I feel like Force Sensitive Exile should be taken at character creation, while Force Sensitive Emergent can be taken later (along with F&D careers/specs) or at character creation, because per the EotE core book, FS-Ex is supposed to represent a character who was (for instance) a member of the Jedi Order who survived Order 66. (I reckon it could easily represent any other being with some formal training in using the Force who has gone into hiding - such as a rogue Imperial Inquisitor, a Jedi kicked out of the order prior to Order 66, or even a Jedi trained after Order 66 but whose master was killed or left them or was expelled from the EU's New Jedi Order.)

So, if you want to play a character from character generation who is like Asajj Ventress at the end of The Clone Wars (perhaps a failed Dark Jedi Assassin or Inquisitor), Bounty Hunter, career-appropriate spec, add FS-Ex (acquire permission from GM to sub all blaster weapon skills with the lightsaber skill). If you want to play someone like Ahsoka Tano in Rebels, pick Commander, Diplomat, or Soldier, career spec, add FS-Ex (again, sub blaster skills for lightsaber). (An Aura Sing-like character would go Bounty Hunter or Hired Gun>FS-Ex but keep the blaster skills.)

On the other hand, if you want to play someone like Ezra Bridger from Rebels, Technician, career spec, add FS-Em. If you want to play someone like Corran Horn or Kyle Katarn, go Ace, Soldier, Spy, or Hired Gun, pick spec, add FS-Em.

I haven't had a look at F&D, but I imagine that FS-Ex could make sense for such a character after character creation, although such situations would probably be rare. Maybe if a F&D campaign goes seriously sideways, a gaming group breaks up and a new one forms that doesn't want to do a F&D campaign but the one remaining player from the F&D campaign doesn't want to start over with an EotE or AoR character, &c.

But that's me, YMMV.

I tend to change the fluff for FSExile a bit. In my games, it's someone that discovers a connection to the Force and tries to deny it and/or keep it hidden from those around them whereas FSEmergent is someone that discovers a connection to the Force and tries to embrace it and/or display it to those around them (within reason, you don't wear the "Gonna Be a Jedi Someday" T-shirt around in Imperial-controlled systems unless you want to attract Inquisitorial attention)..

@Vigil

While I like this idea, the issue with the Exile and Emergent, is that they are only really Talent Trees, with No Skills advancement opportunity. Which makes sense given the setting... the Forces 'Careers' come from FaD.

I think if I were going to play a Force User from Creation, I would allow the player to take the Exile or Emergent tree for nothing, otherwise they would start at a significant disadvantage over other players who would already be developing while you are trying to save XP to buy the Spec.

@HappyDaze

I like your thinking, its very narrative, but I am more interested in the mechanics so I can build a backstory for a potential character idea (that I expect I will never get a chance to play.. and if I do, probably wont be allowed to, or would be impossible to play based on the GMs play style... as I said, my group dont want to play Star Wars unless IM running it (Curse my unexpected success!), so I doubt I will ever be a player)

But it doenst say you can activate the Strength upgrade more than once. And the book says if it doesnt state you CAN, then you CANT...

So what am I missing?

The errata made it so you can go Starkiller, unfortunately. If it becomes a problem, it's best to talk to your players about it, and maybe just remove that part of the errata so Strength upgrades can only be applied once.

@Vigil, don't let the fluff get in the way of the game. The book specifically states that "…the Force Sensitive Exile specialization can be taken during character creation or any any later point, just as any other specialization", page 276, right-hand column, last sentence of the third paragraph. It also goes on to say they survived Order 66, but they don't have to be an actual Jedi or Padawan.

Really, HappyDaze is spot on in my opinion. FSEx is someone who uses their power on the down low, since they live in a society that actively wishes them ill. FSEm is in a safer environment. The Rebel Alliance treats Force-users like any other sentient being, not a freak or a monster to be put down.

-EF

I think the designers dropped the ball there.... I wouldnt allow my players to advance to the point where they can throw star destroyers around... thats the realm of video games. And it can stay there.

Sil 4 works for me, for someone who can reach that point, but I feel once you get there, you have possibly reached the end of the life of a campaign.. much like reaching the end of your 4th career in Warhammer.

To be fair, RebelDave, F&D has rules for what is called "Knight Level Play", which is a fancy way of saying "not a starting character." You start with 150XP post-chargen XP (so no improving characteristics with it) and either a lightsaber or 9k credits.

With that many XP, you can start with a super-powerful Move, but not have the focus to wield it properly.

-EF

Really, HappyDaze is spot on in my opinion. FSEx is someone who uses their power on the down low, since they live in a society that actively wishes them ill. FSEm is in a safer environment. The Rebel Alliance treats Force-users like any other sentient being, not a freak or a monster to be put down.

-EF

I don't know about a "safer environment" but it's a more accepting one. The downside is that the Alliance is training Emergents for use as living weapons, and that in itself has options if you want your game to highlight some tough ethical issues within the Alliance.

Thank you all for your wonderful insights, both mechanical and narrative, all is useful stuff.

Keep it coming

Keep asking, and we'll keep answering!

-EF

Really, HappyDaze is spot on in my opinion. FSEx is someone who uses their power on the down low, since they live in a society that actively wishes them ill. FSEm is in a safer environment. The Rebel Alliance treats Force-users like any other sentient being, not a freak or a monster to be put down.

-EF

I don't know about a "safer environment" but it's a more accepting one. The downside is that the Alliance is training Emergents for use as living weapons, and that in itself has options if you want your game to highlight some tough ethical issues within the Alliance.

Of course, in the Alliance, you'd have a choice. Not much of one, since the relationship between the rebels and the FS individual would be rather lop-sided. But the rebels aren't going to line you up against the wall and shoot you just because you don't want to be weaponized. On the other hand, they might just use you as bait or simply fail to provide a level of protection (intelligence, counter-intelligence, militarily, &c.) sufficient to preventing you from being discovered by the Empire and to keep you safe from the inevitable Jedi-hunting task force they would send. (And why should the Alliance expend any effort protecting someone who has so much to offer the Alliance and so little interest in doing so?)

If you're captured by the Empire, they'd torture you and make you a living weapon, whether you wanted it or not. Or they'd kill you trying.

Again, though, to do it every time without fail requires FR3. Which is going to cost you even more XP. The cheapest is branch into Warrior/Starfighter Ace and grab the FR talent for 95XP + 20XP for the second spec. That's 290XP to do one trick. One trick that requires a silhouette 4 object nearby to throw that deals 40 damage to one target.

What can a hired gun do with a light repeating blaster and that much XP? A heck of a lot more, if you ask me! More talents, more skills (remember that our one-trick pony only has the base skills from career and spec, nothing else), greater breadth of character.

The difference is that it’s easy to take away or destroy an LRB or a Z-95, but it’s much harder to take away or destroy FR3.

Force powers, talents, and ranks, once achieved, can’t easily be removed or disabled. You can throw more powerful Force users against them, but then that gets into a war of escalation that can easily lead to the destruction of everyone and everything else.

That’s my fundamental problem with having single individuals who could be capable of juggling Star Destroyers, or pulling the Death Star out of orbit.

Again, though, to do it every time without fail requires FR3. Which is going to cost you even more XP. The cheapest is branch into Warrior/Starfighter Ace and grab the FR talent for 95XP + 20XP for the second spec. That's 290XP to do one trick. One trick that requires a silhouette 4 object nearby to throw that deals 40 damage to one target. What can a hired gun do with a light repeating blaster and that much XP? A heck of a lot more, if you ask me! More talents, more skills (remember that our one-trick pony only has the base skills from career and spec, nothing else), greater breadth of character.

The difference is that it’s easy to take away or destroy an LRB or a Z-95, but it’s much harder to take away or destroy FR3.Force powers, talents, and ranks, once achieved, can’t easily be removed or disabled. You can throw more powerful Force users against them, but then that gets into a war of escalation that can easily lead to the destruction of everyone and everything else.That’s my fundamental problem with having single individuals who could be capable of juggling Star Destroyers, or pulling the Death Star out of orbit.

You can't take away their FR, but you can take away their Sil 4–8 vehicles to throw! Just because they can throw a Star Destroyer doesn't mean there's always going to be one to throw.

Most people forget that the Move power requires something to throw. If it's just throwing the target against a wall, that's silhouette 1 for 10 damage. A non-Force user can do that with a double-aim and a heavy blaster pistol. Or a wookie maurader with their fists.

-EF

You can't take away their FR, but you can take away their Sil 4–8 vehicles to throw! Just because they can throw a Star Destroyer doesn't mean there's always going to be one to throw.

Insofar as that goes, that’s true. However, that becomes a “chilling effect” on the game. Now, in addition to everything else, when the party is going to meet the BBEG, you have to make sure that there isn’t anything around that is bigger than Sil 1.

Moreover, once they get the FR, etc…, to juggle Star Destroyers, that can be channeled into other things that are just about as equally damaging to the game.

IMO, you’re better off if the rules are such that they just can’t get to that point, period.

Of course, YMMV.

You can't take away their FR, but you can take away their Sil 4–8 vehicles to throw! Just because they can throw a Star Destroyer doesn't mean there's always going to be one to throw.

Insofar as that goes, that’s true. However, that becomes a “chilling effect” on the game. Now, in addition to everything else, when the party is going to meet the BBEG, you have to make sure that there isn’t anything around that is bigger than Sil 1.

Moreover, once they get the FR, etc…, to juggle Star Destroyers, that can be channeled into other things that are just about as equally damaging to the game.

IMO, you’re better off if the rules are such that they just can’t get to that point, period.

Of course, YMMV.

i thought activating upgrades more than once is only allowed if it is explicitly stated that this is possible? the strength upgrade of move doesn't state that.

so anything > sil 4 is off limits, right? am i imaginig things?

I may be alone here but I have ruled that if you don't get Force Sensitivity at the time of character creation, you can't get it later. Basically this means you either start with a career from F&D that gives your a Force Rating, or you buy either of the two force related Universal Specialisations (by spending 20 points) at the time of character creation.

I may be alone here but I have ruled that if you don't get Force Sensitivity at the time of character creation, you can't get it later. Basically this means you either start with a career from F&D that gives your a Force Rating, or you buy either of the two force related Universal Specialisations (by spending 20 points) at the time of character creation.

nope, not alone at all, i agree with that. you either are force sensitive, or you are not. when i created my force sensitive thief i took force sensitve exile at once, despite being aware of the the fact that a stat increase would have been more "efficient". as gm a player would have to come up with a very convincing idea how someone became force sensitve later on. i'd not rule it out completely, but the idea would have to be exceptional.

the force should be part of the character concept, not simply a collection of powers.

I'd disagree.

From Star Wars Legends, we've got examples of folks who were latent Force-sensitives and didn't really know of it (i.e. didn't have any Force powers) until Luke came along and brought them up to speed. Luke himself probably counts as well. having started as either an Explorer/Fringer or Ace/Pilot and his exceptional piloting skills being narratively associated with the Force by mechanically represented with him having 2 ranks in both Piloting skills when most folks would only have one rank at best. The Obi-Wan comes along, clues the kid in on the Force, and Luke's player grabs Emergent and the Sense power during that fateful trip to Alderaan.

It would ultimately depend on the player. If eventually becoming Force-sensitive was something that they'd made clear long before doing it and they can provide a satisfying story reason for the change, then I say let them do so.

The only time I'd nix a PC becoming Force-sensitive after character creation is if it's clear the player is only doing it to become more powerful.

I see your point Dono, but each time, even for Anakin, we have quote like "he can see things before they happen" or in the case of Luke, there is plenty of info in the EU that he too had a certain affinity. To me that means that he is Force sensitive with one or two talents from the Force aligned specialisations. Of course, heaven forbid, its all narrative commentary.

Ultimately, its a thematic choice choice for my campaigns as a GM. If you have it, you have it - not matter how large or small, but if you don't, you don't. Simple.

Could a story element activate a character's sensitivity to the force? Absolutely - and I would probably look at that if a player came to me and said, "You know plot point X? Could we perhaps twist that so that X somehow provides my character with the ability to use the force?"

Just my 2 credits worth.

I'd disagree.

From Star Wars Legends, we've got examples of folks who were latent Force-sensitives and didn't really know of it (i.e. didn't have any Force powers) until Luke came along and brought them up to speed. Luke himself probably counts as well. having started as either an Explorer/Fringer or Ace/Pilot and his exceptional piloting skills being narratively associated with the Force by mechanically represented with him having 2 ranks in both Piloting skills when most folks would only have one rank at best. The Obi-Wan comes along, clues the kid in on the Force, and Luke's player grabs Emergent and the Sense power during that fateful trip to Alderaan.

It would ultimately depend on the player. If eventually becoming Force-sensitive was something that they'd made clear long before doing it and they can provide a satisfying story reason for the change, then I say let them do so.

The only time I'd nix a PC becoming Force-sensitive after character creation is if it's clear the player is only doing it to become more powerful.

those characters all actually took a force sensitive spec at birth. they just never bought any powers.

if you want to be force sensitve, take the spec. you pay a (small) force tax at first, but you get the potential for awesome stuff.

there's nothing wrong with min/maxing to have your force cake and eat it too, but i don't like the idea. too gamey for my tastes.

I don't worry about it. Take it now, take it later, it makes no difference to me.

I think we should avoid using "Force Sensitive" as "Force Rating" in our minds.

In canon, Leia is stated to step into Luke's role as the New Hope if he fails.
Nothing about her is overtly Force-Using unless you squint. She didn't even ping on her father's radar during a traumatic time when one could argue that unintentional Force use would have occurred.
Behind the scenes, she was not written as the second Skywalker until two-thirds into the whole story, so any attempts to show that she had it the whole time would be retconning (which I am 100% OK with), but she still establishes that a character can be powerful enough in the Force as to figure into galactic destiny and yet not show a single hint of "supernatural ability".

Prior to the midichlorian reveal, my circle of freinds (several of whom are among my group of players) all generally agreed that people of the proper mindset could learn the ways of the Force, like a martial art.

To some, like the Skywalkers, this would come MUCH more naturally.

We have taken this idea into our games, somewhat.

I may be alone here but I have ruled that if you don't get Force Sensitivity at the time of character creation, you can't get it later. Basically this means you either start with a career from F&D that gives your a Force Rating, or you buy either of the two force related Universal Specialisations (by spending 20 points) at the time of character creation.

poor Leia and Katarn, they will never become a Jedi

Obviously I disagree with this ruling, but I understand and appreciate the spirit behind it.

I may be alone here but I have ruled that if you don't get Force Sensitivity at the time of character creation, you can't get it later. Basically this means you either start with a career from F&D that gives your a Force Rating, or you buy either of the two force related Universal Specialisations (by spending 20 points) at the time of character creation.

The main reason I don't agree with this is the implication that Force Sensitivity comes at the expense of some other characteristic. Force Sensitives aren't less brawny, agile, intelligent, etc than the general population.

You can't take away their FR, but you can take away their Sil 4–8 vehicles to throw! Just because they can throw a Star Destroyer doesn't mean there's always going to be one to throw.

Insofar as that goes, that’s true. However, that becomes a “chilling effect” on the game. Now, in addition to everything else, when the party is going to meet the BBEG, you have to make sure that there isn’t anything around that is bigger than Sil 1.

Moreover, once they get the FR, etc…, to juggle Star Destroyers, that can be channeled into other things that are just about as equally damaging to the game.

IMO, you’re better off if the rules are such that they just can’t get to that point, period.

Of course, YMMV.

But if he's a BBEG, then he'd have a few ranks in Adversary, yes? Just because a Force-user can throw things doesn't mean they can hit the target. Remember that the Move power requires a Discipline check, and follows all the rules of a ranged attack. Range-based difficulty, target's talents, defense, soak, etc. And unless you're staging all your encounters in vehicle hangars, you're not that likely to have sil3+ items just hanging around.

I may be alone here but I have ruled that if you don't get Force Sensitivity at the time of character creation, you can't get it later. Basically this means you either start with a career from F&D that gives your a Force Rating, or you buy either of the two force related Universal Specialisations (by spending 20 points) at the time of character creation.

Wow. Just…wow. The book specifically says you can take the FSEx/Em at any time. Not having the spec doesn't mean you're not Force sensitive, it means you haven't started to hone your skills yet. Every PC has the chance to become a Force user, until it's proven that they can't. Initial career/spec choices have no bearing whatsoever on what specs they can take later on in their adventuring career.

-EF

You can't take away their FR, but you can take away their Sil 4–8 vehicles to throw! Just because they can throw a Star Destroyer doesn't mean there's always going to be one to throw.

Insofar as that goes, that’s true. However, that becomes a “chilling effect” on the game. Now, in addition to everything else, when the party is going to meet the BBEG, you have to make sure that there isn’t anything around that is bigger than Sil 1.

Moreover, once they get the FR, etc…, to juggle Star Destroyers, that can be channeled into other things that are just about as equally damaging to the game.

IMO, you’re better off if the rules are such that they just can’t get to that point, period.

Of course, YMMV.

i thought activating upgrades more than once is only allowed if it is explicitly stated that this is possible? the strength upgrade of move doesn't state that.

so anything > sil 4 is off limits, right? am i imaginig things?

The errata changed that, though. It now can be activated multiple times. Personally I'm not a fan of that change, and will discuss it with any player who wants to take the Move power.

-EF