You can't take away their FR, but you can take away their Sil 4–8 vehicles to throw! Just because they can throw a Star Destroyer doesn't mean there's always going to be one to throw.

Insofar as that goes, that’s true. However, that becomes a “chilling effect” on the game. Now, in addition to everything else, when the party is going to meet the BBEG, you have to make sure that there isn’t anything around that is bigger than Sil 1.

Moreover, once they get the FR, etc…, to juggle Star Destroyers, that can be channeled into other things that are just about as equally damaging to the game.

IMO, you’re better off if the rules are such that they just can’t get to that point, period.

Of course, YMMV.

i thought activating upgrades more than once is only allowed if it is explicitly stated that this is possible? the strength upgrade of move doesn't state that.

so anything > sil 4 is off limits, right? am i imaginig things?

The errata changed that, though. It now can be activated multiple times. Personally I'm not a fan of that change, and will discuss it with any player who wants to take the Move power.

-EF

argh! a terrible change that will be ignored.

Wow. Just…wow. The book specifically says you can take the FSEx/Em at any time. Not having the spec doesn't mean you're not Force sensitive, it means you haven't started to hone your skills yet. Every PC has the chance to become a Force user, until it's proven that they can't. Initial career/spec choices have no bearing whatsoever on what specs they can take later on in their adventuring career.

Much in the same way as I would never tell someone to run their game, I find your "Wow" comment a little on the offensive side. I have never said what I do is RAW, nor would I pretend to. This is just how I run my game and I have never had a complaint. My players are informed from the get go what the house rules are, and in my opinion, keeps them on theme for their characters. Ultimately its just how I run my campaign, and nothing more.

I've got to say Hooly is right, its his own houserule and theres nothing wrong with that.

If he dropped that rule on people after months of play when someone wanted to take Exile or Emergent, then that would be unfair, but since he makes sure everyone is aware of it to start with, there is nothing wrong with that.

Every table has houserules, I am not sure I know of any group who adhere to the rules printed in the book 100% without any deviation at all. I had a former player who would cite rules when it suited him, and then try and find loopholes when they didnt support his methods. But if the houserule is there before creation is done, then why is that wrong?

Its just how Hooly runs his games.

I can see his point, and the merits behind it.

I can also see how it could be frustrating to people who are undecided... that if they want to keep the option open to them, they HAVE to spend XP to take the Spec at creation, and thus make any further Specs more expensive.. essentially hobbling them alittle compared to everyone else if they dont immediately choose to develop their force powers.

But if they are aware of it, whats wrong with it?

Your Table, Your Rules.

Hooly does it his way, you do it yours.

No one is wrong in that regard (Unless you are a pure adherent to the RAW)

Wow. Just…wow. The book specifically says you can take the FSEx/Em at any time. Not having the spec doesn't mean you're not Force sensitive, it means you haven't started to hone your skills yet. Every PC has the chance to become a Force user, until it's proven that they can't. Initial career/spec choices have no bearing whatsoever on what specs they can take later on in their adventuring career.

Much in the same way as I would never tell someone to run their game, I find your "Wow" comment a little on the offensive side. I have never said what I do is RAW, nor would I pretend to. This is just how I run my game and I have never had a complaint. My players are informed from the get go what the house rules are, an in my opinion, keeps them on theme for their characters. Ultimately its just how I run my campaign, and nothing more.

I've got about three pages of house rules. All done to enhance the game imo and elevate non combat aspects.

I've also nuked the Move rules considerably because they're paying too much homage to a video game and not sticking to the source material imo.

Just for the record, if a player came to me with a cinematic and exciting way to make their character become awakened by the force (see what I did there?) and it worked really well for the story, I may be enticed to break my own rule. Just so nobody thinks I'm completely inflexible

This is why I love Table Top/Pen and Paper RPGs.

While Computer RPGs are fun, regardless of how well designed and written, you are still limited by the world and the options therein.

With this kind of game, you are limited only by your imagination and the GM. Anything is possible.

You could raise an entire Imperial Army and attack Starfleet HQ, before moving onto Gothan and ousting Batman, setting yourself up as King, and declaring war on the Avengers!

But if he's a BBEG, then he'd have a few ranks in Adversary, yes? Just because a Force-user can throw things doesn't mean they can hit the target. Remember that the Move power requires a Discipline check, and follows all the rules of a ranged attack. Range-based difficulty, target's talents, defense, soak, etc. And unless you're staging all your encounters in vehicle hangars, you're not that likely to have sil3+ items just hanging around.

In canon, Move is really hard, and nobody really goes beyond Sil3, and they work their butts off to do it. It shouldn't have to be up to the GM to account for all the environmental aspects to enforce a limitation-by-absence, the rules should assist so the GM doesn't have to be on constant guard.

The TOR trailers show a much more extreme version of Move, which admittedly in that context does look pretty cool, so if that's what your table wants, then the current Move works fine. But that doesn't work for me because I want a more canon game.

Whats TOR?

and I believe the biggest things moved in the films have been Yoda with Lukes X-Wing, and Yoda with the stone column in AotC. (Although why he didnt move Obi and Anakin I have no idea). Unless im forgetting something...

Or something in TCW that ive either forgotten, or not seen yet.

Wow. Just…wow. The book specifically says you can take the FSEx/Em at any time. Not having the spec doesn't mean you're not Force sensitive, it means you haven't started to hone your skills yet. Every PC has the chance to become a Force user, until it's proven that they can't. Initial career/spec choices have no bearing whatsoever on what specs they can take later on in their adventuring career.

Much in the same way as I would never tell someone to run their game, I find your "Wow" comment a little on the offensive side. I have never said what I do is RAW, nor would I pretend to. This is just how I run my game and I have never had a complaint. My players are informed from the get go what the house rules are, and in my opinion, keeps them on theme for their characters. Ultimately its just how I run my campaign, and nothing more.

I apologize, Hooley. After rereading that does come off as very rude, and not how I intended it. My fault.

I've just been burned one too many times by a GM changing the way that magic/psionics/the Force works in games without telling me until after I wanted to do what I couldn't do. Knee-jerk reactions aren't cool. Sorry.

Just for the record, if a player came to me with a cinematic and exciting way to make their character become awakened by the force (see what I did there?) and it worked really well for the story, I may be enticed to break my own rule. Just so nobody thinks I'm completely inflexible

That I can get behind! A story for everything, yes?

But if he's a BBEG, then he'd have a few ranks in Adversary, yes? Just because a Force-user can throw things doesn't mean they can hit the target. Remember that the Move power requires a Discipline check, and follows all the rules of a ranged attack. Range-based difficulty, target's talents, defense, soak, etc. And unless you're staging all your encounters in vehicle hangars, you're not that likely to have sil3+ items just hanging around.

But none of that addresses the larger point, which is that none of that stuff is visible in canon. Nobody in canon, not even the dark side users, lift people into the air and let them drop from extreme range, never mind throw things around other than as distractions or tools. The sole exception was Vader vs Luke, but Luke was already at the end of his rope by then, and those hits were more just knocking him around than doing any real damage.

In canon, Move is really hard, and nobody really goes beyond Sil3, and they work their butts off to do it. It shouldn't have to be up to the GM to account for all the environmental aspects to enforce a limitation-by-absence, the rules should assist so the GM doesn't have to be on constant guard.

The TOR trailers show a much more extreme version of Move, which admittedly in that context does look pretty cool, so if that's what your table wants, then the current Move works fine. But that doesn't work for me because I want a more canon game.

Yeah, that's true. I'm still not sure why they changed it to allow for "double dipping." Odd, and like I said before, I would have a long talk with anyone who took the Move power so they know that it wouldn't be useable to toss around Star Destroyers.

-EF

i thought activating upgrades more than once is only allowed if it is explicitly stated that this is possible? the strength upgrade of move doesn't state that.

so anything > sil 4 is off limits, right? am i imaginig things?

The default used to be that you couldn’t re-activate the same upgrade(s) unless the power specifically said you could. That changed in the beta updates. Now the default is that all power upgrades can be re-activated, unless the power specifically says otherwise.

Each set of upgrades takes one pip to activate, and you can re-activate for as many times as you have pips. So, if you have all the Strength upgrades, you can activate up to Sil 4 with one pip, a second pip can take you all the way up to Sil 8, and so on. Same with the Range upgrades, as well as the Magnitude upgrades.

I may be alone here but I have ruled that if you don't get Force Sensitivity at the time of character creation, you can't get it later. Basically this means you either start with a career from F&D that gives your a Force Rating, or you buy either of the two force related Universal Specialisations (by spending 20 points) at the time of character creation.

Force-Sensitive Exile and Force-Sensitive Emergent specifically state that they add FR1, if you take them. That’s the only way for non-F&D characters to gain FR1.

EDIT: Of course, your game and your rules and YMMV.

Yeah, that's true. I'm still not sure why they changed it to allow for "double dipping." Odd, and like I said before, I would have a long talk with anyone who took the Move power so they know that it wouldn't be useable to toss around Star Destroyers.

For me it's more than the double dipping, it's that for 40XP anybody can move the Millennium Falcon. But in canon, doing much more than pulling your lightsaber to you takes quite the effort.

Whats TOR?

The Old Republic game, here are all the intro trailers in one:

It's pretty epic, and very nicely done (I wish the actual game looked like that!), but waaaay beyond canon.

Is that the online one? Or the standalones?

It looks very cool, but my initial thoughts were.... Clone Troopers in the far past? Star Destroyers in the far past? Whats the dude from Red Dead Redemption doing there? Thats a Knockoff Falcon! Thats clearly meant to be Maul!

Dont get me wrong, it looks awesome! Im sure it makes sense once I look into it

Those are the trailers of the online MMO. It' set 300 years after the KOTOR games, and it features a returned Sith empire. The clone looking soldiers are actually republic special forces troopers.

Btw that's a high definition trailer, the actual game graphic aren't like that!

Yeah, I had gathered that

The issue I have with MMOs is the time sink they require. To get anywhere you have to put in a stupid amount of time on a nearly daily basis, which I simply do not have.

Not to mention the money required. Yes, I know its free to play as well, but with limitations. And I dont have the time of cash to really make it worth while.

I tried the first KOTOR game once, but didnt get very far, and its possible too old to capture my attention now given its age unfortunately.

Is that the online one? Or the standalones?

It looks very cool, but my initial thoughts were.... Clone Troopers in the far past? Star Destroyers in the far past? Whats the dude from Red Dead Redemption doing there? Thats a Knockoff Falcon! Thats clearly meant to be Maul!

Dont get me wrong, it looks awesome! Im sure it makes sense once I look into it

Online.

They aren't clones, they're Republic troopers. (There are also Sith Troopers, but they dress in black and grey and red - and some of them have helmets that look like crude, low-tech versions of Darth Vader's.) And Star Destroyer has also, to me, indicated more of a ship type, so it makes sense that they would have been in use way, way back when.

In any case, lots of things look like and feel like knock-offs of things from the OT and PT... because they're supposed to happen in the same universe and Bioware wanted to keep the same aesthetic as - in particular - the OT, but make everything look more crude and from an earlier era.

I'm hoping that The Old Republic and the events therein become treated by the canon Star Wars universe as The Lord of the Rings or the Hyborian Age (fictional time period of Conan the Barbarian and associated tales, some time between the sinking of Atlantis and recorded history).

ETA: I was able to play The Old Republic quite successfully by treating it as a single-player RPG. You always have your own group and the story is always about your character (and the characters in your group), so there's no need to seriously interact with other players if you don't want to.

I think Disney have already said that the game will not be considered canon, but that they can continue telling the story they have started, that as much of a wonderful beast it is, it will not be considered canon.

As for the asthetics, I understand that they want it to feel familiar, it just feels a bit too familiar.

Cool nonetheless! I would defiantly watch a CG TV show if it looked like those trailers, regardless where it was set, it just felt a bit..... too familiar.

I'm not saying they should be treated as canon or that I want them to.

I'm saying I want it to be treated by canon and within the canon as a form of fictional, in-universe mythology. If you're a person in the Star Wars universe, you aren't reading about the tales of Gandalf and Aragorn and Bilbo and Frodo and Conan the Cimmerian, you're reading tales about Kreya and Darth Revan and Bastila and Satele and Canderous the Mandalorian.

After rereading the Move power in detail, I think some people are making it more powerful than it actually is.

The basic power allows you to move a silhouette 0 item from short range to your max range. Max range starts at short. The range upgrades only upgrade the max range, so no matter how many Force pips you use, it has to start at short range to you.

The control upgrade that lets you attack—which means what you're attacking with must be within short range—has a difficulty equal to the silhouette of what you're throwing. So throwing a Star Destroyer would require an 8-dice difficulty, which is beyond the scope of the 0–5 difficulty dice limit. Thus it falls under the Impossible Tasks rule found on page 18 (you need to flip a DP just to try it).

Even if you just wanted to push around a Star Destroyer, you can't push it far. It has to be within short range (on the personal scale) of you. And you can push it up to extreme range (again, on personal scale). So you can budge it just a bit, not enough to even change the planetary-scale range band. Or, you know, fall back to it being an Impossible Task and just say no

Not sure where I'm going with this, just some observations.

-EF

@Vigil. OH I see what you mean.. yes that would be rather clever

@EL

Very true, that would make moving a SD a difficulty of 3 Red and 2 Purple, AND a Destiny Point.

However, it still remains that if you Maxed Strength to get up to Sil 4 (Ignoring the Errata for now), and went up to the first Control upgrade... thats a total of 70XP.

You can hurl a YT-1300 (Sil 4) to Long Range, for 40 Damage, at a 4 Purple basic difficulty. At a cost of just 2 Pips (I think)

Now I dont know if that would be a hard roll or not, i guess it would depend on your Discipline.

I am not overly worried about juggling SDs, its the juggling Starfighters that has the potential to be more game breaking.

(And I had a player who would do just that, then cite the rule book, then complain if I said no, and keep complaining until he got his own way - Thankfully, he is not in the group currently)

You can hurl a YT-1300 (Sil 4) to Long Range, for 40 Damage, at a 4 Purple basic difficulty. At a cost of just 2 Pips (I think)

Not quite, that would be 3 pips because you're also triggering the range increase. But that still only needs FR2, and a "solid" Discipline rating, and it's something we never *ever* see in canon.

I am not overly worried about juggling SDs, its the juggling Starfighters that has the potential to be more game breaking.

Exactly...though I wouldn't call it game breaking...if people like that I'm not judging it. But it has no place in canon or my game.

No, it would have no place in my game either....

And to be honest, I wouldnt want them throwing small ships at people either.

But, I do know, and have played, and may play again.... with a player who, unless i SPECIFICALLY cited EVERY INSTANCE of stuff I wouldnt allow in my games, even if its RAW... they would try and do it.

And even if I was specific, he would try something else that i hadn't been, VERY specific about, and then complain til the game broke down (its happened before), or he got his way.

Now I know this particular example is more a personal issue, not a game issue, but a blanket 'adjustment' (houserule) would be helpful if I ever found myself in this situation, something over a 'cover all'.

Because I can see the way the rules are written, being abused by "power players" (The sort that HAVE TO WIN... even in a game with no winning)

A Better understanding is always helpful. Because right now, RAW: You can throw a small starship at someone with some less than impossible checks. Difficult yes, but not impossible... mechanically

However, all your input so far has been wonderfully invaluable, and is certainly helping in develop my ideas for a character I am probably never going to get to play

Keep it coming! Thank you all!

When Jedi move big, heavy things in the movies and shows, it takes them a bit to get enough focus to do so - and we only ever see the most accomplished Jedi Masters do it, generally under controlled circumstances. (And if your character is more powerful than Master Yoda, Master Kenobi, Darth Vader, or Darth Sidious, there's probably something wrong.)

There are probably a number of reasons why we almost never see anybody doing that in the middle of a firefight.

A-Firefights are very distracting and being distracted isn't good for focusing on moving enormous objects with your mind.
B-Taking the time to engage in said focusing will leave one extremely vulnerable - and even the slightest push will result in them losing their focus.

So, yes, they could throw a TIE Fighter at a platoon of Stormtroopers. But they would be unable to move, unable to defend themselves, and probably get gunned down before they even moved the TIE a decimeter. And even getting hit just once would be enough to break their concentration and completely flub the move.

Nice point Vigil. I like that, it works nicely.

It unfortunately, wouldnt prevent the player I am referencing in arguing his point, demanding a test of some sort, or ripping huge security doors from their frames when not in a situation when distracted....

All food for thought though, thank you