B-wings are our friends

they're just better suited to keeping away pestering GSDs and VSDs than bombers. A-wings are your friends for that

I think the problem with the Redemption title is more a problem of not enough NebB's over its actual worth. Almost everyone takes Salvation, because it is pure awesome-sauce. And many take Yavaris, because it is great when it happens while being cheap. And that leaves Red as the more expensive third choice that adds nothing extra to damage.

I think it's just for me, the realizing that a pair of Neb-Bs driving slow is far, far stronger than twice the value of a single Neb. With 6 red dice forward, you have a real chance in two turns of killing a VSD head-on, as opposed to just getting run down and massacred. It also protects your flanks a little by having a pair.

If you 2 turn kill a VSD you must be rolling perfect and the VSD pilot isn't doing anything. I like the Neb, but if a VSD is firing Warlord H9 and Intel officer, you're going to get hit pretty hard, and that's if that is the only ship. If you are going against that and a Gladiator with Screed Engine Techs and Demolisher you're probably taking some black dice on your side arc. The Nebs are better with support ships. I think the best Rebel ship is the Assault Frigate with a Neb at it's side.

I will concede a two turn kill on a VSD is a little optimistic, but I still don't buy what you're selling on the GSD flanking my NebB. Plus, your VSD & GSD are facing my 2x NebB and either one or two CR90s. And, I probably got two turns of shooting with three ships on your VSD, versus two turns from the VSD and one from the GSD. I'll take that exchange.

2 turns is a bit Mutch ( I did it, but mostly it was yavaris bwings against a fleet ambush vsd )

But yeah, focus fire NEB's (esp with slap ion) will slap a victory around at range).

The gsd is more of an issue, but again if you can trade neb for demolisher you come out ahead. Bwings facilitate this exchange very well, swings and 2 dice anti squadron facilitate it.

In my experience, more than the sides, the NEB's issue is lack of close combat. Haven's floatilla of "nope" is an option to address's that weakness, not THE option.

What's everyone using for fighters with the Paragon mkII and the Salvation Neb B? And tactics wise do you try to focus on getting enemy destroyers in double arcs and try to flank the rear or just adjust to how they approach. Its obvious you need to avoid the front arc as much as possible. But that seems easier said than done.

My NebB likes to approach on the oblique versus a VSD, trading shots at range before trying to fly past and keep range. Keeping my speed up versus them, and closing the range.

Versus the GSD, I prefer lower speed to try and keep them in front of me, and letting them close the range to me. Splitting their fleet if they're running Vics and Glads together.

As for fighters, I like large mixed fighter wings. If you're going fighter light, I would go A-wing heavy to TIE up enemy fighters and bombers.

The issue becomes if I am running a VSD and see that build across from me, I am probably throwing down a lot of engineering for my dial, which is allowing me to discard cards and/or recover shields. Sure this isn't allowing me extra attack in turn two, but with all of the upgrades a VSD can change the dice to their liking. Then by Turn three I would imagine that I am in range to get my blue dice involved.

The Gladiator is probably not going to come straight at you. I would curve it around to either try and split you up, or just unload into your side arc. If it is set at Speed two takes a turn one maneuver and then uses engine techs, by turn two it is already on you. I'm not saying Nebs aren't good, but I think it has to be paired with something that will soak up the damage like the assault frigate to keep it alive. Plus if you are running 2 Nebs and 2 Corvettes, you barely have enough for squads.

I think maybe go X-Wing with fighters, I know the A-WIng is better at tying this up, but if you fly A-Wings and I tie you up. Mauler is coming in to do 1 unavoidable and uncounterable damage, and then a tie advance plus Soontir is doing another.

Sure, but then you have a bit of a rock paper scissors issue with the GSD. A decently loaded GSD with engine techs costs a little more than a Neb-B, but can go from out of range to ouch range in a single activation, and also unload enough of a payload that same turn to one-shot a Neb-B. I agree that a lot of these ships are useful, but I just got home from a tournament where the top build was a 2xVSD-I and a moderately tricked out GSD with no figher screen. It absolutely MURDERED the rebel aces builds it came up against, even when Yavaris and bomber were plied to full effect. Worst round it played it won a 7-3 game because the bombers managed to kill a VSD, but 3 rounds of 5 the GSD was the only loss after decimating anything mobile on their side before going down or parking in front of an AF-II so the VSDs could eat it for breakfast.

Edit: Minor clarity and spelling corrections.

This was my experience last night. My opponent was flying 2 neb b's and he couldn't do enough damage to me head on before my GSD took out one of his neb's in a single activation.

I played a GSD 1 with screed, acm, engine techs, demolisher and wulf and just massacred my opponents neb b's in a single activation due to being able to fire from the front, then moving and firing from the side into the neb side. He was flying at speed 2 to start the game and slowed down both of his nebs to speed 1. He just couldn't get enough damage on the GSD to take it out before I took out salvation.

Nebs are high skill, high efficiency ships. In the optimal situation (pointed at enemy, long range, maybe a gun upgrade or salvation) they perform every bit as well as a VSD, for 60% of the points. That's a crazy level of efficiency.

However, one mistake and they will go up in flames. But you won't find that kind of cost-to-ranged-firepower ratio anywhere else in the rebels at the moment, and it's your only chance of knocking out a GSD in one turn, or a VSD in two.

Remember, as good as AF2s are, the Neb-Bs have the same firepower when employed correctly, for 20 points less. Two AF2s may be survivable, but having 3 Nebs is too in it's own way...

Your comparison only fits if both the VSD and the Neb only attacks once per activation - so yeah, if I willingly decide to discard 1 of my 2 attacks per turn, the Neb performs en par with my VSD. In any realistic scenario however, it does not. Same for the comparison to a AF, it only fits if the player decides to drop his second attack each turn for no apparent reason..

So looking at cost-to-ranged firepower, how do you justify the statement of "not finding that ratio anywhere else"? A Neb-B support with Salvation, no other fancy upgrades like TLs or Raymus, is 58 pts. Firing 4 red dice (CF) on salvation means 4 av damage, so 14,5 pts per av damage per turn. On a nacked AF2b I would pay 72 pts for 4,5 average damage on long range (6 red dice, front and one side arc..), so thats 16 pts per av damage per turn, or 14 pts for occasions where I might be able to shoot from both sides.. on a much more versatile and survivable ship that does not own a weak spot the size of a soccer field.

The trouble with the Neb is the fact that you need to restrict your attacks to one to not expose any side arc, a limiting fact that no other ship adheres to. Any VSD or whatever with a reasonably skilled player will be able to blast your Neb from two arcs most of the time, especially whilst steaming at speed 1.

A decently loaded gsd, particularly the techs ACM demos which can murder nebs, are going to cost significantly more than a neb assuming it hasn't been overloaded with upgrades

I personally don't spend more than 14 points on salvation (title + raymus) and the bare minium on escort NEB's because their Base stats are veryvsolid and the risk of getting blown out the sides doesn't make expensive NEB's appealing

Any flair given to my neb lists come from bwings, which add ridiculous punch independent of the nebs' fragility and absolutely scares the pants off of close range imp ships. Since NEB's get little to no benefit from close engagements, I find bwings to be just the thing to tip the scales in their favor

If the demolisher eats salvation on to be counter murdered by bs (On top of damage sustained from other nebs), then the salvation is still coming out ahead

BTW, if you're getting two arced by vsds, it's your fault not the NEB's

Another interesting ship to pair with the Neb B in this case to counter is a CR90B with the Ion Cannon Batteries... you can always take concentrate fire because the CR90 picks the command every turn, you are throwing 4 blue dice out the front and might get a double arc shot if you knew they were coming, and if they have shields up and no command tokens (frequently the case if a Gladiator blitzed you), you are averaging a hair under 4 damage per shot out the front with a concentrate fire command.

For 44 points.

Assuming you have anything else in your fleet, you should be able to smoke the gladiator that smoked your Neb. B-wings are a solid escort to deter this, but I dislike them for other reasons (what do you do with them after?)... A-wings might be a good choice as you still drop black dice on anything that got close, but then can shoot off to engage squadrons even without a ship giving squadron commands later, and with counter, even if you just get stuck in you are punching back.

A decently loaded gsd, particularly the techs ACM demos which can murder nebs, are going to cost significantly more than a neb assuming it hasn't been overloaded with upgrades

I personally don't spend more than 14 points on salvation (title + raymus) and the bare minium on escort NEB's because their Base stats are veryvsolid and the risk of getting blown out the sides doesn't make expensive NEB's appealing

Any flair given to my neb lists come from bwings, which add ridiculous punch independent of the nebs' fragility and absolutely scares the pants off of close range imp ships. Since NEB's get little to no benefit from close engagements, I find bwings to be just the thing to tip the scales in their favor

If the demolisher eats salvation on to be counter murdered by bs (On top of damage sustained from other nebs), then the salvation is still coming out ahead

BTW, if you're getting two arced by vsds, it's your fault not the NEB's

Okay, this is not getting anywhere if we start bringing up particular setups to "counter-theorycraft". Sure your Neb with at least 2 B-Wings is probably going to hurt the GSD - the combo is more expensive (a GSD with your mentioned upgrades is 81, Salvation, Raymus and 2 Bs is 93), so it should have some edge, right?

However, your combo is still not addressing the point I raised - your Neb ist still only delivering 3(4) reds a turn, and to make things worse you invested 28 points as protection - for what? As an imperial I dont see your Neb as much of a threat, so why kamikaze any GSD at you in the first place?

And for the "two arced by VSDs", thats a nonsense reply. The idea discussed in this thread was to slowsteam a Neb at speed 1 to make use of Salvation and long range fire. First, any empire player worth his salt will be able to get shots from two arcs on a speed-1-thingy. Its so predictable you basically cant mess that up!

Second, my point was that a VSD - like any other ship except for the Neb - is quite able to make 2 attacks per round without having to expose any weak spot. Hence, the comparison is flawed in the previous posts imho, as it is based on the idea that the enemies ship is not using his second attack as well! The sniper Neb is severely hampered by not having access to a weapons team, or anything like that.

Its still a nice ship, there is still use for both Yavaris and Salvation. I just dont see the hype for Salvation so much, as long as nobody is having a good idea how to make the second attack count..

B-wings aren't counter-theory, they work in practice

as for the investment, you protect the nebs from everything that isn't a cr-90 swarm since very little else is going to beat them at long range (especially not imperial ships). The enemy is going to come to them as a function of all the red dice + salvation; B-wings are imo the best way to be prepared.

Of course, imperials are free to keep their Demolisher at range where it becomes, in essence, a sh*tty Neb-B

The idea that the Neb B is the only ship to have a weakpoint isn't quite right. VSDs have a weakpoint as well (their back has horrible shielding) but mostly they are terribly inefficient anti-ship for their cost if they're not firing out the front. If the VSD is for some reason angling itself to get 2 arc shots, it leaves itself open to be more easily flanked or back-stabbed. Making 2 attacks a round is nice when you can get it off, but it is nowhere as easy as your post makes it sound.

The neb isn't as cut and dry a ship as "uh oh, sides are out guess I'm dead," she's got 2 braces for a reason. Likewise, every other ship isn't suddenly a space whale because they don't have a 1 shield side.

To use the Nebulon B effectively, I feel like you have to think long and hard about two things:

1. How do I turn a weakness (wide, lightly shielded flanks) into a strength?
2. How do I maximize what the ship is already good at?

So with the ship, I see a few potential roles it can be very good at.

1. Salvation-titled ships are unmatched long-range blasters.
2. Escort Nebulon B's can use the sides effectively, as showing the side to a fighter swarm also means ridiculous incidents like throwing 16 blue dice out with a single hull zone (8 fighters) in a single shot.
3. Yavaris-titled ships, especially with Raymus, can be effective as baby carriers.
4. Redemption-titled ships are repair generators for the rest of the fleet.

Then you have to ask are some of these roles complementary, are they the best use of upgrades (I like Raymus on the AFII), and how points efficient can it be?

Right now, the best build I have found for the Nebulon B is an escort Neb B with the Salvation title and X-17s. You get the advantage of the escort (and something to do with the second hull zone if the enemy is coming at you with fighters), you get the best long range blaster in the game, and you turn a weakness into a strength in that you know the enemy is going to want to come at the thing and take it out from the side. This form of predictability is its own kind of advantage.

With all that said, I like the ship, I don't love it. The Salvation is far and away the best way to run it I have found, but overall my fleets tend to include one Nebulon B, and it's just that one.

B-wings aren't counter-theory, they work in practice

Ehm, I never said anything like that. Thanks.

You can not assert that second attack as the guarantee that you seem to be making it out to be. Especially not with the way arcs are seated on certain ships, especially not at the longer distances.

Your dismissal of a NebB Salvation with the X17 doesn't make much sense.

Giving that it is pumping out four damage at long range as an average, probably without any Precision results isn't too impressive, until you consider the X17 in conjunction with the damage.

An enemy ship can't redirect more than a single damage point, almost making it a bad choice to make. Especially considering that only the NebB has two Brace tokens.

So, the target is either using two tokens to take a single damage point on two shield facings, or they're using a Brace and taking two on one shield, or using the Redirect and taking three on the facing shield and one on another.

All while awaiting the fire from the NebB's other ships, which makes the use of D Tokens even riskier.

It is a given that the NebB loadout will either be the Salvation or Yavaris, and I expect Sal sees a lot more action than not, and the constant reports of its demise are greatly exaggerated.

Your dismissal of a NebB Salvation with the X17 doesn't make much sense.

Giving that it is pumping out four damage at long range as an average, probably without any Precision results isn't too impressive, until you consider the X17 in conjunction with the damage.

An enemy ship can't redirect more than a single damage point, almost making it a bad choice to make. Especially considering that only the NebB has two Brace tokens.

So, the target is either using two tokens to take a single damage point on two shield facings, or they're using a Brace and taking two on one shield, or using the Redirect and taking three on the facing shield and one on another.

All while awaiting the fire from the NebB's other ships, which makes the use of D Tokens even riskier.

It is a given that the NebB loadout will either be the Salvation or Yavaris, and I expect Sal sees a lot more action than not, and the constant reports of its demise are greatly exaggerated.

I agree, but I also wouldn't quite dismiss the Redemption as a backline support ship either. In my 3 Nebulon games, it's been the Redemption that's kept the fleet going well past its supposed destruction.

You can not assert that second attack as the guarantee that you seem to be making it out to be. Especially not with the way arcs are seated on certain ships, especially not at the longer distances.

In my experience, the second attack is taking place more often than it does not. Imho, the assumption of having two attacks per turn seems more likely than the OPs assumption of having only a single attack per turn.

Originally I was distainful of the Nebulon-Bs but having a few games with them now, I think they're a decent addition to the Rebellion. I could say they are the best ship but with a caveat: they are the best as a backbone of rebel ships.

The Rebellion now has three ships to pick from. Assault frigates are big and expensive, CR-90s are lightweight and small, but the Nebulons are good mainstays to fill out lists with good guns. They can attack ships at long range, they have decent fighter command abilities, and their AA rating out of a single ship for it's cost is currently unmatched. One could take an assault frigate and a couple of supporting Nebulons as the basis of a good list. Same with a couple of nebulons, a flanking CR-90, and a gaggle of fighters.

Those weak side arcs are a problem only when you pass an enemy ship, or when you try to so some circle-strafing. Mostly I can imagine rebel players facing enemy craft on the approach and using the side guns only to shred enemy fighters that try to get into their sides (and the nebulon using that second attack on them). They are good escorts and compliments to the rest of the fleet.

I think once wave 2 hits the Nebulons will still have a role in being cheap fire support and AA escort. I also think of the ships we've seen so far, the Nebulons have the best and most useful all-around titles.

I find the Neb-B quite hard to fly, simply because of the nature of the game's inertia - where you HAVE to fly forwards. I also find that games are very much decided by a ship's positioning. Often I'm left with a choice of whether to turn the NOS on and burn into range of something to exchange fire, then try and turn to get behind them. OR. I'm trying to sit at long range for as long as possible, which rarely works when both ships are moving at speed 1 towards each other, they end up at medium, close range after the first exchange anyway. Most of the time you're forced to expose your weak broadside for ages.

What's been successful for you guys when flying the Neb B's?

I engage at range, close, and then get into ramming range and stay there blasting away. I'd rather take the ramming damage than expose my broadsides for anything worse. Of course, this is with the presumption that I'm also activating B-wings and doing my best to cause more damage to justify receiving that one card for ramming. With another nebulon parallel, I should be able to trade at most one Nebulon for whomever I'm ramming.

B-wings have been beautiful. You can drift right towards a star destroyer and just pass right on through thanks to your little buddes

seriously, they're absolutely disgusting esp with yavaris and esp with multiple escort frigates providing covering fire from squadrons (tie fighters and ints hate them). Throw in some A-wings for dedicated intercepting or long range anti-ship help and you got yourself a fleet.

So far, it's paid to be almost excessively aggressive with the nebs. It's incredibly difficult to keep them alive relative to the VSD or the fattie, but there aren't many ships in the game less expensive than them (really just the cr-90 atm). There also aren't many ships in the game more proficient at long range so either way you're having a ball.

Just mind your positioning. The sides are one thing, but mainly it's how the nebs have a lot of things they want to be able to acomplish at a moment's notice. If they're not concentrating fire or overlapping anti-squadron coverage then they're simply not being as effective as they could be, which takes a while to get used to because it involves facing their front at enemy ships and sides around where the B-wings are chilling while keeping said Bs in a position where they can shift to engage close-range ships.

the neb is a ship of many strengths, but if she's not utilized to the best of those then she's not going to bring out her full potential

Your dismissal of a NebB Salvation with the X17 doesn't make much sense.

Giving that it is pumping out four damage at long range as an average, probably without any Precision results isn't too impressive, until you consider the X17 in conjunction with the damage.

An enemy ship can't redirect more than a single damage point, almost making it a bad choice to make. Especially considering that only the NebB has two Brace tokens.

So, the target is either using two tokens to take a single damage point on two shield facings, or they're using a Brace and taking two on one shield, or using the Redirect and taking three on the facing shield and one on another.

All while awaiting the fire from the NebB's other ships, which makes the use of D Tokens even riskier.

It is a given that the NebB loadout will either be the Salvation or Yavaris, and I expect Sal sees a lot more action than not, and the constant reports of its demise are greatly exaggerated.

I agree, but I also wouldn't quite dismiss the Redemption as a backline support ship either. In my 3 Nebulon games, it's been the Redemption that's kept the fleet going well past its supposed destruction.

It's not that I'm dismissive of the Redemptin, it's just hard for me personally to justify including her in my fleet.

I run a twin NebB build, so I'm only including two of the three titles. Salvation with X17s are sooooooo good, it's almost impossible to not take them, so that leaves Red or Yavaris. Red is three points more expensive, adds nothing extra to offense, but is a solid support ship for the rest of my ships.

The problem is that I don't fly a Space Guppy, and that means relying on my NebB's for most of my firepower/squadron commands. So, we're back to using Sal as a first choice because, Awesome! So, between Red and Yavaris carrying more of my offensive punch, I've personally got to stick to Yav for the cheaper cost and more offense.

Once the Mon Cal comes out, I can shift more of the offense and squadron command to them, and then I will probably start working Red into those 400 point list as a way to keep Home One flying. But until then, Red stays in dock for me.