NOVA Squadron Radio – Episode 25 “Wave 6 – Most Wanted Part 2!”
Welcome to NOVA Squadron Radio! Sorry for the delay, editing over the holiday took a bit of time. This week we continue our analysis of Most Wanted when we review the Firesprays and the Hawks. In the news we discuss Worlds and Nationals schedules, the new Summer kit, and review some data coming out of Regionals. All of that and a lot more!
NOVA Squadron Radio is:
Ed Horne – Host
Kris Soehnlin – Co-Host and NOVA Squadron founding member
Ronald Brannan – Co-Host and NOVA Squadron founding member
Chad Brown – Co-Host/Editor
Sean Dorcy – Co-host
Bob Randall – Co-host
Kris Sherriff – Co-host
Here are the show notes from Episode 25:
[0:00 – 1:29] Show Opening
[1:29 – 19:49] The Flightdeck: What we have been flying lately and local tournament talk
[19:49 –1:17:21] The News:
News: NOVA Open 2015: Registration is open! http://www.novaopen.com/
-September 3-6 at the Hyatt Regency NOVA Open 2015 Star Wars X-Wing™ Narrative Campaign: "Ascent of the Dark Side"
-Wargames Con 2015 June 18-21 Austin, TX http://www.wargamescon.com/2015/04/were-back.html
[1:17:21 – 2:14:45] Main Topic 1: Most Wanted Part 2!
[2:14:45 – 2:18:14] Show Closing!
Musical Credits go out to the band ‘Insane Ride’ and their songs ‘Sound of Rock and Roll’ and ‘Wrong or Right’ found on the Free Music Archive at http://freemusicarchive.org/
Thanks for listening, and talk to you again in two weeks!
Here is the direct link: http://novasquadronradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/NOVA_Squadron_Radio_Episode_25_final.mp3
www.novasquadronradio.com
NOVA Squadron Radio – Episode 25 “Wave 6 – Most Wanted Part 2!”
Still listening to the show, but RE: BBBBZ, Theorist actually predicted back in February that this list was only doing well because it was optimized to win by MOV in 60 minute rounds in Store Championships and that the list would do poorly in a setting with 75 minute rounds. Looks like he was right.
Here's the article: http://teamcovenant.com/theorist/2015/02/19/smart-money-the-60-minute-round/
I think 4BZ performs against 1 tough nut, but two is a real challenge. Soontir + whisper or engine Chiraneau + Fel is rough.
Enjoying the podcast. I'll be curious to hear your thoughts on 2xIGs after the Roseville regional and its success with VI. Joe won outright, but another player went 5-1 with the same build but didn't make the top 8 (tenth).
Edited by AlexWStill listening to the show, but RE: BBBBZ, Theorist actually predicted back in February that this list was only doing well because it was optimized to win by MOV in 60 minute rounds in Store Championships and that the list would do poorly in a setting with 75 minute rounds. Looks like he was right.
Here's the article: http://teamcovenant.com/theorist/2015/02/19/smart-money-the-60-minute-round/
That isn't exactly what he predicted. He said BBBBZ was strong in 60 minute rounds due to the point breakdown, but that all depends on how the opponent has also costed their ships. He made no prediction that it would do poorly in 75 minute rounds. You could infer that he was saying it would do worse, but that is not necessarily poorly.
Though he doesn't say this, all of his statements hold true for any games that go to time, and it is just that a higher proportion of 60 minute games go to time.
I don't mean this to denigrate Theorist's point in any way, it is an excellent and insightful article, but I've repeatedly seen this article used as ammunition to make the point that "BBBBZ is only good due to 60 minute rounds", and I've never been able to read it as saying that.
BBBBZ is a strong list. Stronger in 60 minute rounds. And stronger if your ship costs don't match favorably against it. But not having those things doesn't make it terrible.
Edited by GiraffeandZebraBBBBZ is actually poor in the MoV department compared to any 2 ship list, and even in untimed games. Honestly I think the biggest factor is Regionals attracts a different caliber of list. Swarms are not that caliber with the current scoring system and the ability to get viable 2 ship lists since wave 4+, and especially since wave 6. The name of the game is victory (by MoV) and then MoV for tiebreakers. I didn't go into the stats on Fat lists vs just turrets, but Fat lists are an even larger factor than turrets.
NO 5+ ship list has won a Regionals yet. In many of these tournaments, there are 6 rounds and you need to get 25 points to make the cut. That either means going 5-1 with 5 full wins, or 4 full wins and up to 2 modified wins. Put another way, if you have a SINGLE modified victory, you need to win the other 5 games to make the cut. 2 losses or a loss and a modified win, and you're out. Swarms of any kind are simply at too much risk of getting modified wins to be "reliable" in a high level tournament. I would love to see some start winning tournaments, but they are simply the dark horse right now.
Edited by MajorJugglerI thought it was curious how the members of Nova Squadron like Kath the best of the Firespray pilots and stated not to force her ability. Couldn't the same argument be made for Fett? I personally think I like Fett a little more because their abilities are about equal to me but the fact Fett can get PS10 edges her out. Between his ability to reroll at range 1 and PS10 should give him a little more of a defensive advantage over Kath.
BBBBZ is actually poor in the MoV department compared to any 2 ship list, and even in untimed games. Honestly I think the biggest factor is Regionals attracts a different caliber of list. Swarms are not that caliber with the current scoring system and the ability to get viable 2 ship lists since wave 4+, and especially since wave 6. The name of the game is victory (by MoV) and then MoV for tiebreakers. I didn't go into the stats on Fat lists vs just turrets, but Fat lists are an even larger factor than turrets.
NO 5+ ship list has won a Regionals yet. In many of these tournaments, there are 6 rounds and you need to get 25 points to make the cut. That either means going 5-1 with 5 full wins, or 4 full wins and up to 2 modified wins. Put another way, if you have a SINGLE modified victory, you need to win the other 5 games to make the cut. 2 losses or a loss and a modified win, and you're out. Swarms of any kind are simply at too much risk of getting modified wins to be "reliable" in a high level tournament. I would love to see some start winning tournaments, but they are simply the dark horse right now.
Hence why partial points are needed.
surprised there's no Emperor Palatine discussion.
Palpatine was spoiled after we recorded.
I thought it was curious how the members of Nova Squadron like Kath the best of the Firespray pilots and stated not to force her ability. Couldn't the same argument be made for Fett? I personally think I like Fett a little more because their abilities are about equal to me but the fact Fett can get PS10 edges her out. Between his ability to reroll at range 1 and PS10 should give him a little more of a defensive advantage over Kath.
I think Kath is probably better with a mini-swarm or some Y's while Boba is a solid ps10 anchor for a 2-ship list.
Itunes subscription no longer working =(
Oh, and MJ. Recon specialist is significantly better in practice than k4 on Palob with title. I tried it in game and I was consistently living longer AND had a target lock for almost every shot anyways. Opportunist Palob is a completely disgusting ship. For a Fel or Corran or other interceptors he is the most frustrating opponent imaginable.
TasteTheRainbow ~ That's a good point about Boba. His stock should be higher in this two ship meta. His ability should in a way be stronger too since less swarms means less ships to focus him down @ range 1.
Oh, and MJ. Recon specialist is significantly better in practice than k4 on Palob with title. I tried it in game and I was consistently living longer AND had a target lock for almost every shot anyways.
It can be better, but it depends on how it plays out. I certainly disagree that Recspec is universally significantly better.
Actions before combat:
RecSpec Palob: 2 (double focus bank)
K4 Palob: 1 (single focus bank)
Actions during combat, no bump:
RecSpec Palob: 1 or 2 (target lock or double focus bank)
K4 Palob: 2 (free TL + focus)
Actions during combat, with bump:
RecSpec Palob: 0
K4 Palob: 1 (free TL)
Recon Spec builds up more tokens initially, but once the engagement happens he only gets 1 action per turn if you target lock to get the equivalent damage output. RecSpec version also gets zero if he bumps, and intentionally bumping can be a very viable strategy to limit incoming fire. (Anything you can do to make him live longer...) So either have their tradeoffs. Strictly speaking, for K4 to "break even" with the total number of actions taken compared to RecSpec, Palob needs to be in combat for the same number of rounds as he was pre-charging for. However, you can't strictly look at the total number of actions taken, because if he dies quickly with RecSpec then he frequently still has a pile of focus tokens on him, so it didn't really buy you anything.
Typically Palob pre-charges for 2-3 rounds (slow roll and combat on the 3rd or 4th round), so the K4 version starts the first firing combat phase with a TL and 3-5 focus tokens (pre-charge 2-3, plus 1 in first combat round, plus 0-1 focus steal). RecSpec would equivalently have a TL and 4 - 7 focus tokens (pre-charge 4-6, 0 in first combat round since you TL instead, plus 0-1 focus steal). So RecSpec realistically has 1-2 extra focus tokens to start, and then K4 starts to take over. RecSpec has the advantage of being able to dial your offense back and keep getting 2x focus in the scrum combat rounds to maintain plenty of focus tokens on defense.
Of course actual in-game tactics can vary the results wildly. I have intentionally stayed away from Palob in tournament play because:
- Any list with Palob has poor MoV compared to mainstream Fat Lists like dual IG-88.
- The range 1-2 limitation coupled with being mid PS means you'll have some games where he explodes before even firing once.
Opportunist Palob is a completely disgusting ship. For a Fel or Corran or other interceptors he is the most frustrating opponent imaginable.
Yeah, opportunist is auto-include on Palob, in my opinion.
I can usually get an 8-bank of focus. Whenever he runs out of focus he just dies : /
And the critical turn for him is the first round of shooting. That is almost always a 2-hard or 3-forward followed by boost. After that it's just preventing them from getting a herd of generic guns trained on him. In the few games I tried with k4 it felt like bumping was my only option to get any use out of it. It's true you're usually doing greens anyways, but you're also often boosting, so you need the largest focus bank you can get to be able to shoot at all(assuming your opponent knows not to feed him).
The real problem with him is the Carnor Jax and Rebel Captive shutdowns.
Edited by TasteTheRainbow
That isn't exactly what he predicted. He said BBBBZ was strong in 60 minute rounds due to the point breakdown, but that all depends on how the opponent has also costed their ships. He made no prediction that it would do poorly in 75 minute rounds. You could infer that he was saying it would do worse, but that is not necessarily poorly.
[snip]
I guess I did infer that prediction from his article, and I agree that worse would have been a better choice of words than poorly, since obviously the list is still making top 8 but I'll bet it's overrepresented in the Swiss rounds compared to how many are showing up in top 8.
Greedo is going to ride shotgun with Boosk. Especially with the 6 shields and 3 crew slots.
Good cast guys. I would like to talk a little bit about bombs. It seems like most of you guys don't like them which I can understand, but I would like you to reconsider them. One thing about bombs in this game is that it's a 100% skill based. Knowing how and when to drop bombs is all skill. Emon at PS 6 is in what I think is the perfect spot for his PS. For all the PS 7 + ships they are Prox mine targets. I've killed multiple Soontirs with prox mines and those 3 points have always been well spent. His PS 6 is also going to beat out all the support ships that you are seeing so the Charges/Proton bombs are pretty much always going to hit. I think the reason you don't see this as much is because it's so Skill intensive. If you don't practice this skill you will fail with it and then you will lose interest. Bombs take practice and a good sense of distance for accurate placement.
Good cast guys. I would like to talk a little bit about bombs. It seems like most of you guys don't like them which I can understand, but I would like you to reconsider them. One thing about bombs in this game is that it's a 100% skill based. Knowing how and when to drop bombs is all skill. Emon at PS 6 is in what I think is the perfect spot for his PS. For all the PS 7 + ships they are Prox mine targets. I've killed multiple Soontirs with prox mines and those 3 points have always been well spent. His PS 6 is also going to beat out all the support ships that you are seeing so the Charges/Proton bombs are pretty much always going to hit. I think the reason you don't see this as much is because it's so Skill intensive. If you don't practice this skill you will fail with it and then you will lose interest. Bombs take practice and a good sense of distance for accurate placement.
Edited by TasteTheRainbow
Greedo is going to ride shotgun with Boosk. Especially with the 6 shields and 3 crew slots.
Especially if Bossk crew ability lets you toss a crew for any reason.
Good cast guys. I would like to talk a little bit about bombs. It seems like most of you guys don't like them which I can understand, but I would like you to reconsider them. One thing about bombs in this game is that it's a 100% skill based. Knowing how and when to drop bombs is all skill. Emon at PS 6 is in what I think is the perfect spot for his PS. For all the PS 7 + ships they are Prox mine targets. I've killed multiple Soontirs with prox mines and those 3 points have always been well spent. His PS 6 is also going to beat out all the support ships that you are seeing so the Charges/Proton bombs are pretty much always going to hit. I think the reason you don't see this as much is because it's so Skill intensive. If you don't practice this skill you will fail with it and then you will lose interest. Bombs take practice and a good sense of distance for accurate placement.
I couldn't agree more. Emon is perfectly positioned, pilot skill wise, to carry multiple kinds of bombs for different kinds of targets.
Need to hose some low PS eyeballs or B-wings? Proton Bomb (or Seismic Charge) to the rescue.
Need to ruin Soontir Fel's day? Proximity Mine is waiting for your call.
Emon is awesome because he can carry both kinds of bombs for whichever mission he is called upon to fulfill (or whatever meta you expect to encounter).
In a world that has so many green dice going around, bombs are still viable and fun but require a bit of practice and perseverance to land them with regularity.
Good cast guys. I would like to talk a little bit about bombs. It seems like most of you guys don't like them which I can understand, but I would like you to reconsider them. One thing about bombs in this game is that it's a 100% skill based. Knowing how and when to drop bombs is all skill. Emon at PS 6 is in what I think is the perfect spot for his PS. For all the PS 7 + ships they are Prox mine targets. I've killed multiple Soontirs with prox mines and those 3 points have always been well spent. His PS 6 is also going to beat out all the support ships that you are seeing so the Charges/Proton bombs are pretty much always going to hit. I think the reason you don't see this as much is because it's so Skill intensive. If you don't practice this skill you will fail with it and then you will lose interest. Bombs take practice and a good sense of distance for accurate placement.
I couldn't agree more. Emon is perfectly positioned, pilot skill wise, to carry multiple kinds of bombs for different kinds of targets.
Need to hose some low PS eyeballs or B-wings? Proton Bomb (or Seismic Charge) to the rescue.
Need to ruin Soontir Fel's day? Proximity Mine is waiting for your call.
Emon is awesome because he can carry both kinds of bombs for whichever mission he is called upon to fulfill (or whatever meta you expect to encounter).
In a world that has so many green dice going around, bombs are still viable and fun but require a bit of practice and perseverance to land them with regularity.
Plus, the slingshot is just so good. We were just facing each other in each other's firing arcs at range 3? Well, now you have a prox mine in your face.
Edited by Ixidor
If only there was another podcast where you and other assorted guests could discuss this alternate view of bombs! But I haven't seen such a thing in so long...Good cast guys. I would like to talk a little bit about bombs. It seems like most of you guys don't like them which I can understand, but I would like you to reconsider them. One thing about bombs in this game is that it's a 100% skill based. Knowing how and when to drop bombs is all skill. Emon at PS 6 is in what I think is the perfect spot for his PS. For all the PS 7 + ships they are Prox mine targets. I've killed multiple Soontirs with prox mines and those 3 points have always been well spent. His PS 6 is also going to beat out all the support ships that you are seeing so the Charges/Proton bombs are pretty much always going to hit. I think the reason you don't see this as much is because it's so Skill intensive. If you don't practice this skill you will fail with it and then you will lose interest. Bombs take practice and a good sense of distance for accurate placement.
Sable Gryphon's Regional winning PS10 Boba + PS8 IG88 with Proton Bomb on Boba is downright terrifying for a PS6 BroBot player like myself.
Edited by MajorJuggler
If only there was another podcast where you and other assorted guests could discuss this alternate view of bombs! But I haven't seen such a thing in so long...Good cast guys. I would like to talk a little bit about bombs. It seems like most of you guys don't like them which I can understand, but I would like you to reconsider them. One thing about bombs in this game is that it's a 100% skill based. Knowing how and when to drop bombs is all skill. Emon at PS 6 is in what I think is the perfect spot for his PS. For all the PS 7 + ships they are Prox mine targets. I've killed multiple Soontirs with prox mines and those 3 points have always been well spent. His PS 6 is also going to beat out all the support ships that you are seeing so the Charges/Proton bombs are pretty much always going to hit. I think the reason you don't see this as much is because it's so Skill intensive. If you don't practice this skill you will fail with it and then you will lose interest. Bombs take practice and a good sense of distance for accurate placement.
Sable Gryphon's Regional winning PS10 Boba + PS8 IG88 with Proton Bomb on Boba is downright terrifying for a PS6 BroBot player like myself.
Proton bombs are game changers.