Is it the Neb-B that's the best rebel ship or is it the Salvation? The ship is nice but feels pretty narrow when all it wants to do is use the one title. Prior to wave 2, I'd have to favor the Whale at the current moment because of its ability to do just about everything you want it to do and do it well.

This post renews hope in using a Neb B. I like both salvation and Yarvaris titles. But I'm having a hard time deciding which one I want to use along side my AFII

Depends on the AFII I think. If you go Paragon on an A, go with the Salvation. The combined firepower there is terrifying. Put Advanced Armaments on the Paragon, XI7s on the Salvation, and just dare your opponent to take Advanced Gunnery.

If you're going with the Gallant Haven on a B, Yavaris is the obvious choice since you're obviously going squadron heavy (if you're not, why the hell are you talking these titles?!). Nab Adar Tallon and throw him on the Gallant Haven. That way you can activate a squadron with the Gallant Haven, move and attack with the squadron, and then activate again with Yavaris for the double tap (triple tap if you include the first activation)! Just imagine that with a B-Wing. You're pumping out 3 blue and 3 black in a single turn from a freaking fighter.

I know what squadrons that I want to use with the Gallant Haven , what squadrons fit best or work best for Paragon ?

Talon on the Non-Yarvis ship allows you to send it in, unactivate with Tallon, then Yarvis activate it for maximum possible punishment.

I don't believe in Redemption.

We didn't ask you to make any religious confessions here.

Is it the Neb-B that's the best rebel ship or is it the Salvation? The ship is nice but feels pretty narrow when all it wants to do is use the one title. Prior to wave 2, I'd have to favor the Whale at the current moment because of its ability to do just about everything you want it to do and do it well.

Rebel fleets transform in the transition from 300 to 400 points. You get a lot more flexibility, and are able to pack in dual Nebs AND other elements comfortably, which greatly increase rebel threat. Imperial Threat doesn't increase nearly as much, as two VSDs are still as difficult to fight head-on as one VSD for most matchups.

Really, what is 'good' and what is not changes dramatically between 300 to 400 pts. At 400, CR90s for example are solely used for command ship duties with Tantive or Leia, while Neb-Bs are your main muscle and AF2s the general problem solvers/tankers..

It is pointless to debate what gains more from the increase to 400pts within the current line-up. Both sides are gaining 60-100% more options to accompany the bump up to 400.

Personally I always felt the Nebulon was a nice middle ground between the Mk.II and the Corvette. The command is just enough to offer flexibility while also granting token loading, the dice are somewhat weak but the ship is reasonably priced, and it has just enough hull, shields and engineering to hang in there for a good few beatings. Everybody complains about the side arcs, to which I respond "cover them!" Make the sides unattractive or difficult targets to reach by covering them with ships to provide obstruction, or simply keep rotating to keep it as a non-option or at the very least an unattractive one.

Also why all the hate for the Redemption? It's a bit pricey but rewards planning ahead for damage (which will inevitably happen) and sure does beat out putting Engine Techs on individual ships. While it's not always ideal to keep ships super close together in formation it's not hard to use Redemption to make repairs that much more attractive an option.

It is pointless to debate what gains more from the increase to 400pts within the current line-up. Both sides are gaining 60-100% more options to accompany the bump up to 400.

A lot of us are playing at 400 points and many are playing at more than 400 points in team games. I've found the extra points really does change the game. An example would be squadrons- at 400 points forming 2-3 wave of fighters is viable- suddenly the must have initiative drive isn't as important because losing your first wave of fighters to an alpha strike of Fel/Howlrunner/Tie Advanced isn't such a big deal because a couple of Nebulons and six x-wings are the counter attack.

In fact I think the initiative is possibly one of the bigger changes to the game as more ships get involved- It's less more important in bigger games than smaller ones because your force can absorb the first attack more easily. It's not unimportant, but it's less worrying to be the second player. Just think how much more important initiative was at 180 points.

Anyway, that's getting away from the point- support ships are pretty handy at higher points levels whether they're sniping off a few shields, disabling defences, handing out command tokens, boosting stats or just giving your commander a safer place to sit than the ship on the front line.

Is it the Neb-B that's the best rebel ship or is it the Salvation? The ship is nice but feels pretty narrow when all it wants to do is use the one title. Prior to wave 2, I'd have to favor the Whale at the current moment because of its ability to do just about everything you want it to do and do it well.

Rebel fleets transform in the transition from 300 to 400 points. You get a lot more flexibility, and are able to pack in dual Nebs AND other elements comfortably, which greatly increase rebel threat. Imperial Threat doesn't increase nearly as much, as two VSDs are still as difficult to fight head-on as one VSD for most matchups.

Really, what is 'good' and what is not changes dramatically between 300 to 400 pts. At 400, CR90s for example are solely used for command ship duties with Tantive or Leia, while Neb-Bs are your main muscle and AF2s the general problem solvers/tankers..

It is much easier to concentrate the smaller ships on one part of the line if we're facing victories. That said, if it's a bunch of gladiators it's a different story, so maybe we should think of it as light/heavy fleets rather than just imperial/rebel, and then sub divide based on general ranges and number of squadrons etc.

We all played the first few core set games and experienced the insane fragility of the Nebulon B Frigate's sides. For a lot of players (myself included) this lead to me sidelining the ship as I always felt the CR90 got more done over the course of the game.

Now that I've played more 300s, and especially more 400s, I can see the true power of the Nebulon.

Salvation is a monster. For only 13 points more (Salv + X17s), it outguns any ship in the game currently at Range 3, and outguns all but a VSD2 at Range 2! Having that 'each crit does an additional damage' means your red dice are just damage beasts.

Normal Red Dice: 2x Crit, 2x Hit, 1x Double Hit, 1x Acc, 2x Blank

Salvation Red Dice: 2x HitCrit, 2xHit, 1x Double Hit, 1x Acc, 2x Blank

This means each Red dice is worth .75 expected damage, each Salvation die is worth 1 expected damage. Since blue dice are also worth .75 expected damage, this means:

Neb (any range): 2.25 expected damage (3 if you concentrate)

Salvation (any range): 3 expected damage (4 if you concentrate)

VSDII at range 2: 4.5 expected damage (5.25 if concentrated).

That's damned cost effective, considering that Salvation costs perhaps 1/2 to 2/3rds of a loaded VSDII. Not to mention Evade is crazy effective at long range, or with Mon Mothma at medium (IMO, Mon Mothma is best rebel commander by far right now. She saves you way more damage than wussy ol' Motti ever would save the Imps.)

Though I like Salvation a lot, I think the comparison is a bit off against a VSD. The Neb suffers a lot through the weak side arc, which you cannot expose to anything without a good chance for regrets. If you decide to steam at speed one, there is little chance for your Neb to affect any squadron fights, so it all comes down to the question if spending 13 pts more (which is not the top, as raymus/intel officers would add up nicely..) is worth an additional 0.75 (1 with cf) average damage. Still to keep in mind that you will be in med range in one round even with slow steaming at speed 1, except when the VSD is fully stopped, and that stopping yourself is the worst thing to do if you intent to use tokens.

I am not saying there is no advantage to Salvation, I just dont see the reason for any hype. It is still a ship that will only be able to use one of its two attacks as there is no weapons team and you dont want to expose side arcs in 9/10 situations. If used in a sniper role, I probably deny myself the use of AA other than for self defense. All for 3-4 average damage a turn, for which I would need an additional upgrade (intel) to reliably deliver it past the enemies tokens. Seems ok to me in some situations, but not that great, tbh?

/edit: Changed Yavaris to Salvation title. My bad.

The Yavaris title is a fighter superiority tool first. I walk in slowly with my squadron coverage. If you don't engage me, I eventually have Luke or B-wings attacking your ships twice a turn. We're talking medium range plus distance 1, which is a little under long range, but not by much. If you engage my squadrons then Wedge gets a nice double tap on who ever you sent in. Because I'm keeping my fighters back, rhymer and chiraneu don't really scare me as I'm properly screened. Rhymer won't have an open windo to jump to until we're so close it ceases to matter.

Well an interesting thread but from my experience being able to hang back and get the Salvation Sniper shots off is not my game. I still prefer the faster Corvettes or the shield beast Frigate. Just not enough points at 300 for me to fit it into my tactics for my play style.

Will be keeping my eyes open for good ideas though.

We can't really forget that raymus affects everyevery command, you just give him to salvation specifically for cf.

He also gives you repair 5, The ability to spring from speed 1 to 3 and vice versa (or change speed over two turns for one command), and gives you +1 squadron

The squadron side of salvation isn't incredibly important unless you can fire at ships with the front and squadrons out the side so just stick him in a refit.

Personally been thoroughly unimpressed with the offensive output of the cr90-A and would use a neb every time over it outside of MM.

I'm coming around on the Neb B. Now, if I can keep from making some sort of catastrophic mistake in my games, I might even see what they can do....

The thing that is great about the Salvation title is that it dramatically increases the damage variance of your dice: 3/8 of the faces deal two damage, and at long range.

While the average damage is the same as black die, this uber red die has one significant advantage, it has an accuracy symbol. This reduces the ability of the opponent to mitigate / reduce damage, which leads to a higher amount of damage dealt after token mitigation. There is a reason that black dice don't have accuracy symbols...

So, add in an Intel officer x17s, or maybe even H9s, and you can cause serious pain on a great roll.

Or more simply, it is too risky to ignore the threat of its front cannon.

I think it's just for me, the realizing that a pair of Neb-Bs driving slow is far, far stronger than twice the value of a single Neb. With 6 red dice forward, you have a real chance in two turns of killing a VSD head-on, as opposed to just getting run down and massacred. It also protects your flanks a little by having a pair.

I agree, but I do think the 3 speed has its place with the Neb B. It is the only ship capable of big turns at high speeds, which I think is telling. Creep up on your opponent, then speed up and turn around, then slow back down.

Finally, I think we should mention the expected damage from a Cf token + command Salvation is 5, due to the reroll, with a 62.5% likelihood of an accuracy.

This compares to 3.75 on a naked Neb B.

Edited to add:

This is enough to get land a hit on the hull of every Imperial ship, with x17s limiting redirect. And you can expect to roll at least one critical hit. So either you luck out and get an accuracy to block the brace, or you use Intel officer to burn the brace. Either way, it can be a crippling shot.

you can't intel with raymus aboard, sadly

but because the bonus of Salvation doesn't actually deal with critical damage (it just doubles the damage of every critical result) I think you'd be fine running h9s, hitting the brace, and just brute forcing your way through shields. Every expected 5 damage shot becomes 4 damage and wipes out a side's worth of shield's per shot (though the damage will be spread, dropping a VSD down to 1 shield on the hit side and redirected side at best). You won't kill a VSD by yourself, but you will enable your gunline to do it much faster.

x17s are something I'd run more for General D's crits or for indirectly supporting your squadrons by opening up a weakpoint for them to pile in on

Am I the only one constantly running into trouble with my Nebulons? Those 1 shield flanks always betray me at some point in.

Am I the only one constantly running into trouble with my Nebulons? Those 1 shield flanks always betray me at some point in.

nope, the shield 1 flanks screw us all over

I simply don't think the CR-90 is much better off. Redirect is sweet, but I think we overvalue it on that squishy ship because of how much we wish the Neb had it

The double brace I found have been quite excellent at weathering one "dun goofed" volley, so I believe the neb takes a bit more punishment (esp with being able to repair command away hull damage) and it hasn't been so bad (though I did have one hilarious moment where a full health Salvation got one-shot by a VSD - 2 rolling hithit + hithit + hit + acc + acc + hit)

they're hard to fly, but I'm sure we'll get the hang of it

The Neb B is the one rebel ship I am excited to try out. I've played exclusively Imperials so far, but I really like the idea of a Salvation Neb B off to the side taking sniper shots and the the rest of the force menacing from a different angle.

Well an interesting thread but from my experience being able to hang back and get the Salvation Sniper shots off is not my game. I still prefer the faster Corvettes or the shield beast Frigate. Just not enough points at 300 for me to fit it into my tactics for my play style.

Will be keeping my eyes open for good ideas though.

You might change your tune when you drop a pants load of red dice on a VSDs doorstep with one.

My roommate went from saying he just couldn't find a good reason to field them to wondering why he hadn't thought of it before.

imo, part of what makes Nebs so initially difficult to appreciated is their well-roundedness (well..not on their side shields )

It's much easier to come to grips with ships when they're specialized (Carrier VSDs, engine tech demolishers, even fatties can be speced for gallant haven squadron support or Paragon kicker of all ass) and I think the Wave 1 titles helped iron out specialized niches for the neb (Salvation for pew pew, Yavaris for squadron related carnage) which work well alongside their solid long range armaments/effective anti-squadron batteries

Nebs are high skill, high efficiency ships. In the optimal situation (pointed at enemy, long range, maybe a gun upgrade or salvation) they perform every bit as well as a VSD, for 60% of the points. That's a crazy level of efficiency.

However, one mistake and they will go up in flames. But you won't find that kind of cost-to-ranged-firepower ratio anywhere else in the rebels at the moment, and it's your only chance of knocking out a GSD in one turn, or a VSD in two.

Remember, as good as AF2s are, the Neb-Bs have the same firepower when employed correctly, for 20 points less. Two AF2s may be survivable, but having 3 Nebs is too in it's own way...

While they can put out similar damage I find the AF much more manuverable then the Neb-B when it comes to it's practical ability to maneuver. Since it's firepower and defenses is overly geared towards it's narrow front arc it simply isn't free to move as much as the more side arc oriented AF is, even though they are of the same speed.

Nebs are high skill, high efficiency ships. In the optimal situation (pointed at enemy, long range, maybe a gun upgrade or salvation) they perform every bit as well as a VSD, for 60% of the points. That's a crazy level of efficiency.

However, one mistake and they will go up in flames. But you won't find that kind of cost-to-ranged-firepower ratio anywhere else in the rebels at the moment, and it's your only chance of knocking out a GSD in one turn, or a VSD in two.

Remember, as good as AF2s are, the Neb-Bs have the same firepower when employed correctly, for 20 points less. Two AF2s may be survivable, but having 3 Nebs is too in it's own way...

This. And clearly I'm not at that skill level yet! I tried out a triple-titled Neb B list + B-wings against 2 VSD's + Rhymer, and didn't do so well (tabled with one very damaged VSD and no damage on the other).

My key mistakes (for learning purposes):

1) Tried to maneuver too much. I knew my opponent would pair his VSD's so I tried to swing the squadron around the flanks. My movement only took my Nebs out of play for many turns (especially Salvation) and ended up allowing the VSD's to focus on Yavaris early. In addition some asteroid fields kept getting in my way and reducing my 3/4 firepower down to 2/3. I would have done much better just jousting and going straight at them.

2) Focused too much on offense. I kept issuing CF commands, in the hopes of taking down a VSD quickly before my ships went down. The extra dice wasn't that significant, and I would have done much better issuing engineering commands (to use Redemption's ability) and keeping my front/side shields up.

3) Chose the wrong fighter escorts. B-wings pack a punch, but are too slow to achieve ideal firing positions when needed. And they go down quickly to concentrated fire. I would have been better served using A-wings or X-wings to keep the enemy off my ships.

I'm still a believer in the concept. Time to refine and revise!