Z95's with Hot Shot Blasters are also highly effective. Just get within range 2 and show the turret how sh*tty it is to get shot out of arc

I took down Han in a couple of turns with 4 Z-95's w/Hot Shots this way.

Offering rules changes won't do much. Trying to figure out ways to beat them (like the OP intended) is better.

I've not heard much comment on my Prince Xizor w/ 5 Z-95's. It is good vs. YT's, but I haven't had much practice vs. Rear Admiral Soontir.

I haven't flown the matchup, but I have a hard time envisioning a scenario where you don't down the Admiral in a couple of rounds of focused fire. Decimators hate swarms and rely on their mobility and Engine Upgrade to avoid them. If you are able to land a block and pour fire into Chirpy, he's toast.

Fel is trickier. Xizor is a threat to him, and I think the Prince can get shots with superior piloting; the problem is going to be getting through all of his tokens. You may want to consider a variant where you run 4 PS3 Black Sun Soldiers with Feedback Array instead of 5 PS1 Binayre Pirates. That would certainly give Fel a lot more headache to deal with.

problem with Zs is that the fattie will pop them with good luck or bad green dice (oh boy)

I think you're better off with 5

someone in the starviper thread made the interesting suggestion of slapping flechette torps on Xizor specifically for **** like soonts and dash or corran etc. You lose the bid, but if you get to place that first fat asteroid it's not that much of a loss imo

Blacksun bugzappers help against soonts and against mini-swarms/predator, but they seem to be a downgrade in every other match-up (less bodies for blocking aggressors, lower PS than talas)

Offering rules changes won't do much. Trying to figure out ways to beat them (like the OP intended) is better.

I've not heard much comment on my Prince Xizor w/ 5 Z-95's. It is good vs. YT's, but I haven't had much practice vs. Rear Admiral Soontir.

Offering rules changes won't do much. Trying to figure out ways to beat them (like the OP intended) is better.

I've not heard much comment on my Prince Xizor w/ 5 Z-95's. It is good vs. YT's, but I haven't had much practice vs. Rear Admiral Soontir.

I think Vader is your real problem. AT starvipers can be a pain for turrets for sure, but there's no getting around that 1 shield.

well, the deci is still shooting at Xizor, which is technically a net win for you since he's basically just killing himself faster than he's killing Xizor (unlucky crits excepted)

I know you can't shunt Vader (he deals damage, not uncanceled results) but you can shunt gunner and abuse thrusters

Offering rules changes won't do much. Trying to figure out ways to beat them (like the OP intended) is better.

I've not heard much comment on my Prince Xizor w/ 5 Z-95's. It is good vs. YT's, but I haven't had much practice vs. Rear Admiral Soontir.

I think Vader is your real problem. AT starvipers can be a pain for turrets for sure, but there's no getting around that 1 shield.

well, the deci is still shooting at Xizor, which is technically a net win for you since he's basically just killing himself faster than he's killing Xizor (unlucky crits excepted)

I know you can't shunt Vader (he deals damage, not uncanceled results) but you can shunt gunner and abuse thrusters

I'm hoping this. With 5 Z's pouring fire on the Decimator and Xizor able to shunt off most damage (hopefully), then the Deci is killing itself faster than Xizor.

I am going with Flechette Torps for Soontir and Corn Hole, but haven't been able to get much practice with it.

Still, though, I think this list has more bite than many first thought.

oh, it does

the only real problem I've had with it is Aggressors. I swear, those robotic green dice must be charmed or something

well that and Soonts + mini-swarm (maybe the blacksuns are the way to go after all...)

havn't tried with flechette torps though

Offering rules changes won't do much. Trying to figure out ways to beat them (like the OP intended) is better.

I've not heard much comment on my Prince Xizor w/ 5 Z-95's. It is good vs. YT's, but I haven't had much practice vs. Rear Admiral Soontir.

I think Vader is your real problem. AT starvipers can be a pain for turrets for sure, but there's no getting around that 1 shield.

well, the deci is still shooting at Xizor, which is technically a net win for you since he's basically just killing himself faster than he's killing Xizor (unlucky crits excepted)

I know you can't shunt Vader (he deals damage, not uncanceled results) but you can shunt gunner and abuse thrusters

I'm hoping this. With 5 Z's pouring fire on the Decimator and Xizor able to shunt off most damage (hopefully), then the Deci is killing itself faster than Xizor.

I am going with Flechette Torps for Soontir and Corn Hole, but haven't been able to get much practice with it.

Still, though, I think this list has more bite than many first thought.

I've been thinking about scum and fell they may have the answers we are looking for. Sable made a great thread on the Hawks and KOsbuild in Texas was a good inspiration. I have a few ideas moving ahead that may have all around counters built in.

I've been thinking about scum and fell they may have the answers we are looking for. Sable made a great thread on the Hawks and KOsbuild in Texas was a good inspiration. I have a few ideas moving ahead that may have all around counters built in.

Which thread? I missed that one.

I recently won the Regionals held in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada with a Whisper/Echo/Academy Pilot squad.

There were 28 players including at least two who came up from the USA. There were only a few turreted ship lists, including a Falcon/Outrider list and two almost identical lists with an Outrider backed up by a pair of B-Wings. Not one turreted list made it to the top eight.

My Phantoms, a TIE swarm, Brobots, and B-Wings seemed to rule that day.

I rarely see turrets even be competitive. I won a Store Championship with an eight TIE swarm.

Dash cannot fit the definition of fat, maybe hefty if you do a push kyle build but he isn't as defensive as Han/Chewie with 3p0 and R2d2 or Luke.

I know if you had gone up against a VI RAC your squad would probably not have done so well (I don't mean my version in particular) simply because Echo and Whisper both fall short to his PS meaning even if you get shots you are getting shot first. A lot of players who do poorly with turrets tend to think because they are fat you can do whatever you want with them.

My game against the swarm had maybe 10 minutes left on the clock, it was a very calculated game and took lots of though into how I was going to engage. Boost in and around is what saved my ship and gave me the victory hands down. If I couldn't have positioned as well as I did RAC would have engaged the fleet too late and soontir would have died early on.

Stormtrooper's comments hearken back to earlier posts made in this thread--Fat turrets are definitely good, but you can find examples of metas in which they're not dominant, and other list styles are flown more effectively. It seems like the metas in the States (though there are other examples outside of the states) are turret heavy--that doesn't mean that turrets should be changed, it just means that players are choosing turrets over other options. Sure there are strategic reasons for that, but don't discount gaming culture and climate of a given location in the choices people make. If they chose differently, the meta would probably change.

- Players choose lists to compete in the play environment in which they find themselves

- Spain, some areas of Canada, Germany, Australia, areas in the UK all have examples of varied lists in the top 8

- Sounds like many areas of the states have an entrenched turret meta (someone in the thread previously stated that many players are playing what they know and have been playing for the past 8 months--perhaps that can help explain why we're seeing so many turrets.)

I've been thinking about scum and fell they may have the answers we are looking for. Sable made a great thread on the Hawks and KOsbuild in Texas was a good inspiration. I have a few ideas moving ahead that may have all around counters built in.

Which thread? I missed that one.

This one:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/178790-brigands-bandits-and-bastards-%E2%80%93-a-closer-look-at-the-scum-hwks/

Just change Engine for Large Ships so that you use the 1-Forward's long + flat edge when bosting forward.

e.g. place it forward-right on the large base when boosting to the right, and you've guessed it, forward left when boosting left.

Oh and remove C3PO from the game altogether.

Just change Engine for Large Ships so that you use the 1-Forward's long + flat edge when bosting forward.

e.g. place it forward-right on the large base when boosting to the right, and you've guessed it, forward left when boosting left.

Oh and remove C3PO from the game altogether.

This.

Or just remove EU from large bases completely...

How should I put this, Simple fixes simply do not fix!

Well I already explained on this thread why EU ban on large ships is a failed proposal in its entirety. Not only does it come in a large ship expansion pack and has the Millennium Falcon as it card art, but also banning it will only be good for nerfing shuttles.

So if you hate those OP shuttles and want to see them nuked from existence! Then sure, ban EU on large based ships. Han wont mind another nerf to one of his competitors.

Wasn't the point of this topic a way to find ways to beat the turrets without having to change the rules? I mean dear god you will never win if instead of trying to make good builds you try to come up with rule changes. You can control your builds and play style not the rules.

That's how the Phantom got nerfed, don't see why we can't just ***** until Turretwing players have to play something other than their pancakes.

You don't honestly believe that the decloak FAQ happened because people complained on the Internet, right?

Possibly, but also thanks to podcasts and other players/play-testers who were saying it was adversely affecting the game. The big question is what intended effect was the nerf supposed to have, and what actual impact did the nerf have to validate the hypothesis.

I've been thinking about scum and fell they may have the answers we are looking for. Sable made a great thread on the Hawks and KOsbuild in Texas was a good inspiration. I have a few ideas moving ahead that may have all around counters built in.

only problem I have with scum HWKs is that turrets just love not giving a **** as they fly into range 3 and still fire out of any horrid pore of their chosing

otherwise, they're hilarious (except for the fact that I can fit moldy/recon/blaster mux with predator + thruster Guri and 3 pirates, but I can't do the same with Palob )

also would not recommend running them without crow. The title is one of the most game changing upgrades in the game, and without it the HWK becomes a spectacularly crappy X-wing just waiting to get diced to death by a PWT or mini-swarm. With it, the HWK becomes Luke Skywalker (the difference is massive) and a surprisingly potent combat ship.

Oh and remove C3PO from the game altogether.

This.

Or just remove EU from large bases completely...

Sure let's just take the blunt bannhammer (that thankfully ffg refuses to use) to cards we don't like...let's just ban the falcon and decimator completely...that will "solve" the problem...lets screw the shuttle and forestay and everyother future large ship because these two piss us off consequences be damned. Lets also straight up ban a card that is exceedingly useful on 1(!) Ship because some people think it's "too useful." Yeah...that's great game design and a great way to keep people playing...

The EU COMES WITH A LARGE SHIP...you are aware of that right?

as long as that remains the case this terrible idea will remain a pipe dream. The company won't include cards with a ship they cannot be used on. Banning cards is a terrible way to "fix" things when there are better ways to handle them..fixing mov scoring to cover HP lost it the suggestions to modify how large ships boost. Those are better ideas than this BS banhammer some of you are calling for. You need to consider what the future effect of your little tantrum will be. Thankfully the company is more mindful of this than some of the posters here.

Wasn't the point of this topic a way to find ways to beat the turrets without having to change the rules? I mean dear god you will never win if instead of trying to make good builds you try to come up with rule changes. You can control your builds and play style not the rules.

That's how the Phantom got nerfed, don't see why we can't just ***** until Turretwing players have to play something other than their pancakes.

You don't honestly believe that the decloak FAQ happened because people complained on the Internet, right?

This forum often thinks it has more influence over things than it actually does...

beating turrets without rule changes ... the best I have is to block them or stress them before they can use that engine upgrade to boost out of arc. this definitely makes it tough when you are playing a list that doesn't have a good blockers or doesn't have a stress mechanic.

captain obvious statement: with 2,600 games imported into ladyluck , the overwhelming (and obvious) conclusion from the data is that, generally, the player who rolls more red dice wins. with those big turret ships you have to strive to keep them arc, and focus fire them down until they die. boosting big ships make this very hard, as they can boost out of firing arc/out of range 3, so shutting down that engine upgrade is key.

EDIT: turrets are doing well at regional top cuts, for sure, but not overwhelmingly so; ~24% of top cut lists from the listjuggler data (21 tourneys, 14,617 points spent)

Another thing to account for is popularity (how often ships are being taken). The data isn't perfect since there are some regionals that only have the top tables reported, but on average, those large base turrets are taken about 22% of the time, we can expect that if all things are equal we can expect those ships to show up about the same at the top tables.There is a small boost from 22% to that 24%.

Because those two numbers are so similar we're in the realm that we can't really define why turrets have a high presence at the top tables. If they were significantly different we'd have something to possibly point to. People naturally gravitate toward "the ships are better", but it can also easily be explained by other things, such as they are just perceived to be better (thru forum chatter, this thread is an example), they're easier and less taxing to fly, people like to play newer stuff, or simply they are cooler ships, etc. It's most likely some of all of these. What percentage of this percentage is simply "the ship is better"?

I didn't mean to sound secretive earlier I was posting from my phone. Here are the squad builds I'm looking into (variants of course) but these are what I have right now.

Wasn't the point of this topic a way to find ways to beat the turrets without having to change the rules? I mean dear god you will never win if instead of trying to make good builds you try to come up with rule changes. You can control your builds and play style not the rules.

That's how the Phantom got nerfed, don't see why we can't just ***** until Turretwing players have to play something other than their pancakes.

You don't honestly believe that the decloak FAQ happened because people complained on the Internet, right?

This forum often thinks it has more influence over things than it actually does...

To add to the above, if all ships are being taken equally (not counting upgrades), those 3 large base turrets make up roughly 18% of ship points of all possible ship types. This is including HWKs, Z-95's, Firesprays, and Y-wings being included twice (for scum). There are a few confounds to using that number so it shouldn't be taken exactly but the idea is we need to control for what we'd expect to be normal, all other things being equal.

So does the potential jump from 18% to 24% in usage account for these ships being "brokenly good"?

Considering all the mentioned other reasons for taking a ship?

Considering our relatively small and incomplete sample?

To add to the above, if all ships are being taken equally (not counting upgrades), those 3 large base turrets make up roughly 18% of ship points of all possible ship types. This is including HWKs, Z-95's, Firesprays, and Y-wings being included twice (for scum). There are a few confounds to using that number so it shouldn't be taken exactly but the idea is we need to control for what we'd expect to be normal, all other things being equal.

So does the potential jump from 18% to 24% in usage account for these ships being "brokenly good"?

Considering all the mentioned other reasons for taking a ship?

Considering our relatively small and incomplete sample?

I feel like usage is different that the person flying it. While there has been an increase in overall usage tournament placement and how well you do is completely based on how you fly. I have killed han with a swarm that I never ran before but I don't think my opponent made the best target choices or action choices at the time.

My point is the builds are overall very good for the tournament setup and even better when in the hands of a smart player. Choosing the right targets and taking advantage of situations is what really makes them shine.

Has anyone also considered the fact that these are long drawn out tournaments that take almost a whole day, so the possibility of making a mental mistake is lessened at the later tables by flying a turret?

I'll be completely honest I flew Echo with a Tie Swarm at my first Store Championship and was doing ok in my top 8 match when I decided to shoot at a Rebel Captive Decimator with Echo first (I had Echo, Howlrunner, and a Swarm Tactics Academy Pilot all at PS8, so I should've chosen the Academy to go first). I then couldn't recloak, and Echo went down quickly after that. Mental mistakes like this made me switch to a Han+3Z support.

I understand it's somehow "easier" but there are builds that work against it. And when I have to fly with my front arc in 4 of my 8 matches at regionals because of autothrusters, 3 of them being Brobots, it's kind of disheartening to have everyone tell me I'm playing something "overpowered" and basically made me feel like I didn't earn my win.

God forbid I fly a character that I've been a fan of since my childhood. That's why I got into this game in the first place. I had to wait 7 months after I started playing to finally get my hands on a Falcon just to leave it in my box because if I bring it out people will give me ugly looks.

Has anyone also considered the fact that these are long drawn out tournaments that take almost a whole day, so the possibility of making a mental mistake is lessened at the later tables by flying a turret?

I'll be completely honest I flew Echo with a Tie Swarm at my first Store Championship and was doing ok in my top 8 match when I decided to shoot at a Rebel Captive Decimator with Echo first (I had Echo, Howlrunner, and a Swarm Tactics Academy Pilot all at PS8, so I should've chosen the Academy to go first). I then couldn't recloak, and Echo went down quickly after that. Mental mistakes like this made me switch to a Han+3Z support.

I understand it's somehow "easier" but there are builds that work against it. And when I have to fly with my front arc in 4 of my 8 matches at regionals because of autothrusters, 3 of them being Brobots, it's kind of disheartening to have everyone tell me I'm playing something "overpowered" and basically made me feel like I didn't earn my win.

God forbid I fly a character that I've been a fan of since my childhood. That's why I got into this game in the first place. I had to wait 7 months after I started playing to finally get my hands on a Falcon just to leave it in my box because if I bring it out people will give me ugly looks.

I don't think anyone is going to give you an ugly look for running something that is really efficient. It can really be a tough build to beat that's for sure but playtesting is important and if you get the smackdown from a falcon build well good chances are you would face one in a tournament. No reason not to fly against them because it's better to know before a tournament how you think you'll do than find out at the actual event.

God forbid I fly a character that I've been a fan of since my childhood. That's why I got into this game in the first place. I had to wait 7 months after I started playing to finally get my hands on a Falcon just to leave it in my box because if I bring it out people will give me ugly looks.

See, that's frustrating. I don't have the rabid loathing of turrets some do, and I can appreciate that people want to fly and play with their favorite characters. I don't despise people who play Han. It's Han freaking Solo. How can you not want to fly that guy at least once?

Now Corran, on the other hand... that guy can just die.

To add to the above, if all ships are being taken equally (not counting upgrades), those 3 large base turrets make up roughly 18% of ship points of all possible ship types. This is including HWKs, Z-95's, Firesprays, and Y-wings being included twice (for scum). There are a few confounds to using that number so it shouldn't be taken exactly but the idea is we need to control for what we'd expect to be normal, all other things being equal.

So does the potential jump from 18% to 24% in usage account for these ships being "brokenly good"?

Considering all the mentioned other reasons for taking a ship?

Considering our relatively small and incomplete sample?

I feel like usage is different that the person flying it. While there has been an increase in overall usage tournament placement and how well you do is completely based on how you fly. I have killed han with a swarm that I never ran before but I don't think my opponent made the best target choices or action choices at the time.

My point is the builds are overall very good for the tournament setup and even better when in the hands of a smart player. Choosing the right targets and taking advantage of situations is what really makes them shine.

Sure, I understand that. My point is that people generalize based on their personal and emotional experience (which is normal). So I'm looking at the data to see if it supports, goes against, or does neither for the claim that large base turrets are over-powered, and if so how drastic.

God forbid I fly a character that I've been a fan of since my childhood. That's why I got into this game in the first place. I had to wait 7 months after I started playing to finally get my hands on a Falcon just to leave it in my box because if I bring it out people will give me ugly looks.

See, that's frustrating. I don't have the rabid loathing of turrets some do, and I can appreciate that people want to fly and play with their favorite characters. I don't despise people who play Han. It's Han freaking Solo. How can you not want to fly that guy at least once?

Now Corran, on the other hand... that guy can just die.

To add to the above, if all ships are being taken equally (not counting upgrades), those 3 large base turrets make up roughly 18% of ship points of all possible ship types. This is including HWKs, Z-95's, Firesprays, and Y-wings being included twice (for scum). There are a few confounds to using that number so it shouldn't be taken exactly but the idea is we need to control for what we'd expect to be normal, all other things being equal.

So does the potential jump from 18% to 24% in usage account for these ships being "brokenly good"?

Considering all the mentioned other reasons for taking a ship?

Considering our relatively small and incomplete sample?

I feel like usage is different that the person flying it. While there has been an increase in overall usage tournament placement and how well you do is completely based on how you fly. I have killed han with a swarm that I never ran before but I don't think my opponent made the best target choices or action choices at the time.

My point is the builds are overall very good for the tournament setup and even better when in the hands of a smart player. Choosing the right targets and taking advantage of situations is what really makes them shine.

Sure, I understand that. My point is that people generalize based on their personal and emotional experience (which is normal). So I'm looking at the data to see if it supports, goes against, or does neither for the claim that large base turrets are over-powered, and if so how drastic.

A larger database will be important, I do expect a shift as we get closer to nationals (if bbbz becomes insanely popular we could see shifts into more mobile ships for example)