I cap Move at Sil 4 and require a Force pip per Sil upgrade. Makes it something only a very powerful Force user could pull off reliably and caps it at a level consistent with the source material. The two combined put it right where I want it to be at my table.

Nice point Vigil. I like that, it works nicely.

It unfortunately, wouldnt prevent the player I am referencing in arguing his point, demanding a test of some sort, or ripping huge security doors from their frames when not in a situation when distracted....

All food for thought though, thank you

Let them do the test. And then inform them as they roll that they have been gunned down and now the rest of the party needs to get them to safety to stabilize them.

As for the security doors... if you're a Jedi and you need to get through something without the time for a slicer to slice, why wouldn't you just use your lightsaber instead?

I feel that while there are plenty of good points on what the canon shows and what is reasonable to allow in game there is ONE mnetion as far as I recall as to the size of objects that can be moved;

"Size matters not" - Yoda ESB. (And then with much less visible effort than in the prequels for objects of not wildly different mass pulls Luke x-wing out of the swamp.)

Though in the time period any canon source shows movement taking a ISD going to annihilate most targets in the time taken to move it noticeably...

Sure you can pull that ISD, you move it 6 feet, it fires every TL it has at your party.........

Something that I explain to my players ahead of playing is my take on the Force. And for the record, here it is:

• The energy field that is the force can be considered to be a giant ocean, covering the galaxy in it veil.
• Use of the force creates ripples. The more potent the use of the force, the larger the ripple.
• Everything is connected to the force, and therefore everyone gives off ripples. Imagine everyone standing in the ocean.
• Force users can become attuned to listening to the ocean of force energy. Likewise, the stronger the force user is, the stronger the ripple they give off becomes.
• Using the force to sense someone's thoughts would give off a small ripple, whilst hurling a Silhouette 4 vehicle may give off a much larger one.

With this in mind, given the era of the setting, I would imagine that large use of the force would attract the attention of a certain dark lord.

I feel that while there are plenty of good points on what the canon shows and what is reasonable to allow in game there is ONE mnetion as far as I recall as to the size of objects that can be moved;

"Size matters not" - Yoda ESB. (And then with much less visible effort than in the prequels for objects of not wildly different mass pulls Luke x-wing out of the swamp.)

Though in the time period any canon source shows movement taking a ISD going to annihilate most targets in the time taken to move it noticeably...

Sure you can pull that ISD, you move it 6 feet, it fires every TL it has at your party.........

Yes, and Yoda talks backwards in metaphors...

I think you're assigning way too much mechanical definition to that phrase, The simple blunt truth in a game is you have to set parameters and boundaries to present and retain challenge.

The Move power regardless of the Silhouette issue is too little xp for too much capability. Why on earth would any Force wielder sink the xp necessary into Lightsaber training of any competency, when for far less xp they can tip Sil 4 AT-ATs over like dominoes?

To me it isn't even a Silhouette issue, it's just a bad game design issue.

The range upgrades only upgrade the max range, so no matter how many Force pips you use, it has to start at short range to you.

It has to be within short range (on the personal scale) of you.

Unofficially errata'd. (Maybe the change will show up in FaD)

Question asked by Kaosoe

[...]

Second Question:

The Range upgrade says I can spend force points to increase maximum range at which he Force user can move an object. There is some disagreement between me and my players with what this means.

By default a Force user can move an object at short range. If I activate all three range upgrades, would my character be able to move an object that is starting at Extreme range from my character, or just move an object from short range all the way to extreme range if I want?

Answered by Sam Stewart:

[...]

To your second question, range upgrades increase the range that you can start effecting objects.

The control upgrade that lets you attack [...] has a difficulty equal to the silhouette of what you're throwing. So throwing a Star Destroyer would require an 8-dice difficulty, which is beyond the scope of the 0–5 difficulty dice limit. Thus it falls under the Impossible Tasks rule found on page 18 (you need to flip a DP just to try it).

Just to add to this. Any ship with active engines and has people piloting, will probably turn this into an opposed check to make things extra difficult.

I cap Move at Sil 4 and require a Force pip per Sil upgrade. Makes it something only a very powerful Force user could pull off reliably and caps it at a level consistent with the source material. The two combined put it right where I want it to be at my table.

this sounds reasonable, consider this houserule stolen.

with my own force sensitive character i am reluctant to buy even the second strength upgrade, cause i think 20 base damage is way too much for a character that's not really supposed to be a fighter. i'm not sure i could resist the temptation (of the op side of the force! )

I feel that while there are plenty of good points on what the canon shows and what is reasonable to allow in game there is ONE mnetion as far as I recall as to the size of objects that can be moved;

"Size matters not" - Yoda ESB. (And then with much less visible effort than in the prequels for objects of not wildly different mass pulls Luke x-wing out of the swamp.)

Though in the time period any canon source shows movement taking a ISD going to annihilate most targets in the time taken to move it noticeably...

Sure you can pull that ISD, you move it 6 feet, it fires every TL it has at your party.........

Yes, and Yoda talks backwards in metaphors...

I think you're assigning way too much mechanical definition to that phrase, The simple blunt truth in a game is you have to set parameters and boundaries to present and retain challenge.

The Move power regardless of the Silhouette issue is too little xp for too much capability. Why on earth would any Force wielder sink the xp necessary into Lightsaber training of any competency, when for far less xp they can tip Sil 4 AT-ATs over like dominoes?

To me it isn't even a Silhouette issue, it's just a bad game design issue.

yeah, move as written is obviously broken. WAY too much power for very little xp.

I feel that while there are plenty of good points on what the canon shows and what is reasonable to allow in game there is ONE mnetion as far as I recall as to the size of objects that can be moved;

"Size matters not" - Yoda ESB. (And then with much less visible effort than in the prequels for objects of not wildly different mass pulls Luke x-wing out of the swamp.)

Though in the time period any canon source shows movement taking a ISD going to annihilate most targets in the time taken to move it noticeably...

Sure you can pull that ISD, you move it 6 feet, it fires every TL it has at your party.........

Yes, and Yoda talks backwards in metaphors...

I think you're assigning way too much mechanical definition to that phrase, The simple blunt truth in a game is you have to set parameters and boundaries to present and retain challenge.

The Move power regardless of the Silhouette issue is too little xp for too much capability. Why on earth would any Force wielder sink the xp necessary into Lightsaber training of any competency, when for far less xp they can tip Sil 4 AT-ATs over like dominoes?

To me it isn't even a Silhouette issue, it's just a bad game design issue.

Well I suspect you're mostly misunderstanding my point. Which was simply that the canon doesn't itself place any restrictions on the size of object that can be moved. Ever other canon source we have gives us a size that we know can be moved but I can't recall a moment where a jedi master fails to move an object because of its size. This isn't actually advocating letting the power be force unleashed stupid, just that canon isn't a great help for showing a limit.

But even so I'd be tempted to house rule more towards the size limits the effect of the power and the difficulty rather than ever making it a flat no. The ISD example I gave was designed to show this, that attempting to do something outlandish was likely to take time and leave you open. As for the persuading them a lightsaber is a better option, give them scenarios that an ATAT dominos champion narrow spec is still useful but a broader character would be better.

I feel that while there are plenty of good points on what the canon shows and what is reasonable to allow in game there is ONE mnetion as far as I recall as to the size of objects that can be moved;

"Size matters not" - Yoda ESB. (And then with much less visible effort than in the prequels for objects of not wildly different mass pulls Luke x-wing out of the swamp.)

Though in the time period any canon source shows movement taking a ISD going to annihilate most targets in the time taken to move it noticeably...

Sure you can pull that ISD, you move it 6 feet, it fires every TL it has at your party.........

Yes, and Yoda talks backwards in metaphors...

I think you're assigning way too much mechanical definition to that phrase, The simple blunt truth in a game is you have to set parameters and boundaries to present and retain challenge.

The Move power regardless of the Silhouette issue is too little xp for too much capability. Why on earth would any Force wielder sink the xp necessary into Lightsaber training of any competency, when for far less xp they can tip Sil 4 AT-ATs over like dominoes?

To me it isn't even a Silhouette issue, it's just a bad game design issue.

Well I suspect you're mostly misunderstanding my point. Which was simply that the canon doesn't itself place any restrictions on the size of object that can be moved. Ever other canon source we have gives us a size that we know can be moved but I can't recall a moment where a jedi master fails to move an object because of its size. This isn't actually advocating letting the power be force unleashed stupid, just that canon isn't a great help for showing a limit.

But even so I'd be tempted to house rule more towards the size limits the effect of the power and the difficulty rather than ever making it a flat no. The ISD example I gave was designed to show this, that attempting to do something outlandish was likely to take time and leave you open. As for the persuading them a lightsaber is a better option, give them scenarios that an ATAT dominos champion narrow spec is still useful but a broader character would be better.

I don't think you watched the same canon I did because we clearly see limits placed on Move, or rather it's what we don't see. We don't see the Emperor just grab Windu and his Jedi buddies and toss them out the window. We don't see him throw 5 senate dais' at a time at Yoda. We don't see him just drop the building on Yoda. We don't see him pick up the Jedi Temple and take care of the Jedi himself. We don't see him do any of what someone with a FR3 could easily do with RAW, and I'm pretty sure if the evil dread Sith Lord Palpatine didn't do it, it's because there are limits.

this is why you fail.

hehehe, couldn't resist.

After rereading the Move power in detail, I think some people are making it more powerful than it actually is.

The basic power allows you to move a silhouette 0 item from short range to your max range. Max range starts at short. The range upgrades only upgrade the max range, so no matter how many Force pips you use, it has to start at short range to you.

They clarified that in a direct query to the developers. You can start at max range or anything up to max range. And that’s going to depend on how many Range upgrades you bought and how many pips you have to spend.

The control upgrade that lets you attack—which means what you're attacking with must be within short range—has a difficulty equal to the silhouette of what you're throwing. So throwing a Star Destroyer would require an 8-dice difficulty, which is beyond the scope of the 0–5 difficulty dice limit. Thus it falls under the Impossible Tasks rule found on page 18 (you need to flip a DP just to try it).

Even if you just wanted to push around a Star Destroyer, you can't push it far. It has to be within short range (on the personal scale) of you. And you can push it up to extreme range (again, on personal scale). So you can budge it just a bit, not enough to even change the planetary-scale range band. Or, you know, fall back to it being an Impossible Task and just say no

The next step beyond Extreme Personal Scale is Close Planetary Scale. According to RAW, all you need is to spend another pip or two in order to activate those range upgrades again to get you out to those distances.

I honestly think the dev quote is someone not understanding how the power works. If it was intended to work that way, it would have been changed in AoR or F&D. Since it hasn't, I assume the dev was mistaken and it's supposed to work as-written.

As for the personal to planetary, I've don't recall ever reading that. Do you have a page reference for it?

-EF

When I asked Sam, I tried to word my question in such a way as to avoid as much ambiguity as possible, even citing an example to help clarify my meaning. His response seemed pretty clear to me. We have 3 force users in our game (it's mostly an F&D game) and so far no one has taken move yet (everyone's focusing on the glow stick), but it's coming. I'm going to play it by RAW for now and see how it goes.

The problem with being a game developer is that sometimes you remember how things used to work, now how they actually work. He could have been remembering a different iteration of the power, or just remembering how he runs it, or any number of things. My point stands: if it isn't supposed to work as it's written, they have had two opportunities now to fix it, and they haven't.

IMO, YMMV, etc.

-EF

It may be intentional, FaD is more Force Focused, while the others are meant to be far more downplayed.

Without someone asking the devs again, its all personal preference.

[...]. I'm going to play it by RAW for now and see how it goes.

As a point of clarification, I meant that I am going to play it as Sam had suggested.

People get stuck on the star destroyer example even though it is non sense to consider. The simple fact is for 70 xp and 3 Force pips, RAW, a Force user can wipe an AT-AT. A FR2 PC can just annihilate a walker. You don't have to toss, it, just lift it to Medium range and drop it, or just flip it over on its back like a big roach, or just push it over, regardless, it's disabled. Just my opinion, but RAW, a Force user with Move unbalances the hell out of combat.

The problem isn't even being able to do these things with the power imo, it's that such a low level Force user can do it. So I do my Force pips for upgrades method and it still allows it all to occur, it just takes a really really powerful Force user to do it. That is right where I want it, the stuff of legends, not just something Bob the Twi'lek mechanic learned to do for 70 xp.

People get stuck on the star destroyer example even though it is non sense to consider. The simple fact is for 70 xp and 3 Force pips, RAW, a Force user can wipe an AT-AT. A FR2 PC can just annihilate a walker. You don't have to toss, it, just lift it to Medium range and drop it, or just flip it over on its back like a big roach, or just push it over, regardless, it's disabled. Just my opinion, but RAW, a Force user with Move unbalances the hell out of combat.

The problem isn't even being able to do these things with the power imo, it's that such a low level Force user can do it. So I do my Force pips for upgrades method and it still allows it all to occur, it just takes a really really powerful Force user to do it. That is right where I want it, the stuff of legends, not just something Bob the Twi'lek mechanic learned to do for 70 xp.

While I am not saying anything against the house rule here.. I'd like to point out that ANY PC (even one with only 70xp spent) is still not 'Bob the Mechanic'. All of the PCs are intended to be the exceptional individuals that stand out from the rest. That being said, I would still agree that even Luke Skywalker the Jedi Knight should not be able to toss walkers about willy-nilly. Even though he is the stuff of legends he's not yet at a truly Legendary level of power like Darth Vader might be.

Is it actually possible to use the Move power on creatures? I thought Bind was what was used for using telekinesis on animate things? The way I read Bind was that this was the Force Push / Force Choke in the game. The Move power consistently refers to Objects and never once mentions using the power to move living creatures or droid. All its examples are also non-living things.

Because I see nothing under Move about being able to resist the use of the power which you would expect if you could use it on people / creatures / anything that might try to stop you.

Is it actually possible to use the Move power on creatures? I thought Bind was what was used for using telekinesis on animate things? The way I read Bind was that this was the Force Push / Force Choke in the game. The Move power consistently refers to Objects and never once mentions using the power to move living creatures or droid. All its examples are also non-living things.

Because I see nothing under Move about being able to resist the use of the power which you would expect if you could use it on people / creatures / anything that might try to stop you.

Yes, Move can be used on living things. Bind is more of just the Force Choke/Stun/Stasis powers.

FaD added a blurb on ways to resist various Force Powers if it's being used on a PC or particularly notable NPC as an opposed check. Force users always have the option of using Discipline in addition to whatever the non-Force-Sensitive people/creatures can use. For Move in particular, Resilience is the skill used when they're being tossed, Athletics for when their weapon is being pulled from their hands.

Is it actually possible to use the Move power on creatures? I thought Bind was what was used for using telekinesis on animate things? The way I read Bind was that this was the Force Push / Force Choke in the game. The Move power consistently refers to Objects and never once mentions using the power to move living creatures or droid. All its examples are also non-living things.

Because I see nothing under Move about being able to resist the use of the power which you would expect if you could use it on people / creatures / anything that might try to stop you.

Maybe, but the armor, boots and underwear dude is wearing are objects....so I throw them....unfortunately he is wearing them....and I throw them in different directions..........ouch......

People get stuck on the star destroyer example even though it is non sense to consider. The simple fact is for 70 xp and 3 Force pips, RAW, a Force user can wipe an AT-AT. A FR2 PC can just annihilate a walker. You don't have to toss, it, just lift it to Medium range and drop it, or just flip it over on its back like a big roach, or just push it over, regardless, it's disabled. Just my opinion, but RAW, a Force user with Move unbalances the hell out of combat.

The problem isn't even being able to do these things with the power imo, it's that such a low level Force user can do it. So I do my Force pips for upgrades method and it still allows it all to occur, it just takes a really really powerful Force user to do it. That is right where I want it, the stuff of legends, not just something Bob the Twi'lek mechanic learned to do for 70 xp.

Wouldn't the Force wielder have to make a difficulty 4 Discipline check? I believe so as you need the Control upgrade to aggressively throw things around quickly. If you don't have that then the AT-AT is just going to keep on walking through your attempt. So the force user must first get 3+ pips on two dice (having made their way to the bottom of the tree and bought the upgrade). That's only a 25% chance of success. Now they have to also succeed at their Discipline check. That's an average of two failures they have to beat. Suppose they have a very good Discipline pool. Let's say YYYG. On average they'll score 2.5 hits so would succeed, but probability is about more than averages - especially once you start chaining things together. You need an uncancelled hit to succeed so with a Discipline 4 check (which is nasty), they're still only ahead by 0.5. My back of the envelope puts it around a 60% chance of success with YYYG.

If we chain those two together (which we must because the player has to pull off both of them at the same time), that leaves the player with a 15% chance of success overall (25% chance of getting the Force pips with a 60% of passing the Discipline check).

All this requires a character who has bought their way all the way down a Specialization (minimum 75XP), the Move power and six upgrades (Power itself + 4x Strength upgrades + Range to gain access to the Control upgrade + the Control upgrade itself = 80XP) and has also managed to get their Discipline up to YYYG (let's call it 10XP to be generous).

So we have a player who has spent 165XP to have a 15% chance of being able to pull this off. And this is all before the GM decides to throw in a Challenge die or Setback. Exactly how long are you expecting this character to stand there taking vehicle damage from an AT-AT whilst they're trying this?

I'm not saying it's not good, I'm saying that I think you have presented something as cheap and overpowered when it's not.

People get stuck on the star destroyer example even though it is non sense to consider. The simple fact is for 70 xp and 3 Force pips, RAW, a Force user can wipe an AT-AT. A FR2 PC can just annihilate a walker. You don't have to toss, it, just lift it to Medium range and drop it, or just flip it over on its back like a big roach, or just push it over, regardless, it's disabled. Just my opinion, but RAW, a Force user with Move unbalances the hell out of combat.

The problem isn't even being able to do these things with the power imo, it's that such a low level Force user can do it. So I do my Force pips for upgrades method and it still allows it all to occur, it just takes a really really powerful Force user to do it. That is right where I want it, the stuff of legends, not just something Bob the Twi'lek mechanic learned to do for 70 xp.

Wouldn't the Force wielder have to make a difficulty 4 Discipline check? I believe so as you need the Control upgrade to aggressively throw things around quickly. If you don't have that then the AT-AT is just going to keep on walking through your attempt. So the force user must first get 3+ pips on two dice (having made their way to the bottom of the tree and bought the upgrade). That's only a 25% chance of success. Now they have to also succeed at their Discipline check. That's an average of two failures they have to beat. Suppose they have a very good Discipline pool. Let's say YYYG. On average they'll score 2.5 hits so would succeed, but probability is about more than averages - especially once you start chaining things together. You need an uncancelled hit to succeed so with a Discipline 4 check (which is nasty), they're still only ahead by 0.5. My back of the envelope puts it around a 60% chance of success with YYYG.

If we chain those two together (which we must because the player has to pull off both of them at the same time), that leaves the player with a 15% chance of success overall (25% chance of getting the Force pips with a 60% of passing the Discipline check).

All this requires a character who has bought their way all the way down a Specialization (minimum 75XP), the Move power and six upgrades (Power itself + 4x Strength upgrades + Range to gain access to the Control upgrade + the Control upgrade itself = 80XP) and has also managed to get their Discipline up to YYYG (let's call it 10XP to be generous).

So we have a player who has spent 165XP to have a 15% chance of being able to pull this off. And this is all before the GM decides to throw in a Challenge die or Setback. Exactly how long are you expecting this character to stand there taking vehicle damage from an AT-AT whilst they're trying this?

I'm not saying it's not good, I'm saying that I think you have presented something as cheap and overpowered when it's not.

You don't have to throw something to Move it. Just pick it up. Who said throw?

Is it actually possible to use the Move power on creatures? I thought Bind was what was used for using telekinesis on animate things? The way I read Bind was that this was the Force Push / Force Choke in the game. The Move power consistently refers to Objects and never once mentions using the power to move living creatures or droid. All its examples are also non-living things.

Because I see nothing under Move about being able to resist the use of the power which you would expect if you could use it on people / creatures / anything that might try to stop you.

Maybe, but the armor, boots and underwear dude is wearing are objects....so I throw them....unfortunately he is wearing them....and I throw them in different directions..........ouch......

Stop undressing me with your mind!!!

But on a more serious note, that's now the second Control upgrade you need as well (I assure you that my inquisitor's underwear counts as "secure" and you also need magnitude upgrades for multiple items.