Greetings and while we're waiting for more news on The Harbinger, I have had a thought:

Since the main problem most of us 'might' have with an Ocean expansion is, where do you put it with the whole table(s) being used up for the other expansions an main board?

Well, perhaps Talisman ~ The Ocean Adventure should be it's own game. A game that is totally tied into the main, land based boards, but represents an ocean (with Islands or what ever) that is separate from the main board. You could have the tie in being you must go to the City, or the City Expansion's wharf, to charter your ship out.

There would be "no turning back", if you venture to the sea, you have removed yourself from the land/board's actions.

So, the game starts with the players/characters setting sail, pretty much and goes from there. If you have enough players, perhaps you can host both boards (I'm thinking a Ping-Pong table might work?) and go at it, but basically

The Ocean is a separate game that exists in the Talisman Realm or "World".

(I based this idea after thinking how easy it would be to create the ocean for a digital environment, as you're not limited to actual table-space)

It would be good to have a secondary board that could be used in conjunction with, or without, the main game.

id like to see this too, preferably one with a different mechanic/layout than mainboard, keeping the risk/reward seems prudent but maybe a chance/reward would do as well? (ie a sentinel type mechanic that has low chance of access regardless of abilities, and high reward/low risk area.

If ocean then connected islands and pirates/sea monsters seem obvious with some areas having more draw 2-3 areas + dangerous/dead zones and some being easily accesed but mostly draw 1 zones.

maybe some draws zones/roll to see at sea as well, maybe a personal ship you can equip with ballistas and battering rams?^^

The use of regular Talisman game mechanics would keep the play similar enough, but the ultimate goal probably should be separate from the original game; i.e.; no fabulous island that has a portal to the Crown. The Ocean should have its own set of goals and challenges.

The question would be can you keep other things like followers, objects etc separate or would you want to. There would be some cross-pollination, for sure.

I'm not sure about this Ocean idea. If this would be a completely separate game that is based on the Talisman mechanics (like Relic) then maybe... but otherwise I don't see a future and need for it.

The main goal in the Talisman is to become a new God of Talisman Land. To become a God one must find the Crown of Command. Now, what the Ocean would offer so it would be equal to become a God, so characters would drop the idea of being one and would start a journey on the seas? Since their goal no longer is to become a God, they must get a new goal, probably even better than the one of becoming a God, so they would have a valid reason to drop the idea of finding the Crown of Command.

But there's another problem. How the Ocean board would help the characters to get the Crown of Command, so they actually would consider leaving the main board and start a journey?

Not trying to sound rude, but I'm not sure if the Ocean Expansion Set actually should have a board. Players aren't characters. While normally many characters would go to a sea journey hoping that it will help them finding the Crown of Command, players actually know the game well and they will calculate whether it is worth to visit some oceans to gain little advantage, or not. And probably they will come to a conclusion that the effort of visiting oceans is not worth the treasures the ocean has to offer. Considering that the main board and close expansions already have a lot of stuff.

well first the main idea would be for the ocean board to be its own board, ie you'd play without mainboard, so we can just assume its another realm and adventurers have never heard of the crown of command

second the crown of command gives magical powers strong enough to make you king of the realm, not its god. Wouldn't you rather be the king of a tropical island than some goblininfested shoddy field?

If you were to play with both main and oceanboard it'd be same as with other expansions, characters may venture there for greater reward. There's already so many extra spaces/expansions to wander around in, dont see what'd be different about this one tbh. Just a matter of how you put it together.

I kinda feel like this could be cool and sketched like half the rules already^^. if anyone likes to do graphic and would be interested in fleshing out the expansion with me, and make the actual cards/board whisper me^^ (im too lazy myself, but id be happy to provide the rules and sketch)

well first the main idea would be for the ocean board to be its own board, ie you'd play without mainboard, so we can just assume its another realm and adventurers have never heard of the crown of command

second the crown of command gives magical powers strong enough to make you king of the realm, not its god. Wouldn't you rather be the king of a tropical island than some goblininfested shoddy field?

If you were to play with both main and oceanboard it'd be same as with other expansions, characters may venture there for greater reward. There's already so many extra spaces/expansions to wander around in, dont see what'd be different about this one tbh. Just a matter of how you put it together.

I kinda feel like this could be cool and sketched like half the rules already^^. if anyone likes to do graphic and would be interested in fleshing out the expansion with me, and make the actual cards/board whisper me^^ (im too lazy myself, but id be happy to provide the rules and sketch)

Hmm... there are a few things to consider.

First, we don't know how long the Wizard lived. But I think we must consider that he lived quite a lot if he managed to trick the LoD, the Big Bird, and the Dragons. One life would not be enough to do so, plus the Wizard would not become a legend if he did that during just one life because legends are often spoken by people who were not born yet when the actual events took place.

Second, he lived alone. He didn't give the Crown to one of his faithful soldier, but he hid it instead. He hid it, because he didn't have any faithful soldiers, or any soldiers at all. Yet, when he still was alive no monsters were roaming the Land of Talisman. They started after the Wizard died. The Wizard alone was enough to keep all the monsters outside of the Land of Talisman.

Therefore we can risk saying that while the Wizard was not a god, he for sure was a demigod or something this sort. And he left his Crown - the most powerful Object that consists of his and all other powerful and immortal beings' power. We therefore can assume that the Crown will give its wielder nearly a godly power.

Plus, I'm pretty sure the Wizard was not only limited in power just to the Land of Talisman, but also to the oceans and islands. He just let the monsters to live but in a place where they would not be a threat to the other people.

Plus, if something is an island it doesn't need to be primitive. I think for a character it would be same hard (if not even harder) to become a king of an island than become a god of Talisman Land. Because to become a god of Talisman Land all one needs to do is to survive in a dangerous place alone. On the island one needs to gain trust and love of all of the islanders. Can be quite hard for a foreigner. And killing the actual king not always is an option.

kind of a silly discussion but seems i cant help myself. all we know is he reigned supreme and that the land ungoverned after his death grew more dangerous. If he governed that suggests to me he did in fact have contact with and set up authorities to safeguard the land, but without a ruler they fell apart

The crown of command is a powerful artifact, it falls quite short of a divine power in my book. that's the final thing i'll say on the matter:) If you like to think a god is someone wielding such a power you are free to do so:)

Tropical just means its a tropical climate.

If you were to play with both main and oceanboard it'd be same as with other expansions, characters may venture there for greater reward. There's already so many extra spaces/expansions to wander around in, dont see what'd be different about this one tbh. Just a matter of how you put it together.

Yeah, but the difference is that the characters can enter and leave the expansion boards quite quickly, and they pretty much are not losing anything. They quickly may return to the main board if they noticed that another character is dangerously close to winning the game.

The Ocean board it seems (according to the first post) is different. Seems like a player first need to sacrifice some rounds to enter it, and pretty much will be unable to return. At least not as quickly as he would want. Therefore it is better to stick to the main board than go to a place of no/hard return.

The first post suggest that the Ocean board would have a different winning condition, but it already takes many rounds to actually enter one of the islands. I think I can risk saying that a character will at least need 10 rounds to enter an island. How many rounds will he need to satisfy that island's winning condition? During that 10 rounds the character will be traveling to an island all other characters will gain some stats and powerful cards. Not to mention that their winning condition is near their hands and they don't really have to search for it. That islands lover character will be left behind. And if the island's winning condition will be too easy, it will steal all of the attention from the main board and expansions and will render them useless.

all it says it you charter a ship at the city, maybe you immediately move to nearest island, if so that's no different from any other expansion. It's a good point you need to enter and exit easily, I just dont see why you seem to feel that it has to be extremely hard to do so? Its just another expansion...possibly with some special rules for moving, ocean cards and naval battles. and it'd be a big one....but its just an expansion. whywould you make rules saying you have to watch the game for 10 rounds to enter an island?

I can agree that the idea works best as a standalone map and that you'd need to intergrate the ocean with the rest of the game if you played it with mainboard, since its so big; or have move at ocean be really fast.

but if something needs a rule to work .... just make up the rule? you seem to think rules are forced upon the gamecreator by the material, but the reverse is true.

Perhaps I took a wrong idea. I actually seen an Ocean expansion to Talisman, and after leaving the Wharf we were moved to an Ocean map with multiple islands. Therefore that "10 rounds" was an estimate time of how long it will take to reach an island if one will have to play the game on an actual Ocean board instead of "teleporting" from the Wharf to an island in 1 round.

in talisman we traverse from one edge of the kingdom to the other in a single turn, and ships are faster than horse. I see no reason they wouldnt use 2 dice for move

Just add a rule saying that "If you start your turn at the city instead of moving normally you may visit the wharfmaster and get passage on a ship. Roll 2 dice, You may move up to that many ocean spaces, starrting your move at the City Wharf space in bottom left corner."

Or might be more fun to first roll for wind direction with one dice and then players move with another die, so that if wind blows left/east with 3 then player must move at least 3 moves east during his roll^^

btw there's a lot of wasted space on those maps, you'd need a great ocean deck to make that fun. could be done though.

I've been thinking about a possible small box solution. it should include different ocean/water overlays for the outer and perhaps even the middle region and a bunch of adventure cards with different flooding effects changing the landscape for a couple of turns. Making some places inaccessible others reachable by other means than walking and some still reachable as the water is shallow enough to pass through. Of course some spaces get whole new areas to visit - islands, water temple, shipwreck etc. Add an ocean deck to draw from during those turns and I think you'll get an interesting expanison. I would buy it.

Edit: Sorry, I wanted to add the following but I ran out of timing putting down my idea.

I came up with my idea as many players, including me, seems to have a problem with limited and/or insufficent board space. So if the ocean should be a separate board and fit on my table it has to be an overlay for the outer region or a replacement corner. Still I would probably find a solution to use it even it where completely separate from the rest of the game.

I think you all have some nice ideas that would be worth consideration. But from this point to a playable expansion, as with every thread we speculate on possible expansions, there's quite a bit of work. I can see many possible ways to make the ideas playable. Perhaps this "no return" trip is to head for a different goal - maybe just say that a rumour has surfaced telling of a "magic crown" on the "Skeleton Island" where the Lich King has started to grow in power (I mean, how can we be sure that the wizard didn't remove the crown from Talisman Land instead of hiding it?) or maybe it's just a way to say "you need to find a different way back". Either way I like the idea of a separate ocean board even though I would have problems fitting it on my table. A grand ocean you may enter and exit freely "depending on the wind" sounds cool as well. Perhaps you can find a way to control the wind...? Or is that just me playing to many hours of "Windwaker"... Still if you have a full scale board the islands may wary in both size and space as well. A large Island might be 6-8 spaces while the small ones fits on 1 or 2 spaces. Another thing we may discuss forever is if the spaces with just water should be "neutral" or if something happens on them as well - storms, other ships, shipwrecked sailors etc.

Sorry for my rambling, but there're just so many possibilites on how to make these ideas amazing...

But that it should follow basic Talisman rules sounds neccesary, we already have enough expansions changing game mechanics and adding complex rules.

Well, I started this mess, but I do appreciate the different comments and ideas. With all the talk, for years about an Ocean, I feel that it would have to be a different game/campaign in the same world. So my original idea does not have an "easy" interface back to the mainland of Talisman. It would be even more confusing to have some players going back and forth between essentially 2 different boards (and games?).

So, in that respect, an Ocean expansions has the same hurdles to meet, as a Timescape board. Because there are different opinions about players "hiding" from the main action by being in the Timescape or an Ocean. That is why I think they should be separate games. But I'm not saying 'never', that some mechanic could link them. But I think it would be house rules; all players embark on a cruise and return to the main land with or without their bounty, but in some arranged and agreed upon game action/house rule.

For board setup/mechanics I see 3 viable options:

islands only: ship are basically just ferries between islands, islands you either roll or there's an island deck, The advantage of making this like timescape would be that it can be small and tied in to maingame

Ocean mostly: a few islands, maybe just one, and a "ocean" deck, functioning much like an adventure deck; you meet seamonsters and pirates, find deserted ship with hidden treasure. places are often minor islands. The few islands are "inner region" ie roll to see what happens rather than a deck (or a very small deck with big challenges), and maybe chapel/graveyard/city islands

ocean and island: map is about 50/50 ocean/island (or most spaces are island+coast), and there's a island and a ocean deck

i'd prefer an ocean deck,rather than a timescape/island expansion myself, and i'd prefer to play on the ocean board INSTEAD of the talisman board,not move to the ocean, and preferably design the ocean board so that expansions like dungeon/highland etc could be attached

Have I ever told you guys about using a ping pong table for the entire mess? We did this years ago with some other large, sprawling game. In the '80s when I still owned a ping pong table. Even half of a P/P table would fit the main board and expansions and possibly an ocean/timescape/etc separate board.

Then you need a room or basement nice enough for it, LOL.

So pondering this idea of an Ocean Board (So +1 to 0beron's Ocean Board idea). Here are some thoughts.

1. Personally, I think it should be tied into the main game as an add-on like all the expansions so far, not a separate game.

2. I like the idea of it being a separate board, like Time-Scape. (+1 to 0beron' s thoughts on it being a great Digital Expansion due to space - also applies to Time-Scape - might be that at some point Nomad Games publishes a Big Box DE only expansion, similar to the DE only characters. That way if it sells well enough, they could convert to Fantasy Flight Games publishing it in the dead tree version).

3. Ocean spaces and an Ocean Deck. Kind of like how the Firelands change board spaces. When you enter a space you draw from the Deck, could be a sea creature, could be a sea stranger, pirates, sirens, shipwrecks, traders, explorers, ghost-ships, etc. (So +1 to Nemomon's open board and island idea)

4. Perhaps a Weather deck as well. Could be a weather event - Hurricane effects the ocean board, Whirlpool, tropical storm, dead calm. The weather also effect ship movement - reduced to 1 to 3, 1 to 1, miss a turn, blown off-course. You could include a dice that allows you determine wind direction, which won't stop you from moving in your chosen direction, but increase or slow it. (So +1 to Rawsugar's Idea above on the Weather thing)

5. On the board, like the examples above are smaller Islands that are uneffected by certain Ocean/Weather Deck Events. Of course having an island sink or an island rise would be cool. Same thing with a volcano.

6. Each Island, you'd have probably an Island Deck with cannibals, xenophobic Elves, hidden entrance to darklands that lead to the Dungeon, perhaps a Mountain Eyrie that Griffins will fly you to the Highlands, of course a Woodlands entrance to get you via fey portals to the Wooldands/Forest areas.

7. I think having Talisman Island as the only Continent (for now).

8. Different Size ships - perhaps an Add-on deck for the City. You can always build a raft if you're in the forest by the river. But the ship allows you to have cargo (expanding your carry slots), A warship helps you fight better (like the warhorse), or move faster (like the riding horse). So now you'd have a ship deck to add to the city.

9. Perhaps, it's the Realm of Davy Jones, the Kraken, Talisman Pirates, or Talisman Viking (in the cold part of the ocean). Much like the other expansions, you'd have to travel to end board location in the far corner of board (furthermost from the start point of the board). And much like the other expansions, you get to drawn from somelike the a Treasure hoard deck (Davy Jone's Locker, Treasure Cave, etc.)

10. Treasure Maps that act like warlock quests but oriented on going to a particular island and getting a buff or bonus, Talisman, etc.

11. Probably a bit much, but you could decide to travel, under or over the Ocean as well. Drawing from different decks and facing different endings - above you face the Pirate; below Davy Jones or the Kraken; over - I have no idea maybe a celestial or ocean dragon. If you fly over you could leave from the City by purchasing a dirigible/ballon or elemental powered ship or flying creature animal. Highlands Expansion could be flying creatures. If underwater, you'd leave from the city (purchasing a submarine of sometype) or perhaps a tunnel in the Dungeon. Water Breathing could be a spell, trinket, or item you use to go underwater and travel as well.

12. Special Ending - could be Pirates, Vikings, Kraken, Ocean/Celestial Dragon, Davy Jones, Sea King, Perfect Storm, Whirlpool.

13. Character Cards - Sailor, Windwalker (can fly over the spaces), Animal Tamer, Mechanical Flyer, Submariner,

14. Thinking a couple of Fritz Lieber stories for inspiration - "When the Sea King goes away" breathable Tunnels, etc.

As a side note, Rawsugar's idea that getting the Crown of Command makes you god of the Realm. I'm with Nemomon that when you get the Crown you become defacto Ruler of the Realm, not a god.

This thread appears to be the right place to share my thoughts about Talisman future expansions.

I think any new board expansion shall be connected to the main board and be usable either with all other expansions, some of them, or the base game only, just like other corners. However, it's very difficult to physically link a new board to the Talisman mainland, because we have no free edges except very tiny gaps between Woodland and Dungeon, or City and Highland.

I had the following idea: using non-card elements to create gates from main board to disconnected boards. The easiest way to accomplish this is by using tokens. Example: you add a token to the City or Tavern space, and that space becomes an entry point to some new Region. This could be used for either the "Ocean" Expansion or the "Timescape" Expansion; in the first one the tokens could represent a wharf, dock or any other place where you can set sail for the sea; in the second one they could be portals to other dimensions. In this way, external boards become accessible without being adjacent to the main board, and tokens serve as "upgrades" for spaces. They will just affect the way the character moves out of the space next turn, not the standard encounter.

Any new expansion shall not change the game's ultimate objective: reaching the Crown of Command and becoming the ruler of Talisman world. However, since Timescape could already act as a place where you can quickly find powerful stuff or be annihilated by extra-hard encounters, while being safe from Spells cast by other characters (including the Command Spell), the Ocean board apparently has nothing to add besides some theme and pirate fluff, which is very nice but probably not enough to justify a new big board expansion.

On the contrary, I think the Ocean could provide a luck-based shortcut to the Crown of Command, which is the only thing this game has not yet included. Standard game requires a character to boost his/her attributes until he overcomes the Inner Region, while the Dungeon grants access to the Crown if the character very strong in either battle or psychic combat. But we don't have a place where we can push our luck in card drawing to find a quick and short way to the Crown of Command. This should be the purpose of venturing in the seas: find a secret sanctuary, wizard's fortress or an artefact that could just give you a way to reach the Crown of Command. This should be luck-based, but still there can be conditions to fulfil: have a Talisman (always IMHO), sacrifice possessions, have a certain amount of fate, life, accomplish a thing, have a specific Object you can find only in this expansion, etc... This could be either randomly asked by an encouter, or tied to a "Route" card not very different from the Paths in the Woodland expansion (without bonuses, but with tasks to accomplish). The big difference could be that you don't have a Meeting with Destiny to reach, but objectives to complete during the journey over the sea.

Just a random set of ideas...

an easy way to access nonadjacent maps that is already intergrated in the game is rune gates.

an easy way to attach the board is to just move the expansions. Just make a space from which you can access highland or woodland on the ocean board and attach the new board below main board (or above, if you dont mind having 2 cities in the game).

but I dont think talisman needs MORE maps, i would be interested in a new main map replacing the old one, with different mechanics without feeling like a new game.

Well, an expansion that "connects" other Regions is tricky, because we have to assume players only own the base game. So it can't be designed entirely around Region connection, but that has to be a cool bonus.

The main board also can't be replaced, because many cards and effects make references to those spaces.

It'd be a tricky one...

So pondering this idea of an Ocean Board (So +1 to 0beron's Ocean Board idea). Here are some thoughts.

1. Personally, I think it should be tied into the main game as an add-on like all the expansions so far, not a separate game.

2. I like the idea of it being a separate board, like Time-Scape. (+1 to 0beron' s thoughts on it being a great Digital Expansion due to space - also applies to Time-Scape - might be that at some point Nomad Games publishes a Big Box DE only expansion, similar to the DE only characters. That way if it sells well enough, they could convert to Fantasy Flight Games publishing it in the dead tree version).

3. Ocean spaces and an Ocean Deck. Kind of like how the Firelands change board spaces. When you enter a space you draw from the Deck, could be a sea creature, could be a sea stranger, pirates, sirens, shipwrecks, traders, explorers, ghost-ships, etc. (So +1 to Nemomon's open board and island idea)

4. Perhaps a Weather deck as well. Could be a weather event - Hurricane effects the ocean board, Whirlpool, tropical storm, dead calm. The weather also effect ship movement - reduced to 1 to 3, 1 to 1, miss a turn, blown off-course. You could include a dice that allows you determine wind direction, which won't stop you from moving in your chosen direction, but increase or slow it. (So +1 to Rawsugar's Idea above on the Weather thing)

5. On the board, like the examples above are smaller Islands that are uneffected by certain Ocean/Weather Deck Events. Of course having an island sink or an island rise would be cool. Same thing with a volcano.

6. Each Island, you'd have probably an Island Deck with cannibals, xenophobic Elves, hidden entrance to darklands that lead to the Dungeon, perhaps a Mountain Eyrie that Griffins will fly you to the Highlands, of course a Woodlands entrance to get you via fey portals to the Wooldands/Forest areas.

7. I think having Talisman Island as the only Continent (for now).

8. Different Size ships - perhaps an Add-on deck for the City. You can always build a raft if you're in the forest by the river. But the ship allows you to have cargo (expanding your carry slots), A warship helps you fight better (like the warhorse), or move faster (like the riding horse). So now you'd have a ship deck to add to the city.

9. Perhaps, it's the Realm of Davy Jones, the Kraken, Talisman Pirates, or Talisman Viking (in the cold part of the ocean). Much like the other expansions, you'd have to travel to end board location in the far corner of board (furthermost from the start point of the board). And much like the other expansions, you get to drawn from somelike the a Treasure hoard deck (Davy Jone's Locker, Treasure Cave, etc.)

10. Treasure Maps that act like warlock quests but oriented on going to a particular island and getting a buff or bonus, Talisman, etc.

11. Probably a bit much, but you could decide to travel, under or over the Ocean as well. Drawing from different decks and facing different endings - above you face the Pirate; below Davy Jones or the Kraken; over - I have no idea maybe a celestial or ocean dragon. If you fly over you could leave from the City by purchasing a dirigible/ballon or elemental powered ship or flying creature animal. Highlands Expansion could be flying creatures. If underwater, you'd leave from the city (purchasing a submarine of sometype) or perhaps a tunnel in the Dungeon. Water Breathing could be a spell, trinket, or item you use to go underwater and travel as well.

12. Special Ending - could be Pirates, Vikings, Kraken, Ocean/Celestial Dragon, Davy Jones, Sea King, Perfect Storm, Whirlpool.

13. Character Cards - Sailor, Windwalker (can fly over the spaces), Animal Tamer, Mechanical Flyer, Submariner,

14. Thinking a couple of Fritz Lieber stories for inspiration - "When the Sea King goes away" breathable Tunnels, etc.

As a side note, Rawsugar's idea that getting the Crown of Command makes you god of the Realm. I'm with Nemomon that when you get the Crown you become defacto Ruler of the Realm, not a god.

These are very well thought out ideas.

Thanks 0beron. It's a cool idea and would be fun to see it come to life in whatever form. The more talisman the better!

I see myself as a "raw" idea person, so I love when others are able to flesh out these, other or their own ideas.