@ficklegreendice

I'm not sure what you are refering to? My last Statement?

A decent game designer will present new mechanics. A great one will innovate the ones you already have in amazing ways. The current xwing design team falls into that second category.

While it´s true that the math is off, which anyone who´ve played the game 2 times notice, it´s the wincons that hamstring development. However nice balanced the ships become design space is finite. There are just so many variants of 2/3, 3/2 or 3/3.

I love this game. Playing, hanging with people or just building squads alone. I think most people who have issues with the game are just overthinking it. Just have fun. Any game that is chance (dice) based is going to kick you in the junk at some point.

While it´s true that the math is off, which anyone who´ve played the game 2 times notice, it´s the wincons that hamstring development. However nice balanced the ships become design space is finite. There are just so many variants of 2/3, 3/2 or 3/3.

imo, the raw numbers ultimately pale i.t.o gameplay impact (in X-wing) compared to dials, actions, unique abilities, and unique upgrades

even the same exact ship cast across two different factions (Y-wings, z-95s, hwks, sprays etc.) become wildly different i.t.o of application because of the unique upgrades/wingmen available to them.

similarly, while the Z-95 and tie are almost mathematically identical i.t.o stats (or at least according to jousting value) there is no way in hell you're convincing anyone they are anything close to the same ship

Tie fighters and Tie Ints have almost identical stat lines except for the +1 red die. They are nowhere even near the same ship.

while I'd prefer my arch-nemsis not exist (yay armada !), so long as the designers can invent more unique ships and mechanics (especially given the room they are finally exploring in wave 7's ordinance + bombs and the invention of the unique S.L.A.M action) they can continue to play around the limitations of the stat-line until the space cows come home

While it´s true that the math is off, which anyone who´ve played the game 2 times notice

I don't think it is that easy to predict cost by play testing, otherwise we would not have ended up with some incorrectly costed generics in all 6 waves.

Btw. my original post wasnt about math but another problem i think X-Wing might have.

The real issue is that I don't on a real Tie Fighter. If I could only fly a real tie fighter and shoot real lasers at your real x-wing, then this game would be so much better. FFG please begin production on real star fighters. We are sick of this small plastic stuff.

Kind of like an RPG where you roll to hit, and then roll for damage. That could actually help the game.

Not really, 2 damage cap a turn really limits its effectiveness.

It actually doesn't, when you look at the math.

If you don't like how unpredictable the dice are, then try Armada. It removes the green dice all-together.

I think the OP had that in mind, yes.

In my mind, though, red dice aren't the problem. Having different kinds of dice to represent different kinds of attacks is clever, but the main thing Armada has going for it over X-wing is that it doesn't roll green dice. That gives the game a lot more consistency than X-wing has; the fewer dice in play, the smaller the available variance.

I agree with everything you have stated. However, I think we have gone a bit astray. I don't recall the OP specifically worrying about consistency. His thought (or at least the major part of it) is that a single type of attack (everyone fires red attack dice) doesn't give the game much freedom of design.

But that hasn't been the case at all! 7 Waves in and FFG continues to find new ways for ships to attack, defend, maneuver, and effect the game. It is the simplicity of the dice system that make that game approachable and easy to understand. The manipulation of the simple mechanics is what has us all spellbound. I'm thinking about and creating lists constantly!

I think two rolls vs one has too much potential to slow things down. It may not seem like much, but it is.

Kind of like an RPG where you roll to hit, and then roll for damage. That could actually help the game.

It could also lead to more complexity and make games take much longer (isn't one of the main tourney gripes the amount of time?)

The beauty of this game is how simple and intuitive it is. It needs to stick as close to that as possible. We start adding in "to hit" and "to wound" and "armor save" rolls we are no longer playing Xwing...we are playing something very different and wrecking the balance this game has done a **** good job of maintaining.

We don't need falcons and decimators being more difficult to kill in any form...

I don't know why people aren't really able to read the postulation that 'hit' and 'damage' do not need to be seperate rolls in this hypothetical what-if of game mechanics: This is the job of different attack dice, which doesn't slow down gameplay at all but adds a lot more potential variety.

Kind of like an RPG where you roll to hit, and then roll for damage. That could actually help the game.

It could also lead to more complexity and make games take much longer (isn't one of the main tourney gripes the amount of time?)

The beauty of this game is how simple and intuitive it is. It needs to stick as close to that as possible. We start adding in "to hit" and "to wound" and "armor save" rolls we are no longer playing Xwing...we are playing something very different and wrecking the balance this game has done a **** good job of maintaining.

We don't need falcons and decimators being more difficult to kill in any form...

That's not what I meant, I meant something like, e.g. A-wing shoots Squint, A-wing has an accuracy of 3, A-wing rolls 3 acc. dice vs. 3 agility dice, A-wing hits, rolls 2 damage dice to determine how much damage.

You can hit but roll all blanks and have it be just a scratch, or hit and deal massive damage.

You could have ships that are accurate but don't have much firepower, (A-wing example) and you can ships that are less accurate but have more brunt force (2400,Deci etc.)

You can differentiate between accuracy, and raw firepower. If an A-wing can hit consistently, wouldn't that be better than the B-wing that isn't as accurate, but can do more raw firepower?

Seperating the ability to hit from the ability to do damage is a significant increase in the complexity of the game. That level of complexity is clearly not the aim of X-wing. One of the biggest boons this game has is it's relative simplicity compared to other games.

Damage dice versus attack dice is problematic in RPGs where you expect complexity. I would definitely take additional colored dice and ships that could use them. Retrofits would be fine too, though it will mess up the easy color scheme in showing it to a new player (as in, I line up the red dice, the green dice, the yellow damage and the blue shield tokens on the bottom of his ship to show him how to easily keep track of what is what).

I'm not saying I think X-wing should have this, I'm just saying it could be an interesting mechanic that could've made ships with 2 attack much more viable.

If the A-wing/Advanced could be putting out 2 damage consistently, it would be better than a B-wing. Even X-wing's could benefit at being a hard hitter that's more accurate than the others.

That said, the game is fine as it is

A-Wings and TIE Fighters are hurting right now just because the developers have decided the steer the game towards high agility ships with lots of damage mitigation.

Just be patient, soon enough we will be back to ships that only roll 1 defense die and TIE Fighters and A-Wings will be useful again. In the mean time, if you want to do well with those ships, focus on learning how to block and shoot at range 1 where your swarm will have the advantage. Again, you are better served by focusing on the things you can change rather than the things you can't. Sure house rules are a thing, but then you're just playing your own made up game that nobody else is playing.

Not really, 2 damage cap a turn really limits its effectiveness.

It actually doesn't, when you look at the math.

If you don't like how unpredictable the dice are, then try Armada. It removes the green dice all-together.

I think the OP had that in mind, yes.

In my mind, though, red dice aren't the problem. Having different kinds of dice to represent different kinds of attacks is clever, but the main thing Armada has going for it over X-wing is that it doesn't roll green dice. That gives the game a lot more consistency than X-wing has; the fewer dice in play, the smaller the available variance.

I agree with everything you have stated. However, I think we have gone a bit astray. I don't recall the OP specifically worrying about consistency. His thought (or at least the major part of it) is that a single type of attack (everyone fires red attack dice) doesn't give the game much freedom of design.

That was sort of my point: I think the OP has identified a good solution, but it's in response to something I don't really see as a problem).

It's relatively easy, even in the existing structure of X-wing, to have an accurate attack that doesn't do much damage (like the Ion Cannon) or an attack that packs a huge punch when it connects (like Bossk) or an attack that's incredibly consistent (like Accuracy Corrector).

But it's much more difficult to get around the fact that an X-wing attacking a TIE fighter at range 2 can have a huge swing. It can do no damage at all, or it can kill the TIE outright. And that makes for a fun, fast-pace beginner's game, but the amount of noise means that--particularly if you have a pair of skilled, experienced players at the table--the dice are a proportionally large driver of the outcome.

That's not what I meant, I meant something like, e.g. A-wing shoots Squint, A-wing has an accuracy of 3, A-wing rolls 3 acc. dice vs. 3 agility dice, A-wing hits, rolls 2 damage dice to determine how much damage.

You can hit but roll all blanks and have it be just a scratch, or hit and deal massive damage.

You could have ships that are accurate but don't have much firepower, (A-wing example) and you can ships that are less accurate but have more brunt force (2400,Deci etc.)

You can differentiate between accuracy, and raw firepower. If an A-wing can hit consistently, wouldn't that be better than the B-wing that isn't as accurate, but can do more raw firepower?

stuff

And once again, TVBoy misinterprets someone into a not skilled player trying to make himself better.

stuff

Besides making the game *soooo much more complex*, what are your objections to it?

However, there's a lot of potential in the form of EPTs. Outmaneuver is one of them, allowing low attack, high maneuverability ships to hit more easily if they line up a perfect shot. It's useless on slow ships because they can't line up that shot. You could similarly create an accuracy EPT or mod that increased attack dice but cancelled the damage dealt by those additional dice.

stuff

And once again, TVBoy misinterprets someone into a not skilled player trying to make himself better.

stuff

Besides making the game *soooo much more complex*, what are your objections to it?

That. You want to add an element of complexity to a game that many are already complaining about "slow playing"? No thank you.

You're trying to bring WH/Confrontation miniature-style gaming into a game that's closer to Heroscape miniature-style gaming. I never liked the idea of rolling two sets of dice to determine if you hit and how much damage it does. You roll to hit, and it does the damage you got through, unless you have some special power that tells you otherwise. Strictly speaking, X-Wing and Heroscape are simpler miniatures games compared to Warhammer and the like. And that's what I like about it. It's simple to play and learn, but complex in how to strategize/play to its best. Warhammer and the like start out complicated, and it's distracting and annoying because of it.

EDIT: Heroscape, however, is much less complex then X-Wing, but just as strategic/tactical in a different sense.

stuff

And once again, TVBoy misinterprets someone into a not skilled player trying to make himself better.

stuff

Besides making the game *soooo much more complex*, what are your objections to it?

That. You want to add an element of complexity to a game that many are already complaining about "slow playing"? No thank you.

You clearly didn't read my next post. I made a comment about not wanting to add it, but it would've been interesting had FFG put it in.

And it really isn't that complex.

Example:

A-wing:

2 Att

3 Agi

2 Hull

2 Sh

3 Acc

A-wing attacks Tie Fighter, rolls attack dice = to acc (so 3 at range 2), if attack hits, roll attack dice = to Att (2 at range 2) to see how much damage is actually done.

adding one dice roll to the game isn't a whole level of complexity.