oh no! it's a "this ship is broken" topic...

By Grave13, in Star Wars: Armada

Lyraeus, on 01 Jun 2015 - 01:30 AM, said:

I hope you understand that point blank range is thousands of kilometers right. . . If not more. . .

Look, we can get into this debate all day long, I could counter your statement with the simple fact that 18th century ships were classified by size because that limited their Armaments as well as their crew size, and even their range from a port of call.

I could then add that today's modern Cruisers and Destroyers are roughly the same size with the same armaments. Thus effectively phasing out a cruiser. Which leads to the point that combining ship roles is how the future is leading towards and eventually carriers will be Cruisers as well as our tech progresses.

I then could counter that even in the Star Wars novels and EU novels, there are clear signs of classifications.

This is all meaningless really though since it is our interpretations and knowledge that is guiding our concepts of this and you are a historian with a vast array of knowledge from 3 centuries plus past and I am a Navy Veteran Intelligence Specialist who specialized in ship identification, classification, with a love of WWI and WWII tactics and naval combat.

Actually, fleet engagements in Star Wars do take place practically at point-blank range; see the battle at Coruscant in Ep III or Endor in VI. In most cases, ships had to close to do significant damage. When you collide in Armada your ships are colliding literally. Heck, turbolasers have individual gunnery teams firing cartridges, to extend the 18th century naval metaphor. This isn't Battlefleet Gothic.

Ships in the 18th century were classified by the number of guns they carried and their number of decks. The earliest rating was based not on the number of guns, but on the established complement (number of men). The first classification took place in 1626, and From about 1660 the classification moved from one based on the number of men to one based on the number of carriage guns a ship carried. First, second and third rate ships had sufficient numbers of guns to be considered strong enough to stand in the line of battle; the number of guns required was constantly going up. Fourth and Fifth rate ships were designated based on their roles and how they mounted guns; A 'Frigate' originally meant that the guns of a ship were mounted on deck in a single row. The most powerful ships in the mid 19th century were 'Armoured Frigates', and retained their designation.

Over time, of course, designations change as technology changes and roles become obsolete. The designation 'cruiser' was originally given to ships which were able to operate for long periods at sea and raid merchant shipping, hence the term 'cruise-r.', but had to be fast and large enough to mount guns capable of sinking armoured merchant vessels. They were never intended to be ships of the line, even if they commonly served as such, which is why many people misinterpret the term. Since missile technology the need for a cruiser has been redundant since a frigate or destroyer mounts sufficient armament to sink an entire convoy of merchant ships in a single salvo, hence why no modern navy builds 'cruisers'.

That prediction seems absurdly naive as future carriers will never be direct-fire ships of the line; modern firepower outstrips defenses to a ridiculous degree. The trend is toward unmanned aviation and submersible drone carriers for an effective 22nd Century navy. Until we develop ships capable of surviving nuclear weapons (highly unlikely) or even mach 5 anti-ship missiles, we won't see direct engagement from carriers. (They already fulfil the role of the cruiser in the sense they can undertake long voyages and sink all merchant shipping in a 300km exclusion zone and have for decades.)

The EU can classify as they wish but I'm trying to draw historical parallels here. I wrote my response to your classifications because I felt they were wholly erroneous and lacking in actual insight on how navies actually classified ships. For instance, you classified the Imperial Star Destroyer as a 'Scout Battleship'. If the backbone of the Imperial fleet is a 'Scout Battleship,' what would qualify as their actual battleships?

No offense meant, and I'm not entirely sure what being a naval intelligence specialist entails, but you do seem awfully misinformed about modern and historical navies. Perhaps read a little less soft sci-fi and catch up on some current naval defence journals, and read a little more widely in your Naval histories? ;)

"No modern Navy builds cruisers" I suggest you recheck that bit of info.

Using historical terminology without adding in the fact that those same terms get modified no matter what their orginal meaning is.

Unmanned carriers are not the way of the future, nor are ships that can survive a nuclear explosion. There is not a ship that can be created that would survive a nuclear torpedo and no Navy has any dreams of testing such a thing. They couldn't first off because any such test would cause such an uproar.

I do hope you realize that you know nothing about how a Navy operates. . . Do you understand the term blue water Navy and brown water Navy? Do you know how many of each there are in the world?

A carrier is not a cruiser, it can't go on a voyage for extended periods. No navy ship can, not with out supporting ships. Oh they could out distance the USS Constitution with a matter of ease but they d9nt have the capacity to go on what is now considered "extended deployments". Please check your facts.

As for the Imperial. Battleships are strong and massive but I consider ships like the Executor a true battleship for the period we are looking at. Battleships are not the most common ship class out there. Those types of ships should be slow moving ships that can destroy anything smaller in a single Salvo or less. They are your backbone and inspiration not your entire bone structure.

If you are reading defense journals you are missing out on a ton of information. So far you are 0 for 2. Check on that.

Today was my first experience with the GSD. I went to my FLGS looking for a game so I took a 300-point rebel list and a 300-point Imperial list. Since I only found newbies I ended up running a teaching game using both of my lists and my miniatures. My Imperial list included 2 GSD with Assault Concussion Missiles. My god those things are murder if they get into close range with you. Since both players were complete novices they just sort of drove into each other and that worked real well for those 2 GSDs. The VSD was just sort of there as a mascot compared to those two.

Personally I don't believe anything is broken in the game. I believe that this game focuses on builds and ones own tactics, and rewards players for using sound tactics.

No offense meant, and I'm not entirely sure what being a naval intelligence specialist entails, but you do seem awfully misinformed about modern and historical navies. Perhaps read a little less soft sci-fi and catch up on some current naval defence journals, and read a little more widely in your Naval histories? ;)

Ugh. You annoy me with this statement to no end.

First off, The Lost Fleet series is not a soft science fiction series. It's not set like George Orwell's 1984 and other such fictions. It actually uses real science not just the psychology of the science. Next time do some background research.

I will be nice and even give you a place to start.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lost_Fleet

Next, your cute remark about not meaning offence when you mean just that is silly and is the same as me telling an officer "with all do respect". Don't kid yourself here, we both know you mean to offend.

Don't use history as your fall back. While creating a historical reference point is important to conduct a trend analysis, one has to realize that terms and concepts change just as frequently as generations of children come about.

Historical references are only as important as you want them to be. In this case they are only important to create a basis.

You need to get your facts as straight before stating such things Darth Ruin. You make yourself look bad otherwise.

0 for 3 currently.

Here is just one reason why war with "unmanned aviation and submersible drone carriers" is a bad idea.

I have lists of why they are bad ideas.

http://m.imdb.com/title/tt0708414/

You're...you're insulting him on the basis that The Lost Fleet is hard scifi?

Wow

You're...you're insulting him on the basis that The Lost Fleet is hard scifi?

Shhh, this is entertaining. Don't make them stop.

You're...you're insulting him on the basis that The Lost Fleet is hard scifi?

Wow

I am defending my opinions from my standpoint. He/she can defend their own standpoint. However if a statement is going to be made, you better have the information right.

You're...you're insulting him on the basis that The Lost Fleet is hard scifi?

Shhh, this is entertaining. Don't make them stop.

URZOZ3H.gif

I lost the topic, sir!

I lost the fleets, I lost the bleets, and I lost the leets!

you know, the fleets: this is a topic about armada

the bleets: "X ship is OP!"

and the leets: "you can counterplay X by doing Y or Z"

the radar, sir, it appears to be...derailed!

Edited by ficklegreendice

You're...you're insulting him on the basis that The Lost Fleet is hard scifi?

Shhh, this is entertaining. Don't make them stop.

You just like seeing fights while you eat your popcorn

I was disappointed that the edited the popcorn out of the Emperor's hands when the did the post-production on the lightsaber battle scene in Return of the Jedi.

But sure, you guys can quibble about ship nomenclature to your heart's extent.

However, I do think it would be more enlightening for everyone else in the thread if you were to start up a new thread about ship nomenclature, and let this silly thread die the death.

Edited by Mikael Hasselstein

****, I was really enjoying this...

So here is my question; isn't the strength behind the gladiator the ability to move, move and then shoot, but isn't the card that allows that unique? So then you would only have one that does that, and while the expanded launchers are nice I can see rebel players luring them in and blasting them to bits at long range...am I wrong?

So here is my question; isn't the strength behind the gladiator the ability to move, move and then shoot, but isn't the card that allows that unique? So then you would only have one that does that, and while the expanded launchers are nice I can see rebel players luring them in and blasting them to bits at long range...am I wrong?

Demo with techs goes at basically speed 4, which is range ruler length, and then fires off at close range, essentially attacking before you get to shoot it. The trick is that the demolisher is going to be more expensive than anything but a medium-base ship, so if you can kill it after it smacks you around you come out ahead. Bomber squadrons are the best for this role, since rebels traditionally lack close-combat ships (until wave 2 comes out with the mc-30 shrimp frigate)

you're right about it being a unique capability, though. Glads aren't exactly horrible at long range (evade + 2 red dice) they're just overpriced for that role because they're meant to be close combat ships. A gladiator at long range is kind of like a slightly sh*tty but more durable Nebulon.

so far havn't played against multi-glads (makes me really want to buy up 3 of them...), it's always been carrier VSD + demolisher

Edited by ficklegreendice

You realize fickle. . . I now have to paint one of my MC30's like a shrimp. . . Thanks.. .

don't forget to add red on the front (cocktail sauce!)

I just want to thank this post for pointing out The Lost Fleet series....I never heard of it before, but I'm sure to get it now!

I just want to thank this post for pointing out The Lost Fleet series....I never heard of it before, but I'm sure to get it now!

You're...you're insulting him on the basis that The Lost Fleet is hard scifi?

Shhh, this is entertaining. Don't make them stop.

You just like seeing fights while you eat your popcorn

Can you think of a better reason to eat popcorn?

I just want to thank this post for pointing out The Lost Fleet series....I never heard of it before, but I'm sure to get it now!

It does use real physics so it will help you understand the vast difference between star wars. It will show you so much. It is indeed a great series

Oh, I've read everything from the Lensmen series, every Asimov book there is, to almost everything Star Wars. I definitely know the difference, but even so I really enjoy a good military sci if book. For a realistic space combat series, I watch Babylon 5.

I will say this: I think part of the reason people are so focused on squadrons as broken combos has to do with the fact that the imperial side, short of a specific gladiator list, does not have a solid group of anti-squadron ships, and on the rebel side, the Nebulon is good at it but very fragile, and people seem to have a major love affair going on with the AFII-B over the AFII-A.

As more credible anti-squadron ships like the Raider show up, I'm not so sure giant squadron waves don't just become shooting galleries. I mean, already, when tie fighters take counter-fire from two Nebulon B's in the same turn, the swarm melts.

Edit: I also feel that the Gladiator is a strong ship because people are used to the Imperials being slow, and it is not. So far, I feel like it might be the best of the Wave I ships, but I don't think it is overpowered.

Edited by Reinholt

URZOZ3H.gif

I lost the topic, sir!

I lost the fleets, I lost the bleets, and I lost the leets!

you know, the fleets: this is a topic about armada

the bleets: "X ship is OP!"

and the leets: "you can counterplay X by doing Y or Z"

the radar, sir, it appears to be...derailed!

Exactly, i don't give a **** about ship classifications.

While i would say i am a veteran X-Wing player, i just played a few games of armada. With the starter bix alone it seemed imps were pretty strong because indestructible with Tarkin and 2 Vics. You could beat them with objectives but it was always uphill.

Now with Wave 1 it does feel a bit different though. I don't think the gladiator is toostrong!

So here is my question; isn't the strength behind the gladiator the ability to move, move and then shoot, but isn't the card that allows that unique? So then you would only have one that does that, and while the expanded launchers are nice I can see rebel players luring them in and blasting them to bits at long range...am I wrong?

Demo with techs goes at basically speed 4, which is range ruler length, and then fires off at close range, essentially attacking before you get to shoot it. The trick is that the demolisher is going to be more expensive than anything but a medium-base ship, so if you can kill it after it smacks you around you come out ahead. Bomber squadrons are the best for this role, since rebels traditionally lack close-combat ships (until wave 2 comes out with the mc-30 shrimp frigate)

you're right about it being a unique capability, though. Glads aren't exactly horrible at long range (evade + 2 red dice) they're just overpriced for that role because they're meant to be close combat ships. A gladiator at long range is kind of like a slightly sh*tty but more durable Nebulon.

so far havn't played against multi-glads (makes me really want to buy up 3 of them...), it's always been carrier VSD + demolisher

Isn't 3+1 actually a bit longer than 4? That last join is shorter, no? Or am I misremembering?

This discussion makes me want to field a fleet of CR90s with Engine techs. Just to see them race!