This is what I keep seeing on the Squad List forum. You either put one or both on your ships and roll with those 4 dice and then reroll some more.

I just posted this issue: The problem is these are astonishing upgrades. The jump from 3 ATK to 4 is humongous, and FCS is both cheap and reliable.

This is what I keep seeing on the Squad List forum. You either put one or both on your ships and roll with those 4 dice and then reroll some more.

Well, they certainly don't fit on my Interceptors or Generic Starvipers... so there's that... and I already find my defenders expensive so I don't like giving them a HLC... and my IG-88s prefer Advanced Sensors and a Mangler+Ion duo... so.... I really don't know what you're talking about.

HLC isn't cheap... It's costed almost exactly where it should.

And plenty of builds without it do just fine.

Amusingly we now have 2 threads insisting that two almost-exclusive things are required. HLC/fcs and turrets

Unless you're just talking specifically about IG's. Yes, those often need fcs and HLC.

Amusingly we now have 2 threads insisting that two almost-exclusive things are required. HLC/fcs and turrets

Unless you're just talking specifically about IG's. Yes, those often need fcs and HLC.

HLC isn't cheap... It's costed almost exactly where it should.

And plenty of builds without it do just fine.

It's cheap in a different way: It's a simple, no-nonsense way to improve firepower. The others may be cheaper in points (such as say, PTL for TL+Focus) but have other costs (Stress for TL, being a freaking ordinance with bad range restrictions, being $!#@ Expose or Opportunist, etc).

It's more in points... but those are points well spent! HLC for 7 is a LOT better in terms of 'providing a real, beneficial effect' than it's weight in Two Mangos, or especially ordinance. Also, it's usable on generics quite well: EPTs to improve output don't go on cheap and efficient generics.

HLC DOES have serious range restrictions. It would be broken in two ships in particular without that restriction.

HLC DOES have serious range restrictions. It would be broken in two ships in particular without that restriction.

Looking at ships with cannon slots:

B-Wing: No restriction, ATK4 in all ranges.

TIE/D: No restriction, ATK4 in all ranges

Lambda: No restriction, ATK4 in all ranges

Aggressor: No restriction, ATK4 in all ranges

Firespray: No restriction, ATK4 at all ranges

Syck: ATK3 at 1, ATK4 2-3

YT-2400: ATK3 at 1 (turr), ATK4 2-3 or Donut Hole ATK4 2-3.

So two ships, one of which is a trap (Syck), vs 5 others who have zero downside aside from cost of equipping the gun. And even on one of those 'range restricted' ships, it's still a tournament-winning ATK4 Turret!

HLC DOES have serious range restrictions. It would be broken in two ships in particular without that restriction.

Looking at ships with cannon slots:

B-Wing: No restriction, ATK4 in all ranges.

TIE/D: No restriction, ATK4 in all ranges

Lambda: No restriction, ATK4 in all ranges

Aggressor: No restriction, ATK4 in all ranges

Firespray: No restriction, ATK4 at all ranges

Syck: ATK3 at 1, ATK4 2-3

YT-2400: ATK3 at 1 (turr), ATK4 2-3 or Donut Hole ATK4 2-3.

So two ships, one of which is a trap (Syck), vs 5 others who have zero downside aside from cost of equipping the gun. And even on one of those 'range restricted' ships, it's still a tournament-winning ATK4 Turret!

The HLC is a strong upgrade but isn't so good for its price that it is an auto-include on any of the ships that can take.

B-Wing - I'd rather bring a 4th B-Wing than 3 HLC B-Bwings.

Lambda - Assuming that you are bringing the Shuttle to do damage, those 7 points would probably be more effectively spent on either FCS+Gunner or AS+EU.

Firespray - 7 points is a lot to spend on an upgrade that you'll likely be able to use on less than half your shots. Spending those 7 points on some combination of EPT, Crew, and Modification is almost always going to work out better for you.

The HLC on the Aggressor and Outrider have serious competition from the Mangler Cannon for different reasons. On the Outrider you lose a little damage and ditch the donut hole. On Aggressors you get a little more synergy with B's ability. Mangler makes guys like Soontir think twice about spending a token instead of letting just a bit of damage through and it allows the Gunner effect to work on a range one target.

HLCs are a good fit on Defenders but can make them even bigger point pinatas than they already are. An Ion Cannon or Flechette Cannon is nice cheap alternative for eliminating the extra green die at range 3 and can have some useful control as a side effect.

HLC DOES have serious range restrictions. It would be broken in two ships in particular without that restriction.

Looking at ships with cannon slots:

B-Wing: No restriction, ATK4 in all ranges.

TIE/D: No restriction, ATK4 in all ranges

Lambda: No restriction, ATK4 in all ranges

Aggressor: No restriction, ATK4 in all ranges

Firespray: No restriction, ATK4 at all ranges

Syck: ATK3 at 1, ATK4 2-3

YT-2400: ATK3 at 1 (turr), ATK4 2-3 or Donut Hole ATK4 2-3.

So two ships, one of which is a trap (Syck), vs 5 others who have zero downside aside from cost of equipping the gun. And even on one of those 'range restricted' ships, it's still a tournament-winning ATK4 Turret!

Wrong about aggressor. It matters quite a lot there. Range 1 HLC would preclude IG88B's existence, I think. And on anything with hull it can still matter if you get reduced primary.

HLC DOES have serious range restrictions. It would be broken in two ships in particular without that restriction.

Looking at ships with cannon slots:

B-Wing: No restriction, ATK4 in all ranges.

TIE/D: No restriction, ATK4 in all ranges

Lambda: No restriction, ATK4 in all ranges

Aggressor: No restriction, ATK4 in all ranges

Firespray: No restriction, ATK4 at all ranges

Syck: ATK3 at 1, ATK4 2-3

YT-2400: ATK3 at 1 (turr), ATK4 2-3 or Donut Hole ATK4 2-3.

So two ships, one of which is a trap (Syck), vs 5 others who have zero downside aside from cost of equipping the gun. And even on one of those 'range restricted' ships, it's still a tournament-winning ATK4 Turret!

Wrong about aggressor. It matters quite a lot there. Range 1 HLC would preclude IG88B's existence, I think. And on anything with hull it can still matter if you get reduced primary.

I'm not exactly sure what the previous peoples' points were. but if i may add, HLC is a wonderful design:

Its not undercosted. Its somewhat overcosted for dramatic effect. It contains restrictions that hamper it being useful under all circumstances and thus being an auto include.

HLC on Bs isn't worth it: as people have said: The naked B has an incredible statline efficiency. Its higher than the increase of dice from HLC in total efficiency. Due to increase in hull from adding a B.

Tie/D and B also suffer from paying the most to equip this for a single die increase. The Tie/D also costs too much already, and HLC isn't cost effective.

HLC follows a non-cost effective effect that pays off more you can fly it better. In direct jousting, having more hull is a better deal.

(On Vessery its notably useful, however you pay a tax on Vessery to build into ships that have TL capability or FCS for action economy, thus increasing related cost to HLC).

Lambda: Definitely useful here. But not auto include cuz the Lambda has such a poor dial and is easily outmaneuvered.

Aggressor: Definitely some use it here. Mangler is another choice, but HLC is very popular. However, using the Cannon-Gunner effect off B with a R1 shot will leave you no shot cuz you cant shoot HLC at R1. This is a low probability though due to 4 dice being rather accurate anyway.

In this case its good to place the HLC as more points on two hard to kill ships. Everyone knows why that is here. Bs are too easy to kill. IGs have 8hp ALSO and 3green and auto and possibly sensor jammer and more PS for arc dodging and way more movement options for that.

Firespray: Not worth it. Using a firespray effective requires liberal use of the rear arc. Also these ships are not cheap.

Used in some corner cases, but not meta reliable yet. Hint: I've used it to great effect, but you have to build around it and it does preclude a great many other upgrades.

Syck: Really useful here, but the ship is overcosted and fragile as we all know. Very effective point use though. HLC + Hull.

YT2400: Of course we all know how good this is. Mangler has not caught on as an obvious first choice. But on this ship, its basically an auto include, because it was meant to be.

So: on 1 ship auto include by design.

on 3 or 4 moderately useful

or 2 or 3 not really useful at all.

FCS is meta dependent. You wil be shooting at hard to kill usually only a few targets. So it retains high useful action economy. In a normal 4Reb style game, you wont get much use out of it as your targets change.

Also, Advsen is a lot more reliable action economy for 1 more point.

I've been using HLC on defenders since they came out its worth it Having four dice at all ranges let's them shine.

On an aggressor HLC with FCS adds much needed punch.

I just posted this issue: The problem is these are astonishing upgrades. The jump from 3 ATK to 4 is humongous, and FCS is both cheap and reliable.

You are right. FCS is like equipping half a Luke Skywalker.

I just posted this issue: The problem is these are astonishing upgrades. The jump from 3 ATK to 4 is humongous, and FCS is both cheap and reliable.

You are right. FCS is like equipping half a Luke Skywalker.

Which half are we in a mermaid situation here?

No, it's not needed in every build

As others have pointed out

No, it's not needed in every build

As others have pointed out

No they're wrong in this age of fat chirpy with the emperor on the board three dice no longer cuts it, the likes of the b-wing are made useless the day of his release only ships with cannon mounts and the phantom will have a chance!

HLC is a good upgrade to get some good synergies with. I don't use FCS as much. On B-Wings and Shuttles I prefer AdvSensors, and on E-Wings I prefer Sensor Jammers. FCS is a great upgrade, but in my lists at least it falls in the really good, but not as good as _______ problem.

I will admit, one of the reasons I avoid FCS is because it is so popular with other players.

yeah no

HLCs are essential for fat ships that eat up 50%+ of your list (Dash and Aggressors specifically, they're taking up that much space they have to put out as much damage as possible)

FCS is the most efficient damage system upgrade (Except for ATC on advance) but imo it's not nearly as auto-include. It really varies on the list, especially given the viability of sensors.

For B-wings specifically, FCS+ HLC is way too expensive and way too fragile to justify on a bsp

*naked B-wings are incredibly viable (BBBBZ)

*FCS B-wings are incredibly viable

*Tactician B-wings are incredibly viable (panic attack)

yeah no

HLCs are essential for fat ships that eat up 50%+ of your list (Dash and Aggressors specifically, they're taking up that much space they have to put out as much damage as possible)

FCS is the most efficient damage system upgrade (Except for ATC on advance) but imo it's not nearly as auto-include. It really varies on the list, especially given the viability of sensors.

For B-wings specifically, FCS+ HLC is way too expensive and way too fragile to justify on a bsp

*naked B-wings are incredibly viable (BBBBZ)

*FCS B-wings are incredibly viable

*Tactician B-wings are incredibly viable (panic attack)

You forgot Advanced Sensors B-Wings.

I just posted this issue: The problem is these are astonishing upgrades. The jump from 3 ATK to 4 is humongous, and FCS is both cheap and reliable.

sorry Killionare but is your brother Killimanjaro?

To the topic at hand you do have to keep damage output up with less ships. That's what HLC cannons do. The obvious choice is to get FCS so you can lock and focus or take another action for positioning.

yeah no

HLCs are essential for fat ships that eat up 50%+ of your list (Dash and Aggressors specifically, they're taking up that much space they have to put out as much damage as possible)

FCS is the most efficient damage system upgrade (Except for ATC on advance) but imo it's not nearly as auto-include. It really varies on the list, especially given the viability of sensors.

For B-wings specifically, FCS+ HLC is way too expensive and way too fragile to justify on a bsp

*naked B-wings are incredibly viable (BBBBZ)

*FCS B-wings are incredibly viable

*Tactician B-wings are incredibly viable (panic attack)

You forgot Advanced Sensors B-Wings.

And AC B-Wings

Firespray: Not worth it. Using a firespray effective requires liberal use of the rear arc. Also these ships are not cheap.

Used in some corner cases, but not meta reliable yet. Hint: I've used it to great effect, but you have to build around it and it does preclude a great many other upgrades.

HLC on Krassis is great. It just requires a different way of flying. Though on Scum Kath, it presents difficult options for the opponent.

Also, while HLC and Advanced Sensors are fine on B-wings, they are not worth only taking 3 B-wings or not taking a Z-95.