fix forces the 360 turret ship to fly with more skill in the game. Easy mode is pretty much removed. Now it is also possible for 2, 3 defense ship to survive if they maneuver correctly.

It just makes sense. FFG just has to FAQ this rule and the game instantly becomes more balanced.

"A ship does not gain a range bonus when attacking a ship outside of its firing arc."

Buttcannon still works as intended. Game fixed. Drop the confetti. /thread

"A ship does not gain a range bonus when attacking a ship outside of its firing arc."

Buttcannon still works as intended. Game fixed. Drop the confetti. /thread

If this is the proposed fix it needs to be consistent with secondary weapon Turrets. No range bonus to the attacker while firing at range 1 and no range bonus to the defender while defending at range 3.

The best idea I have is to make 360 primary weapons just like all other weapons in the game.

They only get +1 attack for Range 1 while the target is in the primary arc. This will go along way to fixing the issue and force players with phat ships and turrets to fly better and not let people get behind them. Right now they don't care because wherever the target is doesn't matter. If they move to range 1 they get shot by an extra dice.

So even if a player spends a few turns to skillfully fly behind a 360 primary weapon ship and get to range 1 on them. There is no penalty for it for letting an enemy outmaneuver you. Make 360 primary weapon ships to only gain the +1 Attack for range 1 in primary arc, and it will now force them to fly differently.

It's a simple fix, that nerfs 360 primary ships only slightly, but will definitely make sense too.

My two cents!

eagletsi

This almost the other side of the coin to my suggestion earlier in the thread of granting an extra green when outside of arc at range 2-3 for perfect turrets (Falcon and Decimator). I like your idea, but I still lean toward modifying the green dice for realism and more balance. If shooting behind yourself, it should be easier to dodge rather than the weapon becoming less powerful. I'd be very happy to get an extra green anywhere outside of arc, but I think that goes too far and if at range one then I'm still sticking my face in close range to your turrets and if I get hit it should hurt.

Now, we still have the issue of Vader crew that needs to be addressed too! Limiting him to attacks performed within the primary arc is the way to go. My second choice is to require a hit to use Vader, but I think that nerfs the doom-shuttle too much.