Illithidelderbrain said:

Being a /b/tard, I'm shocked you don't know about WoW pr0n. There's lots of hot orc on orc action. Quite disturbing. Quick! Change the subject!

When I first read the Spore idea, i thought it was an interesting idea, but it dodn't appear in my games until someone with a good imagination posted about the Tubourdours (I'm sorry i've forgotten who it was, if you are reading). Great idea, came into my game and my players then learnt, through these strange people they met in the Drakwald, that Greenskins breed through spores. However, my players accepted this just a little too easily for my liking, so when they were in Altdorf they got in a discussion and were riduled for believing that Orcs breeded through spores (that bumpkin tale? You uneducated folk do say the most amusing tales). Now my players got confused as to if Orcs were Greenskins, so room for more ridicule. The fact of teh matter was that they heard 2 different opinions from 2 different NPCs and were having trouble as they were contradictory.

In my mind, i had various ideas about greenskins procreation, and more importantly various ideas about why different NPCs would have different ideas about greenskin procreation . The actual truth is irrelevent. If the heart of the Sun for the Warhammer world is made of plasma or cheese will have no effect on the characters/players of my game ... but if 2 religions have opposing views about it and go to war accordingly - that might be relevent.

Bertolac said:

Betolac, great post, I hope everyone read it, I only quoted the part above as it's planted the seed of an idea in my mind of an adventure based on the Snotling vs Badger fights acted out daily underneath the tended fileds of the Empire farmers.

ORcs are not plants they are humanoid monsters, does that answer the quiestion?

And after all I think Jay owes us a session demo video

Armrek said:

No, it changes the question from 'How do Orcs reproduce?' to 'How do Humanoid Monsters reproduce?'. Are they built in a lab like Frankensteins creation? Do they convert other humanoids by drinking thier blood? Do they implant thier seed in farmyard animals, which then uses the hosts genetic material to create a hybrid?

Mal Reynolds said:

Where are you getting your information from that says Orcs are mammals? Everything I have come across says that they are "Goblinoids" thus they can be classified as "humanoid" from common Fantasy classifications (if you have a book for Warhammer that actually calls them that I would like to know). From my knowledge on the etymology of the word "Humanoid" it merely means human like. Now if you just look at it as meaning that they are human like that doesn't go without saying that they are actually mammals. Instead it can merely mean that they are humanesque in appearance not that they are anything biologically like a human. Thus they could be an actual fungal person.

Mal Reynolds said:

If you saying that you can have what ever you want in your world why must there be an official view, let alone one that only goes off of your personal preference?

Theoderek said:

You`re raising some interesting questions there. That orcs are mammals are just an assumption to back up my argumentation that they are not plants. I use the logical evolution theory, which says that if a species have similar look and apperance as say humans, they must have other qualities that are similar to say humans as well. Therefore no fish will ever look like an human, nor will there be no fungi or plant that look or behave as human. But since Warhammer is a fantasy game, lets move away from the more evolutional terms like mammals.

lets call them what you said "Goblinoids, and as you assumed can be classified as humanoid. Why would game desingers use such classifications? I would think it is beacuse they look similiar to each other (i,e are bipedal, relative intelligent and so on), but not only in apperance, but beahavioral ways, cultural ways, and that they create perhaps tools. But also to reflect similar biology?

Here is another major assumption.

The player races of warhammer are also humanoids, and we assume without much evidence, that they breed and give birth to offsprings very much like mammals do in other worlds.

We take it for granted that elves and halflings and even dwarfs mate and breed pretty much like humans. Now Why would people assume that? Because they have been categorized as humanoids.

Your argument of a fungi person is not a flawed conclusion I think. A fungi person, is I think you mean an intelligent fungi with humanoid shapes and form. But it is not neccesarily a humanoid, beacause its bipedal, can walk and think. Its biology is that of an plant a fungi, thus it will be classifed as plant creature or some sort. Biology is important to classify creatures, Just beacuse its looks like a humanoid doesn`t make it a humanoid. Following your own flawed argument, a fish looking similar to a human, would cease to be a fish and become a humanoid, even though it had gills and swimmed in the water, or become a fish person as you eloquently put it( you actually said fungi person) I myself is cat person.

I could be wrong ofcourse my well-thought arguments can be completely destroyed by the whims of a game designer. But if an orc is a humanoid, it will have similar biology of that of other humanoids.

And now Why would a fantasy roleplaying game have a offical setting? Its go without saying. someone must say that: no we don`t have half-elves in warhammer, that is the official view of it. But as a GM you can do what you want. But don`t expect books about half-elves.

And somebody should say: Sorry orcs are not fungal persons, thats the offical view for the offical setting for Warhammer.

Thanks for your comments.

Mal Reynolds said:

I like the LoTR imagery where an orc come to life as a tumor burrow deep in the breast of mother earth. Orcs are an earth disease, the dark spawn of Taal & Rhya. Bring forth the barrels of oil, the land need to be cleanse.

jadrax said:

jadrax said:

Now that is an intriquing argument.I t raises one fundamental question: How can plant cells make animal cells? which basically is the meat you`re talking about. It would have to be magic in that case, and that would make orcs magical humanoids. or even a creation of chaos, or mutated by chaos. The possibilites could be many.

One plausible way that could be possible is that the fungus or spores would act like an adopted vomb in which the offspring could grow. But I have hard time seeing the symbiotic relationship in that. What does the fungus gain by fostering and orc? If there are parts of the orc that is made of fungus, than yes there could be some sort of symbiotic relationship about the reproduction.

but if no fungus genes take part in and are reproduced togheter with the orc genes there is hardly any symbiose at all. The fungus would be exploited since its gene will not be part of the genetical construction for the orc.

enought said, I still would go for RUMPY PUMPY

Mal Reynolds said:

Mal Reynolds said:

Interesting, but the only problem I have portains to it being a chaos mutation or a creation from chaos. The reason for this will probably get me shot by many of the WFRP fans as I'm going to dig out a bit of information from the Lizardman Army book. In their time line it says that they fought the Greenskins and found it near impossible to "eliminate this parasitic race from existence" (Lizardmen Armies 2003 copyright, page 8). These conflicts happened prior to the destruction of the gates that flooded the world with chaos and the departure of the old ones. As there are also references to mistakes make by the Old Ones, I would like to think that they are an unforeseen mistake or maybe a natural evolution, it would also indicate that whatever method they actually have for reproduction and their biology was already a feature of their initial creation/evolution.

Also on the different breeds, although a bit dated on the information and might no longer be valid, in the old Chaos Dwarves Army book, the black orcs were created by them to be better warriors in their armies before they lead a revolt and escaped their masters.

Thats basically how it works, the Orc reproductive tubours (sometimes known as Brugs) release spores that create a fungal 'Earth Womb' in which the new 'Goblinoid' grows, which its exact race determined by location. So Spores that land near volcanic areas form Fire Kobolds, while spores landing somewhere that the Goblinoids need to fight for survival form Orcs. Remember that the Orcs are not a natural creature, there a race that arrived on the Warhammer World as 'insidious spores' attached to Old One Warpships. They are in all likelyhood genetically engineered as a disposable servant cast by a more more advanced (and conventional) species.

/QUOTE]

Could you site the sources for this information? This is the first time hearing of this.

I've never heard of that either, but it kind of sounds good. Where exactly do the reproductive tubers come from? Are they in their feces? That might explain why they are always smearing and piling it everywhere. Maybe someone could explain the whole process a little better?

PS – This has turned out to be a good thread/discussion, thanks to everyone who contributed.

Not really related to their... uhm... origin... but something that may help... speculate...

I remember a bit of flavour text from the Ork expansion of Warhammer Quest. It was about the finding of a scholar who did research of Orks (he didn't find how they pop up either), and noticed how the bigger Orks were always in charge. He found out or speculated (it's been too long to clearly remember) that it wasn't the fact the Orks were bigger that they were in charge, but the other way around, that they became bigger BECAUSE they were in charge.

If this is true, it would make sense that they're spores, since plants grow better if they're payed attention to (or in the case of weeds, if not payed attention to).

I just have to say it, Fungus/Mushrooms are not plants - they are a seperate species.

--

Also, mixing different GW sources is a bit hard to do. As they contradict each others the older the source gets. Before the Fantasy and 40k settings where in the same place, but now they have drifted more apart from one another.

So if orcs/orks shed spores like 40k or not, well thats hard to know. But in the last few years no female orcs is ever mentioned, so I think the offical stance are that there are no gender among the orcs at all.

Theoderek said:

The White Dwarf 'Goblin Ecology' talks about the adaptation based on local terrain. Whie 'Brugs' is the ame for orc erm... bits.. in the Chaos Marauders card game. Gorkamora for Warhammer 40k has I think the most detailed amount of information, although as KjetilKverndokken points out, you have to be careful none of it is contradicted by anything that has come later. I cant find it but at the BI forums Kate Flack stated that if there was an offical WFRP guide to 'Orcs and Goblin' the spore reproduction would have to be used to keep in line with GWs policy on background (which has also been used as a reason by some people as to why such a book never happened). There is also a few quotes from Paul Barnett, the creative director for WAR and Games Workshop liaison to EA/Mythic like 'Five of the races have male and female. Greenskins do not, since they are space fungus [orcs and goblins grow from spores in the Warhammer universe]' and 'The Orcs come from mushroom/fungi that are left behind after the creation of a WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH. Orcs and goblins are actually asexual creatures but are physically portrayed as masculine.'

jadrax said:

This matches the description I saw of Ork (40k) reproduction I saw in (I think) an old 40k ork army codex. There was a nice fluff piece on ork reproduction, including a picture of an ork in gestation under the ground

The Waaagh psychic field already exists at this stage and determines what type of goblinoid the spore will produce. Simply sprouting orcs isn't a good idea - without any support structure the orcs will die. So if there is no goblinoid presence in the area it produces squigs and goblins. The goblins herd the squigs for food and start building structures for shelter. Once a goblinoid infrastructure is established orcs are born.

Weirdly, I just saw Stephen Fry claim that Fungi have far more in common with Animals than Plants.

If I recall in the boxed game GORKAMORKA GW's version of madmax road warriors, they explained with diagrams how orcs are spores, and how they grow and mature underground and pop out of the earth womb like mushrooms one night. They had pictures of this lol.

Maybe inspired by this topic:

At the moment, I'm desigining a Goblin Stronghold in an old Silvermine (D&D players may call it a Dungeon )

Assuming the rumpy-pumpy theory would be the correct one, when would they do it? Like animals, in spring? Permanently, like we do? And if, always with the same female? So, would there be any males in the female areas for defense purposes or would the females defend themselves (are they allowed to carry weapons) because males are not allowed in there?

Hm. Probably I should stick to spores...?

I think I'll go with RUMPY PUMPY because I like saying RUMPY PUMPY.

RUMPY PUMPY.

RUMPY RUMPY RUMPY RUMPY

I am at a loss here. Despite my arguments people tend to go for SPORES, SPORES. And that`s fine. Because I am winded, I only have one grenade left, I am tossing it do you SPORES people, hoping its not a blind.

THEORY 1) SPORES, SPORES THE BOARDGAME WAY. It seems that the entire notion of SPORES comes from GW boardgames and GW miniature battle games, such as Gorkha-Morkha. No places in any warhammer rpg books does it mention SPORES, right? wheter it being 1st edition or 2nd edition. So lets asume and establish this as a fact,the SPORES Theory comes fom boardgames and miniature battle booklets.

THEORY 2) RUMPY, RUMPY, THE RPG WAY. There is no evidence of female orcs in 2nd edition, but the 2nd edition neither support either of the THEORIES. Even in the first edition there is little evidence or any talk of how the orcs reproduce or in fact how the greenskins at all reproduce. That was until "Empire in Flames" arrived at the scene in 1989, written by Carl Sargent. In this book some interesting details concerning GOBLINS excist.

The Goblins of Kadar-Khalizad, which is the part of the Broken Nose tribe have communal areas for sprogs (goblin children), which are usually being looked after by several Yoooslus or YOBs (old goblins). As with the children the goblin females are kept separated from the rest of the tribe. If that isn`t enough the module desinger have different stats for female goblins, Sprogs & YOBs.

THE TRAGIC STORY OF BILIOUS & SLIMER

Bilious is a black orc who together with Slimmer his half-orc female girlfriend where captured by the goblins. And unfortunately both where slain immediately after their captivity ended, by my party. They didn`t believe in the black orc`s tragic love story. Complete characteristics for Slimer the half-orc female, can be found in EiF.

So my THEORY 2) says, there is evidently proof of that female orcs an certainly female goblins exist in the 1st edition. Even though the second edition don`t mention the excistene of female orcs, we may assume such, since there is proof of it in the 1st.

For Game masters and persons interesting in greenskins reproduction there is only 2 available options for them. And both have valid points. these are:

1) THE BOARDGAME WAY: SPORES, SPORES!
2) THE ROLEPLAYING GAME WAY: RUMPY, RUMPY!

Both ways can be right, it all depends on what information available you will use. I for myself will only go with the RPG information. In that perspective I am old-schooler, only RPG informations will be used to back up my arguments. I don`t say that people who prefer SPORES are wrong, but Its not my style. In my warhammer world I find female orcs and orc children fare more interesting than the SPORE theory.

I dont think there is anything wrong with deciding that orcs will reproduce ib the tradiional mamalian way, I just would not expect any support for the idea officially. A more interesting question is how do think Squig's reproduce.

jadrax said:

In 40k squigs are a kind of ork, same as gretchin and snotlings are. Basically ork spores can produce a number of different kind of creature (possibly including mushrooms, I'm not sure). The type of creature that is produced varies depending on the environment and number of greenskins present in the area. Usually squigs are one of the first things to be produced (to serve as foodstuff), then gretchin to herd them.

Interestingly if surrounding environment or greenskin numbers changes while something is being grown the spore will be able to dedect the changes. It may then destroy whatever it was producing and replace it with something more suitable. For example, if there are sufficient numbers of squigs and gretchin in an area, the spores will start to grow orks. If the squigs and gretchin are then killed, however, the spores will destroy the orks in the 'womb' (which would starve to death if they were allowed to grow to maturity) and produce more squigs instead.

I wish orks reproduced like gremlins: if they get hit by a certain substance (or eat a certain kind of mushroom, perhaps?), baby greenskins pop out of gross blisters in their backs.

I think I've come up with a third option - greenskin numbers are swelled by confidence. Confidence is fuelled by killing and destroying and depleted by lack of things to kill and smash. The more confident a mob of orcs is, the more orcs mysteriously appear. The orcs are used to this and think nothing of it. Fresh greenskins appear - fully matured and armoured - where no one else is looking. We're talking a kind of metaphysical, Schrodinger's cat thing here, or possibly the old 'tree in a forest' conundrum.

(This idea comes partially from the 40k concept (held by the Imperium) that ork technology works not due to any particular ingenuity, but due to a strong psychic belief in the orks that it ought to work. For the same reason, ork vehicles painted red can achieve higher speeds, because red wunz go fasta.)