no other ship can reward or punish you as much for your skill in using them.

I'm not sure if it is this or some metas being more ahead of the curve than others based on reading the thread. I guess time will tell.

Corvettes can't withstand heavy concentrated fire when on their attack run. Because they're 2 evades and a redirect, a massive VSD volley at medium range (where Corvettes should be due to their reliance on blue dice in both versions) means they're going to go down fast. Just one accuracy and you can't even use Redirect, meaning 6 damage kills you dead.

In a head on engagement, Neb Bs are far tougher. 3 shields in front with two braces means you're probably not going to lock out the brace or damage hull in one attack. It'll take two dead minimum from even the strongest of arcs. You'll have more firepower at Range 3 even. With Salvation, you'll have FAR more firepower.

There's a lot of uses for Nebs. They just have an obvious single vulnerability that you must prepare against. Vs Demolisher, you'll just be peice-trading.

Still like to object on a few points..

1.) Corvettes are not designed to withstand heavy concentrated fire, nor do they have to in any game of to evenly skilled players. If you are ending up with a corvette in the front arc of a VSD - as the only arc that is able to issue a massive volley with a reliable chance of instagibing the corvette, or worse in a position where you may be shot at from two arcs, you deserve to lose your corvette. I play a lot with corvette-heavy lists, max. 4 corvettes vs 2 VSDs or 1 VSD/1GSD and have yet to receive a volley from a VSD front arc.

2.) Regarding the "far more firepower" thing, I still think you slightly embezzle the second attack in that calculation. The superior firepower on Salvation only ever exists in a situation, where both ships are only eligible for a single attack for that turn - not necessarily on each other, but on anything else around. The moment I am able to shoot both attacks on something, the damage-per-points ratio for Salvation isnt that great anymore, and surpassed by other ships.

That's the thing: NebBs are the only thing Rebs have that actually CAN head to head a VSD and win. Since two Nebs (102) cost similarly to one VSD (85), advancing slowly and abusing your two braces to their one plus the incredible utility of Evade, means that Nebs are probably coming out on top of that encounter. If they're flanked, they're in trouble. But hopefully that's where good Admiralship comes into play. An AF2 can fight a VSD evenly, but it's a different sort of fight that is largely about maneuver and flanking.

Don't look at things in vacuum: It's entirely possible for VSDs to cover each other in a way where the only productive move for a CR90 (Besides hiding to protect VP, which may not win your objectives) is to weather a turn of enemy fire at bad conditions.

1.) 102/85 is 20% difference. Thats not negligible.

2.) A single 7 pts upgrade on that VSD (weapons team) would turn the odds a lot, and it would still cost less than two naked escort Nebs.

3.) On the corvette example above, 1 single redirect token is described at a faint defense you cant rely upon, here, a single evade token has an incredible utility. Both statements are right in their own way, and apply to each kind of token.

Not saying there is no place for Nebs in the current state of game, but these calculations rely on rather unusual circumstances (all ships are only able to fire one attack at anything per turn, specific set of upgrades..) or biased calculations to somehow make the Neb bigger than she is on the table.. best rebell ship?! Not according to calculations or own experience, that is.

This topic has been making me chuckle and roll my eyes in equal measure for a while now. Have we decided that the Neb-b probably isn’t the best rebel ship yet? (Since it seems to have moved onto “is the Neb-b the worst rebel ship”)……and do we really need to find a best rebel ship? Cant they all have their strengths and weaknesses that will play into or conflict with an individuals play style?

For my games I have quite liked a single neb as either a salvation or yavaris. Salvation is solid but I think people are seriously over stating its damage potential, yes its good, but its not crazy. I think its major feature is how easy it is to do that damage for its cost (to get comparable damage a CR90 would need both arcs firing, a gladiator is limited to close range, and AF2 and victory are more expensive).

It has proved useful as a flanker in a ship heavy build. If it gets ignored then great, if it gets chased it it tough enough to take a heavy hit or two, and then uses nav commands and tokens to boost past the attacker and leave it isolated (hopefully the salvation is pointing at a new target at this point).

With all the talk of using the wide flanks of the neb for blasting attacking squadrons……..does this actually happen much? When I attack an escort neb as rebels or imperials I like to put the fighters in its front, I’ll probably be attacking it with capitals anyway, so will have to get through those front shields regardless, and it can then only return fire on my squadrons or capitals then. This doesn’t always hold true of course, all kinds of things can lead to flank attacks, but it’s the most normal situation for the neb so far.

Corvettes can't withstand heavy concentrated fire when on their attack run. Because they're 2 evades and a redirect, a massive VSD volley at medium range (where Corvettes should be due to their reliance on blue dice in both versions) means they're going to go down fast. Just one accuracy and you can't even use Redirect, meaning 6 damage kills you dead.

In a head on engagement, Neb Bs are far tougher. 3 shields in front with two braces means you're probably not going to lock out the brace or damage hull in one attack. It'll take two dead minimum from even the strongest of arcs. You'll have more firepower at Range 3 even. With Salvation, you'll have FAR more firepower.

There's a lot of uses for Nebs. They just have an obvious single vulnerability that you must prepare against. Vs Demolisher, you'll just be peice-trading.

Still like to object on a few points..

1.) Corvettes are not designed to withstand heavy concentrated fire, nor do they have to in any game of to evenly skilled players. If you are ending up with a corvette in the front arc of a VSD - as the only arc that is able to issue a massive volley with a reliable chance of instagibing the corvette, or worse in a position where you may be shot at from two arcs, you deserve to lose your corvette. I play a lot with corvette-heavy lists, max. 4 corvettes vs 2 VSDs or 1 VSD/1GSD and have yet to receive a volley from a VSD front arc.

2.) Regarding the "far more firepower" thing, I still think you slightly embezzle the second attack in that calculation. The superior firepower on Salvation only ever exists in a situation, where both ships are only eligible for a single attack for that turn - not necessarily on each other, but on anything else around. The moment I am able to shoot both attacks on something, the damage-per-points ratio for Salvation isnt that great anymore, and surpassed by other ships.

That's the thing: NebBs are the only thing Rebs have that actually CAN head to head a VSD and win. Since two Nebs (102) cost similarly to one VSD (85), advancing slowly and abusing your two braces to their one plus the incredible utility of Evade, means that Nebs are probably coming out on top of that encounter. If they're flanked, they're in trouble. But hopefully that's where good Admiralship comes into play. An AF2 can fight a VSD evenly, but it's a different sort of fight that is largely about maneuver and flanking.

Don't look at things in vacuum: It's entirely possible for VSDs to cover each other in a way where the only productive move for a CR90 (Besides hiding to protect VP, which may not win your objectives) is to weather a turn of enemy fire at bad conditions.

1.) 102/85 is 20% difference. Thats not negligible.

2.) A single 7 pts upgrade on that VSD (weapons team) would turn the odds a lot, and it would still cost less than two naked escort Nebs.

3.) On the corvette example above, 1 single redirect token is described at a faint defense you cant rely upon, here, a single evade token has an incredible utility. Both statements are right in their own way, and apply to each kind of token.

Not saying there is no place for Nebs in the current state of game, but these calculations rely on rather unusual circumstances (all ships are only able to fire one attack at anything per turn, specific set of upgrades..) or biased calculations to somehow make the Neb bigger than she is on the table.. best rebell ship?! Not according to calculations or own experience, that is.

In a 300 point game yesterday my Nebs really did shine...although it must be added that my opponent played straight into my hands!

2xNeb(support), one of them Salvation, no extra upgrades vs. One VSDii with Screed and XX-9s, went head to head.

I was second player and my opponent (unwisely) picked opening salvo

He opted to waste his token mauling my Assault frigate (but failed to do much damage thanks to Advanced Projectors)

After some softening up by the AF2 and CR90a, the two frigates blew the Vic out of the sky during one round of concentrated fire (much helped by the black dice provided by the objective, but still.

I'm still not entirely convinced though, because I seem to get into trouble with my Nebs more often than not.

I will say this:

There's a lot of iteration to many of these discussions that come down to execution.

Statement: Nebulon is good at long range from the front with the right upgrades.

Answer: Smash it up close with a Gladiator.

Statement: Fly it with B-Wings so that you can't get close without dying.

Answer: Fly some Tie Fighters/Interceptors/Advanced to lock up the B-wings.

...

Same with the Nebulon vs. Corvette.

The reality is that, if you want to value the ship, you have to value it across all circumstances that people will encounter, probability-weighted. For instance, if a ship is dominant in one situation, but that situation only occurs 5-10% of the time, it's probably not a very good ship, and so on.

So to that end, my reason for finding the Nebulon B limited is this: it tends to fail in a lot of situations (anything mildly threatening getting around the side, without the exact right kind of fire support) and there are very few situations where it is dominant enough to win the game going away. Those few situations do involve synergy with other ships and squadrons almost 100% of the time, so I do believe the Nebulon B can be used (and, in fact, may get better at 400 points where one of them really does bring some interesting synergy), but I think it's the worst rebel ship in the sense that it's the most limited and reliant on other things.

That's not to say it should never be used, but it should be used carefully and not taken without a real plan for how it works in both bad matchups and good matchups. To that end, it's definitely more fickle than the AF2 (well rounded) or the CR90 (has one strength where it is undisputedly better than everything else and can always leverage it).

I'm still not buying the "NebB's are too fragile to be any good" arguments. Double brace and five hull can take a decent amount of punishment before going boom, especially if you can get an evade or two in there. We're talking it is basically going to take about ten hits to the hull, because of the brace, after your shields fall.

Even a side shot will require a minimum of ten hits (not counting Crit results) to one shot a NebB on that too fragile side arc, and even a Glad in Short range is going to have some trouble landing that in a single round of shooting. Keep your speed up to try and stay at medium to long range, avoid those black dice whenever you can, and these guys will last a lot longer than some people seem to believe.

A side shot would require a minimum of ten hits or two accuracy results and five hits. Which is a perfectly plausible result out of a VSDII, though certainly toward the upper end of its ouput.

There are other problems than one-shoting the Neb.

Just one crit can cause serous problems. That's going to happen a lot, despite def tokens.

Repairing/moving shields also doesn't work well - the side has only 1 max, so even if you survive the first volley, the next round will likely see you dead or crippled.

And the side arc is HUGE, so trying to turn away is either going to take you out of the fight or simply doesn't work.

The Neb B is an absolute battlewagon IF you can keep it at longer ranges even if it is getting hit in the side. The evade coupled with double brace combined with the generally low number of red dice output by most ships means it can easily turn 3-4 red dice into 1-2 damage and do that usually twice in a turn. It then has handy rear shields for redistributing to the sides with an engineering command to keep it trucking along.

Where it falls over is a large number of dice that overwhelm the defense tokens with accuracy results or overwhelm the single side shield and rapidly inflict hull damage.

Also being so reliant on those brace tokens watch out for Sensor Teams and H9 turbolasers. 2x accuracy results at med range will end you.

The Neb B is an absolute battlewagon IF you can keep it at longer ranges even if it is getting hit in the side. The evade coupled with double brace combined with the generally low number of red dice output by most ships means it can easily turn 3-4 red dice into 1-2 damage and do that usually twice in a turn. It then has handy rear shields for redistributing to the sides with an engineering command to keep it trucking along.

Mind that 2 damage will already be enough to sneak in a crit result on your Neb. 3-4 red die have a fair chance of getting both a crit result and a final damage of two or more, so there is your faceup card.

What has worked best for me is: use Nebs in pairs. Have them slowly advance. Have something else draw Imperial (for Rebel) fire. It maximizes the number of times you get to shoot, which is about as good as it gets.

I think the other thing that people are under-mentioning is that what the Nebulon B is good at (slow play a forward roll) is often exactly what the Imperial player wants you to do (so they can time their VSD or GSD to arrive at the exact right pace to blow the crap out of you at short range in the front arc), and the Imperials are better at it.

So part of the issue with the Neb is, without additional support, it's good at something that plays directly into the hands of the other side.

The other part is that keeping the Neb B at long range without exposing the sides grows exponentially more difficult the better your opponent's fleet is and the better they are at manuevering. To some extent, I find a Neb B naked (unless you are spamming the support refit, which I think can be done more effectively with Corvettes but I will concede there is a niche build with 6 ships using some Neb B supports to be found here) to be a "win more" piece, which is to say, if you are doing what you want with it and not being punished for it, you are already better than your opponent.

The part where it gets interesting is the "additional support" bit, which is where Salvation or Yavaris come into play, but then this is a totally different discussion not about the Nebulon B, but about "how do I achieve synergy with a very specific ship and squadron setup", and in that, I think we can find a very good answer, but not one that generalizes about the Nebulon B overall.

There are a lot of variables. For example, if my opponent has taken a good number of fighters and I have a clear line of fire I'm completely prepared to have a pair of Nebulons sacrifice the attack with the foward guns and focus on the squadrons. With the number of fighter-bombers I have in my force I'm content to miss some shots and allow the fighters to do the heavy lifting over the next 3 turns.

This could certainly mean I lose out on Salvation's attacks and waste that card, but on the other hand, it's not expected which gives me an edge. When people see Salvation they can take a good guess at what it's going to do- being predictable weakens a force.

I suddenly realised my shirt is very much 'Joker Purple'. That might explain the pro-unpredictable stance.

-*

The part where it gets interesting is the "additional support" bit, which is where Salvation or Yavaris come into play, but then this is a totally different discussion not about the Nebulon B, but about "how do I achieve synergy with a very specific ship and squadron setup", and in that, I think we can find a very good answer, but not one that generalizes about the Nebulon B overall.

but isn't that how every ship should be taken into account?

Armada isn't X-wing, the synergy and interactions between ships (and squadrons) is absolutely vital to victory especially given the timed rounds and objectives. Imo, this is even moreso the case with the Neb above any other ship. "how do I achieve synergy" etc. is really just asking "how do I use this ship?" and that's core to understanding the Neb's strengths.

As a jack of all trades, it's going to get crapped on in some capacity in every engagement so you have to capitalize its many strengths and leverage them against what the opponent is inferior against. Given the Escort frigate's emphasis on squadrons, utilizing their strength is going to have to involve squadrons in some capacity.

Doing well with the Neb and not being punished shouldn't be considered "win more," this should just be considered how you win any game of Armada (ideally, any strategy game should be won by outplaying the opponent). The only difference with Nebs is that their strength is not as simplistic as the demolisher or a CR-90, and will require thinking about them as parts of a whole rather than as individual ships.

Unless by punished you mean losing a Neb, but thanks to their very economic costs the loss of a Neb for just about any other ship (apart from a non-flagship Cr-90) puts the game in your favor.

in sum, the neb escort has a few advantages relative to other ships

*at base, it has more long range cost per punch than any other ship apart from the CR-90A and the support refit

*it is thus far the cheapest source of 2 anti-squadron, and will remain so until the raider (which I think actually caps out at either 2 black or one blue and one black if I remember the previews)

*it is one point more expensive than the GSD-1 for the same Squadron 2

combine these traits with rebel squadrons, which will absolutely crap all any GSD or VSD in close combat, and you have an incredible bit of coverage that your opponent has to play around. And that's how you generalize a neb: it's a generalist.

the titles are, however, a no brainer imo. Yavaris and Salvation are the Demolisher of the Nebulon B in that it takes a generalist and grants a specific capacity well past 11. The Yavaris is more generalist than either Salvation or Demolisher, however, since it is more situational, cheaper, and requires less to enable. By contrast, I always end up slapping Salvation on a support Refit

In my first game, I was in control of a victory 1 dominator. I got a medium range shot off with the objective about adding dice to your first attack of the game. (And a cf command+token). I rolled 5 red dice and 3 blue dice, and rerolled the blank on the red. Total of about 8 damage (with a crit and accuracy) into the side of the neb. I was furious that it survived.

If I was in a Vic 2, it may have been a different story...

I feel like the Nebulon B does struggle with it's role (or call it combination of strengths and weaknesses).

There's no doubt that an extra hull, brace and engineering 3 over the corvette makes it much more able to take one big hit. Indeed it is also amazing for front arc long range shooting. I can see how its better toughness and armament are worth the points over an upgrade, only giving away a little in speed.

However as mentioned before it tends to be used as a slow head on ship because it sucks with circling (if you want to circle, CR-A has to be the better ship). This has two problems:

- Imperials want you to do this, Victories still win. Long range of course the Neb does better but the Vic will survive to close range and outperform Neb-Bs in the joust.

- To do this we slow down. This completely throws away one of the Neb-Bs strengths which is it's movement speed.

Of course there are some acceleration tricks that might help, but I don't think going for head to head engagements at slow speed (to stay at long range for longer) is using a vessel with speed 3 (and most ticks at this speed) well.

Tl dr: the Neb-B is paying for a good dials but due to its weak sides, it can't use it effectively.

Yes, the Victory will win in a head to head. Afterall it costs more points. I don't particularly see that as an issue facing the Nebulon-B. If the Nebulon-B is able to stay in that fight long enough and do enough damage that the VSD can be brought down then it has absolutely served it's purpose and is going to leave you ahead on points.

if the neb is being used or considered as a pure combat ship then imo, outside of salvation, it's being used incorrectly

The simple addition of B-wings trump VSDs in close combat easily (so easily that it's actually sorta sad) and Nebs are superior at long range

if you want to use a nebs decent speed and maneuverability, store a nav token on the first around and then combine it with a nav command down the line (or, if you're raymus, just nav command ) you'll go ZOOOM

A side shot would require a minimum of ten hits or two accuracy results and five hits. Which is a perfectly plausible result out of a VSDII, though certainly toward the upper end of its ouput.

Just to correct you here, five hits and a double Precision will penetrate my side shield and deal four Hull damage to my NebB, and that leaves her with a single Hull point left over. So, to correct myself here it's actually eleven damage to the side to one shot a NebB.

VSD 2 firing front arc into my side arc is rolling three blue & red dice, with an additional die if it has a command dial ready. Needing five hits and two precision strikes on seven total dice doesn't seem all that easy to me, and is more of a worst case scenario. That's assuming either only getting two misses on three red dice at a range where I can use my evade token unless he rolls three precision strikes and five damage. His blue dice give him a 25% chance of a precision strike, that's a lot to ask on four blues, and even more to ask on three red at 12.5%. Averages say he gets a single Precision and three hits (including a Crit) on his Blues, and very high odds of a miss and a single hit on Reds with equal chances of a Double or Crit or Precision hit result.

That's five damage and a single Precision or four hits and a double Crit or four hits and a double Precision as the most likely result, and all these results still leave my Evade token re roll versus one of the Red dice (and you know I'm targeting that double hit Red if it showed up). Still not too scared of my NebB getting one shotted at Medium range.

And yes, even a single Crit can be really nasty, but my NebB can repair that single Crit in a single Engineering action (unless it's that Crit).

So again, I'm not scared of my NebB getting one shotted. I'm not encouraging it here but in all honesty, a NebB can exchange fire at long range with a VSD without expecting any hull damage, close to medium range and exchange fire again with a fantastic chance of again surviving that fire, and then limp away to begin repairing.

I got oneshot by a VSD-2 before

hithit hithit hit acc hit acc

what were the ******* odds

At close range?

I got oneshot by a VSD-2 before

hithit hithit hit acc hit acc

what were the ******* odds

That's a hell of a roll, but not too common. I'm guessing either close range, or your Evade re-roll was another double hit.

Either way, still not afraid of my NebB getting one shotted.

Pretty sure it was close range

It was one of my early games where the NEB's just sorta flew about wherever like lit rockets

They're much more disciplined now now I drift them into close range intentionally !

Seriously, took a faceful of vsd 1 once. Funnily enough, the neb took that really well (in the face) because brace tokens are lovely things

That's one complaint about the NebB I don't get. Shields and huge side arc, yes that is an obvious glaring weakness, but double brace on this tough little ship that wants to stay at long range anyway, not so much.

I see people saying the Frigate needs a Space Guppy/GSD brace of D tokens, meaning one of each, and I don't see it being better except on a side shot without a single Precision hit coming up. If we can Redirect shields versus a side attack, then yes it's great, but we want a head on engagement to get the most out of our weaponry, and that works better with double Brace than a redirect to a single side shield. A single token of each means we can lose our brace versus a single Precision hit, and now we're much more vulnerable to a single big hit one shooting us. A single Brace token means we can't alternate between two tokens in the event of taking more than one **** in a turn, so we lose the Brace after a two volleys. Honestly, the redirect wouldn't help as much on this ship as the double Brace and single Evade.

One of the reasons this ship is tough enough to take a couple rounds of fire from even the front arc of a VSD is because of the double Brace people, learn to love this flawed tough little ship.

That's one complaint about the NebB I don't get. Shields and huge side arc, yes that is an obvious glaring weakness, but double brace on this tough little ship that wants to stay at long range anyway, not so much.

I see people saying the Frigate needs a Space Guppy/GSD brace of D tokens, meaning one of each, and I don't see it being better except on a side shot without a single Precision hit coming up. If we can Redirect shields versus a side attack, then yes it's great, but we want a head on engagement to get the most out of our weaponry, and that works better with double Brace than a redirect to a single side shield. A single token of each means we can lose our brace versus a single Precision hit, and now we're much more vulnerable to a single big hit one shooting us. A single Brace token means we can't alternate between two tokens in the event of taking more than one **** in a turn, so we lose the Brace after a two volleys. Honestly, the redirect wouldn't help as much on this ship as the double Brace and single Evade.

One of the reasons this ship is tough enough to take a couple rounds of fire from even the front arc of a VSD is because of the double Brace people, learn to love this flawed tough little ship.

For the head-on engagement I agree with you, the double brace is definitely more reliable - though I still like to question this repeatetly stated comment regarding superior frontal fire power, but that is another story.

However, a redirect would help mitigating the side-arc weakness, as you could avoid receiving a face-up card after taking shots to the side more reliably. One consequence of not having a redirect is, that any damage of 2 or more to one side is going past shields, and while bracing and evading is very good at reducing staggering high amounts of total damage, redirecting is gold diverting those small damage numbers across other shield sections.. it would open a small chance to actually make use of your second attack by firing from a side arc, without risking to eat a crit most of the times. Granted, would work a lot better with a defense retrofit upgrade slot, but if you like that you could as well take the AF..