Hey everybody! I'd like to start by saying I had a blast at the Ohio Regional yesterday. Players were great, all of my Opponents were professional and fun to play against. I know that some people had less that great dice or made poor moves and cost them important games but overall I think the event went well.

Shoutout to our TO who was more or less doing the entire tournament by himself (had some help at times) and we were only minutes behind schedule.

So here is what I ran.

Rear Admiral Chirppy

-VI

-Rebel Captive

-Gunner

-Yssane

-Engine Upgrade

Soontir Fel

-Push

-RGP

-Autothrusters

-Shield Upgrade

99 Points for Init bid

I want to declare why I ran this before I start what happened. My entire X-wing span can be traced back to a fat(ish) han in wave 2 to Bounty Hunters and High mobile ships for the empire. I eventually ran the Decimator and Phantom during store championships this last season and did great (2 wins and top 4 rest of the events didn't need more wins)

I ran what I knew, and had a build I felt countered a lot of issues I knew I would see. I prepared for Thruster IG's by having VI and Engine upgrade on RAC, Shield is much more reliable on Fel than a stealth device. One PS 10 Mangler Ten and I'm going to have a bad day.

Rebel Captive helps further shut down Push opponents and Fel (limiting his actions to a single evade focus or double stress)

While I won't give a writeup of the entire time here is a brief summary of what I went up against

Round 1 Bye 200-0

Round 2 Dual IG's: Win 200-0

Round 3 Fat Han with 3 Ship support Win 200-0

Round 4 Tie Swarm Win 200-0

Round 5 Fat Lando Blout Tala Win 136-63

With a 936 MOV and perfect record going into the top 8 cut i was in a great seat. Not only had I won my matches I had won them efficiently.

Elim Round 1 Played my Round 3 opponent won only loosing Soontir (but rac was down to two health and it was a great game)

Elim Round 2 Played my Round 5 Opponent and lost. At this point I was going up against 4 fat ships in a row if I had continued. I was exhausted, and a little disheartened that I wasn't going up against anything different. I didn't have the mental strength to hold in and made a series of bad moves that ultimately cost me the game. I can't complain about dice simply because I know I didn't play that game to the best of my ability. I congratulate my opponent on his win and await to hear of the results of the final match.

Here is where I actually started to feel bad about what I had run.

The Top 8 consisted of 7/8 Fat turrets

Only ONE player running Dual IG's made the cut and a great shoutout to him for performing so well against such a hard lineup.

Top 4 Consisted of all Falcons and My lone Decimator against a swarm of fat Rebel Turrets.

Looking back I could see the frustration of my opponents, their losses and what they had to go up against as their records were broken going up against the top players of this event. In their defense there should have been another round. By the end of round 5 we had two undefeateds (myself and another turret) so there should have been one more round of Swiss since two 4-1s didn't make it.

Turrets are clearly dominating the meta right now and in the hands of a skilled player become near indestructible. The inclusion of VI and the Pilot Skill war haven't gone away. It becomes apparent how important having a a turret ship that can boost can be when starring down the barrels of two IG's with Focus/Lock and heavy laser cannons. The use of Fat turrets is where a lot of people are having issues and I sympathize with them. It took a great deal of skill and maneuvering to fly my build as effectively as I did however the end results were the effect the death star had on Aldeeran.

The thing is, on my way home my friend that made top 8 with the dual IG's and myself were trying to figure out ways to best counter any fat list (we used mine as reference) but we couldn't think of anything available that did that without the use of another turret!

We debated about different swarm builds but I pointed out that multiple times my Engine upgrade limited shots from swarms to half or none in some situations. Builds we did think about didn't have the damage output to get through the fatness of rebel builds or suffered too much against any form of RAC. Could get one shot from a double tap of Corran Horn or could compete with other good builds (like BBBBZ)

Gunner/Luke was heavily apparent in all (most maybe) of the top 8 builds. Meaning that they were almost always getting damage through of some kind and negating a lot of damage themselves.

I want to open the floor to anyone that would like to blow steam off about a fat turret heavy meta and anyone having success with other builds in countering turrets. New ideas are welcome and think outside the box. I think it will be a tough shell to crack but when it does break I think it will come tumbling down.

Please keep this positive because I think as a community we can find new ways of approaching upcoming tournaments.

I think there are plenty of other competitors, especially if we include other upgrade-heavy non-turret lists, but too many competitive players are only very confident about their odds with lists they've been playing for several months.

I'm not very good, hadn't played more than a couple games in months, and didn't bring a turret to my regional. Still made top 8 even making tons of mistakes.

There are lists out there that munch on turrets all day, but people read threads like this and think, "Nah, better take my turret."

Imo to be really honest, I see Brobots as an extension of the big fat large ships with gunner capacity, boost and large amounts of damage mitigation. I don't like them any more than any of the fat turrets on the field.

The current swarm IS BBBBZ. Its a meta dependent thing. Tie Swarm isn't the only swarm. BBBBZ concentrates fire better in this meta. The Brobots 3green dice is actually really tough to chew through with just ties.

Honestly, I don't really know whats fun about playing a tournament where you face 6 fat turret lists in a row. Do you find that fun?

The thing is, I don't think the problem is *turrets*, per se...rather, it's the other thing you combined with them.

Engine upgrades.

As you noted, it means the best 'counter' to turrets can be largely ignored, as a 'boost' on a huge ship is INSANELY overpowered. It gives the Shuttle the ability to keep up with the fastest fighter in the galaxy. It gives turret ships the ability to slip entirely out of arcs. It's engine upgrade, ON a large-base ship, that is the source of the problem.

I've seen a suggestion on the forums that might help - nerf the boost in somewhat the same way FFG nerfed the barrel roll on large ships. Not as easy to do, and I'm not sure how big a difference it would really make, but it's easy enough to do:

• When a large base ship boosts 'forward', place the 4-straight template beside the ship and just move it down the template to the end. Net result is that the ship's new "back" line sits exactly where its "front" line sat.
• When a large ship boosts to a 'bank', instead of placing the template in the center of the ship, place it on the far opposite corner. IE., when banking to the left, place the template in the far right corner of the ship's front, and move the ship to the end of it using the far right corner of the back as the end point of the template.

Barring 'engine upgrade' entirely on large ships (which I can't imagine FFG would do, given the upgrade still only comes in one of the large-ship expansions), I don't know what better could be done than that.

Imo to be really honest, I see Brobots as an extension of the big fat large ships with gunner capacity, boost and large amounts of damage mitigation. I don't like them any more than any of the fat turrets on the field.

The current swarm IS BBBBZ. Its a meta dependent thing. Tie Swarm isn't the only swarm. BBBBZ concentrates fire better in this meta. The Brobots 3green dice is actually really tough to chew through with just ties.

Honestly, I don't really know whats fun about playing a tournament where you face 6 fat turret lists in a row. Do you find that fun?

No and I think it is what took out the last of my energy in the final matches. Last year there were a ton of turrets but their rankings in the top 16 weren't great and even less in the top 8. So while they were there it wasn't the end all for a tournament.

Edit: I do know about BBBBZ and one of my friends also played that but was one of the 4-1s that didn't make the cut (modified win).

We had a discussion during break that every squad he went up against had an arc Dodger or Turret ship that made damage difficult. The YT 1300 gets a break having 2 agi dice at range 3 if he is running for a turn. a correct call of 0 evades blocks 2/3 damage on the first shot and it wouldn't' be surprising to stop at least half of the rest of the damage coming in if dice are average. having 3 talas pumping in dice to b's can bring one down a turn pretty fast.

I think that much of what annoys Turretwing haters such as myself about Turretwing isn't that a certain list archetype dominates, it's that the dominating list archetype neuters what we enjoy about the game, that is manuevering your ships, having to maneuver in such a way that you don't bump/stress yourself so that you can perform actions, etc.

It also creates these annoying nuanceless binary situations where you have 2 B wings left and your opponent has their fat turret left. You've lost. Or your opponent has a single health left on their Falcon and time gets called. I recently played a Turretwing list for the first time, it was 55 HLC Super Dash with 3 A Wings. I faced a Chewy HLC Outrider Leebo build. He conga lined his ships in a circle around the board, got some damage on my Dash. I focused down the Falcon, realized that I had only lost an A Wing and half health on Dash and was up on points, and just blocked his Leebo for the remaining 30 minutes of the game until time was called because I knew his turret could just kill mine in 2 attacks. Since my pancake had large ship boost and barrel roll and moved after his pancake, he had no hope of staying at range 2+ of my Dash to shoot at it with his HLC. So this entire game was decided by him getting back luck and losing in the list building phase by going HLC instead of Mangler, a single upgrade. That's stupid.

If this game went back to swarms and B wing spams dominating it would be more enjoyable. Yes, the ideal lists would just be as many ships as possible, or the firepower and health of that many ships compressed into fewer ships (like BBBB(Z) lists), but maneuvering would be of actual importance, and taking actions would be of actual importance. You'd also be able to field a wider variety of things like M3-A's and stuff.

FFG went in the right direction by nerfing the Phantom and the meta is in a better spot than Wave 5's was, but it still needs work. Wave 7 will not change the meta in the slightest. Wave 6 has only added IG's into the meta.

Imo to be really honest, I see Brobots as an extension of the big fat large ships with gunner capacity, boost and large amounts of damage mitigation. I don't like them any more than any of the fat turrets on the field.

The current swarm IS BBBBZ. Its a meta dependent thing. Tie Swarm isn't the only swarm. BBBBZ concentrates fire better in this meta. The Brobots 3green dice is actually really tough to chew through with just ties.

Honestly, I don't really know whats fun about playing a tournament where you face 6 fat turret lists in a row. Do you find that fun?

Imo to be really honest, I see Brobots as an extension of the big fat large ships with gunner capacity, boost and large amounts of damage mitigation. I don't like them any more than any of the fat turrets on the field.

The current swarm IS BBBBZ. Its a meta dependent thing. Tie Swarm isn't the only swarm. BBBBZ concentrates fire better in this meta. The Brobots 3green dice is actually really tough to chew through with just ties.

Honestly, I don't really know whats fun about playing a tournament where you face 6 fat turret lists in a row. Do you find that fun?

People start adding brobots into the things they dislike when they started winning. If you add 4-5 more list archetypes to the winner's circle people will hate those as well.

I agree with this, Brobots aren't impossible to beat and even in the hands of skilled players have obvious flaws in design that can be exploited. There are a variety of builds that can bring down Dual Ig's practice against them is the key, they are actually quite predictable ships once you know how they run.

I think that much of what annoys Turretwing haters such as myself about Turretwing isn't that a certain list archetype dominates, it's that the dominating list archetype neuters what we enjoy about the game, that is manuevering your ships, having to maneuver in such a way that you don't bump/stress yourself so that you can perform actions, etc.

It also creates these annoying nuanceless binary situations where you have 2 B wings left and your opponent has their fat turret left. You've lost. Or your opponent has a single health left on their Falcon and time gets called.

If this game went back to swarms and B wing spams dominating it would be more enjoyable. Yes, the ideal lists would just be as many ships as possible, or the firepower and health of that many ships compressed into fewer ships (like BBBB(Z) lists), but maneuvering would be of actual importance, and taking actions would be of actual importance. You'd also be able to field a wider variety of things like M3-A's and stuff.

Stating it for the hundredth time won't make it true.

Imo to be really honest, I see Brobots as an extension of the big fat large ships with gunner capacity, boost and large amounts of damage mitigation. I don't like them any more than any of the fat turrets on the field.

The current swarm IS BBBBZ. Its a meta dependent thing. Tie Swarm isn't the only swarm. BBBBZ concentrates fire better in this meta. The Brobots 3green dice is actually really tough to chew through with just ties.

Honestly, I don't really know whats fun about playing a tournament where you face 6 fat turret lists in a row. Do you find that fun?

I think. sort of along the lines your are getting at, that IG 88 and updated Firesprays, as well as tournament scoring, have moved the meta less toward turrets specifically and more toward lists centered around large bases in general. There are still a couple of small small super ships (Horn, Fel) that are seen consistently and can have a list built around them, but beyond that, small ship centric lists just aren't as competitive nor as dominant as the large ship lists.

There's a lot of variety among the large based ships winning and small base ship lists have snuck in occasionally, but the game is definitely dominated by large bases right now. If there were a small ship list that had an overall advantage over those types of lists consistently, a good player would have found one by now, but there just isn't one that holds the current consistent advantages that the large base lists do.

Imo to be really honest, I see Brobots as an extension of the big fat large ships with gunner capacity, boost and large amounts of damage mitigation. I don't like them any more than any of the fat turrets on the field.

The current swarm IS BBBBZ. Its a meta dependent thing. Tie Swarm isn't the only swarm. BBBBZ concentrates fire better in this meta. The Brobots 3green dice is actually really tough to chew through with just ties.

Honestly, I don't really know whats fun about playing a tournament where you face 6 fat turret lists in a row. Do you find that fun?

I think. sort of along the lines your are getting at, that IG 88 and updated Firesprays, as well as tournament scoring, have moved the meta less toward turrets specifically and more toward lists centered around large bases in general. There are still a couple of small small super ships (Horn, Fel) that are seen consistently and can have a list built around them, but beyond that, small ship centric lists just aren't as competitive nor as dominant as the large ship lists.

There's a lot of variety among the large based ships winning and small base ship lists have snuck in occasionally, but the game is definitely dominated by large bases right now. If there were a small ship list that had an overall advantage over those types of lists consistently, a good player would have found one by now, but there just isn't one that holds the current consistent advantages that the large base lists do.

Maybe not even large bases. Maybe just large numbers of upgrades.

Curious as to a couple of your upgrade choices.

Why not include Vader on the Deci (perhaps dropping Captive or Isard)? Are you playing Shield Upgrade on Fel due to the prevalence of Vader?

I'm doing fairly well with my dual ion IGs against rebel turret builds (I win most of my matches). I actually shifted the meta a bit in my area, so now people use more decimators (with rebel captive making maneuvers with my IG a pain). Now I have to switch my tactics again, mostly to include mangler cannons.

The only thing that troubles me is that while I am happy that I can field a Scum build that is competitive (without turrets), I regret that it includes few or no small ship alternatives that consistently win against popular archtypes. I hope that the wave 7 ordiance will fix that, including options that can hurt 2 ship builds (even if it means hurting my own list).

I agree with macar also being in the same boat, running RAC+Fel.

So far I won 2/3 tournaments I attended with that list.

I also agree with xanderf, EU is the main problem.

Being able to boost with a Big ship, well it's HUGE (pun intended).

Especially on PS8 or 10 to avoid half or more of your opponents squad which basically neuters swarms.

The only suggestion I have, don't let big ships use Engine Upgrade, make it small base only.

Don't think it will ever happen though.

Curious as to a couple of your upgrade choices.

Why not include Vader on the Deci (perhaps dropping Captive or Isard)? Are you playing Shield Upgrade on Fel due to the prevalence of Vader?

I mentioned the shield on things like Ten but shield also gives me the option to take a single crit over allowing a reroll from gunner/luke.

I look at it this way. If you loose shield you also loose only 1 health. If you loose stealth you loose 1 upgrade and your initial hull value, essentially stealth isn't cost effective for what happens when you loose it.

Also my upgrades on my decimator maximized what he is built to do. Vader is almost redundant due to RACS natural crit ability. If I had vader in any of my matches I know I would have lost. Vader on a decimator is a situational upgrade and my upgrades were consistent through every match I played in.

I think that much of what annoys Turretwing haters such as myself about Turretwing isn't that a certain list archetype dominates, it's that the dominating list archetype neuters what we enjoy about the game, that is manuevering your ships, having to maneuver in such a way that you don't bump/stress yourself so that you can perform actions, etc.

It also creates these annoying nuanceless binary situations where you have 2 B wings left and your opponent has their fat turret left. You've lost. Or your opponent has a single health left on their Falcon and time gets called.

If this game went back to swarms and B wing spams dominating it would be more enjoyable. Yes, the ideal lists would just be as many ships as possible, or the firepower and health of that many ships compressed into fewer ships (like BBBB(Z) lists), but maneuvering would be of actual importance, and taking actions would be of actual importance. You'd also be able to field a wider variety of things like M3-A's and stuff.

The suggestion that turret maneuvers don't matter is, as always, complete nonsense. If I play 4x and you play a poorly-maneuvered Heaver World's list I'll win pretty easily. Maneuvers matter.

Stating it for the hundredth time won't make it true.

You don't have to consider getting things in arc, thus you can arc dodge willy nilly and have a shot anyways with your dumb turret. Yes, it's hyperbole to say that maneuvers don't matter at all with a turret. They matter of course, but far, far less than manuevering your normal arc based ship does.

FFG went in the right direction by nerfing the Phantom and the meta is in a better spot than Wave 5's was, but it still needs work. Wave 7 will not change the meta in the slightest. Wave 6 has only added IG's into the meta.

Bold prediction, especially since we don't know a lot of the cards in the packs. Bossk alone seems to be good Chewie, Leebo hate.

And honestly, looking at the top 8s in general, the field is beginning to diversify. But, as I have observed, it is the end of the world if a turret wins anything.

Imo to be really honest, I see Brobots as an extension of the big fat large ships with gunner capacity, boost and large amounts of damage mitigation. I don't like them any more than any of the fat turrets on the field.

The current swarm IS BBBBZ. Its a meta dependent thing. Tie Swarm isn't the only swarm. BBBBZ concentrates fire better in this meta. The Brobots 3green dice is actually really tough to chew through with just ties.

Honestly, I don't really know whats fun about playing a tournament where you face 6 fat turret lists in a row. Do you find that fun?

I think. sort of along the lines your are getting at, that IG 88 and updated Firesprays, as well as tournament scoring, have moved the meta less toward turrets specifically and more toward lists centered around large bases in general. There are still a couple of small small super ships (Horn, Fel) that are seen consistently and can have a list built around them, but beyond that, small ship centric lists just aren't as competitive nor as dominant as the large ship lists.

There's a lot of variety among the large based ships winning and small base ship lists have snuck in occasionally, but the game is definitely dominated by large bases right now. If there were a small ship list that had an overall advantage over those types of lists consistently, a good player would have found one by now, but there just isn't one that holds the current consistent advantages that the large base lists do.

Maybe not even large bases. Maybe just large numbers of upgrades.

Sure, and the ships that can take the most upgrades (a least in terms of useful variety) are the large bases. Either way, I don't see the trend changing anytime soon to allow large numbers of small ships a significant place in the competitive scene.

FFG went in the right direction by nerfing the Phantom and the meta is in a better spot than Wave 5's was, but it still needs work. Wave 7 will not change the meta in the slightest. Wave 6 has only added IG's into the meta.

Bold prediction, especially since we don't know a lot of the cards in the packs. Bossk alone seems to be good Chewie, Leebo hate.

And honestly, looking at the top 8s in general, the field is beginning to diversify. But, as I have observed, it is the end of the world if a turret wins anything.

Not really. Ordnance boats will still be sub-par unless there is another ordnance fix card in there. K Wing will change nothing. Punisher will change nothing.

Let's say the Defender gets all green banks with the TIE only card. It's still not as good as a post nerf super phantom.

Kirasdayshcjjaskfnsdfxz will be a slightly/moderately better X Wing. Still will not be able to hold a candle to 'Super' X Wing ships.

Hound's Tooth at best will have a slight effect on the meta like Scum Firesprays do. Still pretty much not at all. Maybe in some funky troll build where you fly a swarm of Tacticians lol.

I look at it this way. If you loose shield you also loose only 1 health. If you loose stealth you loose 1 upgrade and your initial hull value, essentially stealth isn't cost effective for what happens when you loose it.

Also my upgrades on my decimator maximized what he is built to do. Vader is almost redundant due to RACS natural crit ability. If I had vader in any of my matches I know I would have lost. Vader on a decimator is a situational upgrade and my upgrades were consistent through every match I played in.

Are there a lot of people flying the Fel & Deci in your meta? There is a lot here in Southern New England...sometimes it is coming down to who can use Vader twice in a turn on Fel first.

With that said, I do like gunner, captive and Isard over dropping one of them for Vader for any match that does not have Fel (though, right now, your're almost certain to play 2 or more opponents with Fel).

If it's large bases in general then the problem is not the large base itself, which is usually an inherent disadvantage, but the point forting. Go up against a heavy ship or go up against three smaller ships and do the same damage and you'll either kill two of the three or not kill the heavy. In addition to the victory distortion this has a potent psychological effect.

In essence, the timed game is biased heavily in favour of a minimum of ships. Large ships can best take advantage of this.

If it's large bases in general then the problem is not the large base itself, which is usually an inherent disadvantage, but the point forting. Go up against a heavy ship or go up against three smaller ships and do the same damage and you'll either kill two of the three or not kill the heavy. In addition to the victory distortion this has a potent psychological effect.

In essence, the timed game is biased heavily in favour of a minimum of ships. Large ships can best take advantage of this.

IG 88 is a straight up discount on a small base fighter for those stats, before even including excellent abilities or upgrades.

So is it turrets that are making you upset, or the "Fat Falcon" that is the problem? Other than ion, aren't turrets range 1 or 2? What if they just changed the Falcon's primary weapon range to 1or 2, would that help at all?

Imo to be really honest, I see Brobots as an extension of the big fat large ships with gunner capacity, boost and large amounts of damage mitigation. I don't like them any more than any of the fat turrets on the field.

The current swarm IS BBBBZ. Its a meta dependent thing. Tie Swarm isn't the only swarm. BBBBZ concentrates fire better in this meta. The Brobots 3green dice is actually really tough to chew through with just ties.

Honestly, I don't really know whats fun about playing a tournament where you face 6 fat turret lists in a row. Do you find that fun?

I think. sort of along the lines your are getting at, that IG 88 and updated Firesprays, as well as tournament scoring, have moved the meta less toward turrets specifically and more toward lists centered around large bases in general. There are still a couple of small small super ships (Horn, Fel) that are seen consistently and can have a list built around them, but beyond that, small ship centric lists just aren't as competitive nor as dominant as the large ship lists.

There's a lot of variety among the large based ships winning and small base ship lists have snuck in occasionally, but the game is definitely dominated by large bases right now. If there were a small ship list that had an overall advantage over those types of lists consistently, a good player would have found one by now, but there just isn't one that holds the current consistent advantages that the large base lists do.

Maybe not even large bases. Maybe just large numbers of upgrades.

Sure, and the ships that can take the most upgrades (a least in terms of useful variety) are the large bases. Either way, I don't see the trend changing anytime soon to allow large numbers of small ships a significant place in the competitive scene.

Don't you think 4-hog builds are fairly competitive? They've certainly faired well when people bring them. I think people just don't own 4 Y's.

Fat.

That's the problem.

Turrets, on their own, remove the ability for an enemy ship to outmaneuver you... except for Autothrusters which re-add it.

Engine Upgrades, when used with Turrets, allow for much larger maneuvers and a bit of arc-dodging.

The problem is the ability to make these ships unkillable within the time-limit.

If the time limit were longer, or non-existant for the state to which the game was balanced, the possibility of killing a Fat Turret re-enters the world.

If the scoring system were able to better predict this, and lessened the ability of lists to play for time by sheer durability, then we see Fat Turrets doing less well.

The other form of Durability is often paired with Fat Turrets, allowing for an asymetric fleet that has fewer weaknesses. High-mobility ships with high amounts of Damage Mitigation (Whisper, Red Baron, Corran Horn) can no-sell a TIE Swarm, which had a chance at Trimming the Fat otherwise.