The problem with engine techs is that, if the opposing fleet stays in some kind of formation, the GSD will over-extend, leaving its escort behind and jumping right in the thick of it. It's easy to forget that the GSD is a small and can't tank damage like its larger cousin. This usually results in him being a one-hit wonder. He'll wreck shop for a turn or two, then crumble like the glass cannon he is.

Fleet positioning is key to discourage him pouncing on his terms.

Why would anyone use the Demolisher the manner you are suggesting? What's the point of using it if all you are going to do with it's manuverability is to go front to front with the Neb B? Even the posts you qouted suggested coming up on the Neb B's side which is both more damaging and safer.

Take the hit and kill it. Hey, wait, where are you going, I'm serious here...

While a lot of advice is fleet specific, it's obviously hard to avoid getting hit at least once by the demolisher, particularly if they have initiative. Side arc with 4 blacks will be what, average 4 damage before modifiers? Screed and ACMs will probably do 8 damage (dump a blank to get to 6, then ACM to 8). But they aren't particularly sturdy at close range, are utterly awful at dealing damage at long range, and take a lot of points for the combat monster.

Weaken it at long range if possible, situate your bombers w/in 1 of where you think the demolisher will land, tank the initial hit with an AFmk2 or sacrifical corvette (preferably with ECM to avoid random red accuracies...), and bust the demolisher open in the fighter phase or off your first action next turn. Nebulon Bs, being excellent at long range and...limited...in close range, are not optimal glad killers. Of course, if your yavaris survives, the glad is probably dead, and salvation neb getting a volley off can mess up a glad bad.

Here's where I'm having trouble following the "Glass kill Neb B's" argument.

Demolisher rolls right up in my grill, and drops eight on my NebB. He's rolling black and only two reds, so probably not a single let alone a triple precision result. I brace, reducing the eight damage down to four, and take a single Crit face up damage card. And now Dem is parked in front of my fleet and squadrons. Maybe three red dice ain't scary, but three to four ships and their fighters? Sounds like a dead Dem exchanged for a NebB missing it's front shields.

But when I go for the VSD it ends badly,but not because of the VSD but getting pinched in between the SD's.

Reminder: Demolisher alone doesn't make a GSD powerful. Its the inclusion of Assault Concussion Missiles and being under the command of Admiral Screed. Engine Techs just makes the reach of Demolisher's ability greater, and/or sets up next turns run with a 1 Speed 45 degree (2 click) maneuver.

The above might not be registering with some.

The problem with engine techs is that, if the opposing fleet stays in some kind of formation, the GSD will over-extend, leaving its escort behind and jumping right in the thick of it. It's easy to forget that the GSD is a small and can't tank damage like its larger cousin. This usually results in him being a one-hit wonder. He'll wreck shop for a turn or two, then crumble like the glass cannon he is.

Fleet positioning is key to discourage him pouncing on his terms.

This does happen. I've made that very mistake. And even when it payed off (like in my last battle) I still lost a GSD.

Wait til July and pick up the Mon Cal frigate that has 5 dice and more shields. You'll win the trade then.

ROFL! July! Because FFG is soooooo good at hitting their target dates.

Just teasing though, I say this but I am sooooo hopeful that actually happens.

Why would anyone use the Demolisher the manner you are suggesting? What's the point of using it if all you are going to do with it's manuverability is to go front to front with the Neb B? Even the posts you qouted suggested coming up on the Neb B's side which is both more damaging and safer.

So, my fleet is just heading straight forward, and allowing the GSD Flank me? Except for the Demo, the other GSDs are going to have to roll up, and then unload on the next turn. I'm just trying to figure out what the Rebs are doing that allows the GSDs to outfly a NebB that is as fast and maneuverable until you add the Tech in. We're not talking about a CR90 hooking around behind a VSD here.

Honestly my Alliance peeps, take a page out of the VSD playbook here, slow down and let the hot rod come to you and it makes it much easier to keep the GSD in your front arc if the Imperium sends an all GSD flotilla after you. If they're running a combo pack of VSD and GSD, then either the rabbit is running away from the tortoise, and that means one or two GSDs versus your whole fleet, or they're staying close together, and the GSDs can't outflank you moving at 2.

Why would anyone use the Demolisher the manner you are suggesting? What's the point of using it if all you are going to do with it's manuverability is to go front to front with the Neb B? Even the posts you qouted suggested coming up on the Neb B's side which is both more damaging and safer.

So, my fleet is just heading straight forward, and allowing the GSD Flank me? Except for the Demo, the other GSDs are going to have to roll up, and then unload on the next turn. I'm just trying to figure out what the Rebs are doing that allows the GSDs to outfly a NebB that is as fast and maneuverable until you add the Tech in. We're not talking about a CR90 hooking around behind a VSD here.

Honestly my Alliance peeps, take a page out of the VSD playbook here, slow down and let the hot rod come to you and it makes it much easier to keep the GSD in your front arc if the Imperium sends an all GSD flotilla after you. If they're running a combo pack of VSD and GSD, then either the rabbit is running away from the tortoise, and that means one or two GSDs versus your whole fleet, or they're staying close together, and the GSDs can't outflank you moving at 2.

So it all depends on how they deploy. But I tried, believe me I did, to take on the VSD first before the GSD and now I know that is just plain dumb. The GSD needs to be hunted down fast and hard. Do not ignore it even for the first few turns, single it out and take it down.

He did try. What do we have 4-5 games and you took out the GSD once at best Beatty? I am not a phenomenal commander but the GSD flies rather gracefully. It's like a hornet. . . And now I suddenly have the paint scheme for my second GSD

I flew a neb and cr90 + squadrons against a highly upgraded gladiator in a 180 tournament (before new tourney rules came out). It had everything you could want, demonlisher, screed, 2 extra black dice in the front, engine techs, etc.

I didn't try to ping it from a distance. I went full forward which rather surprised him. He gave close range volley to my neb which survived, then went forward one and one shotted my cr90. He could have taken out the neb, but he fired on the cr90 which hadn't fired yet. Succeeded in taking it out before it fired. What he didn't take into account is I had placed my Xwings and Ywings well and they got the final shots off. I play with a good mixture of ships and squadrons and know that I need the squadrons to win.

I knew I'd loose one ship. But I had two and only needed one and some bombers to take out the gladiator. It's got a lot of bite, but is a small ship that takes damage quickly. If he had been more patient and leveraged his squadrons more and/or first, he would have had a better chance. Instead, he saw blood and rushed in. My Awings had tangled up his fighters, but I had kept my xwings and ywings close to my ships. He left his squadrons behind with my Awings and took on the rest of my fleet.

I won that game 9 to 1 (tourney points after mission taken into account).

So far I only had a single go with the wave 1 stuff, but one thing ppl often forget is the points cost of those fully outkitted GSDs.. with 'just' engine techs, the demolisher title and one of the (needed) missile upgrades I am netting 86/93 points on a 5 HP ship that has to draw close to kill anything - it definitely should play and feel like a high risk/high reward unit. Even if it occassionally oneshots a corvette or even a Neb (highly unlikely..), it has to be judged on points losed per points won.. bringing a 93 pts one-trick pony to kill a ~50 pts corvette before succumbing to enemy fire still leaves a cool impression, but will not win you any battles.

basically as hesekiel said

even if the trade-off is inevitable, it is very difficult for the trade-off to fall in the imperial's favor i.t.o net gain of points

it's up to the rebel player to force the trade by covering their ships with one another (and not losing something more expensive than the gladiator, like a flagship or a fattie)

It isn't a matter of out flying the Neb-B with a Gladiator, it's a matter of the printed arcs on both ships making side on engagement the general outcome.

The Neb-B has to constantly work against the fact that it needs to , both defensively and offensively, keep everything in front of it. Despite that being a narrower arc. In order to do so it has to sacrifice a fair bit of speed and even then is vulnerable to divergent threats. It's not really a ship that can hide it's underbelly, so as stated it's up to the Rebel player to use his other ships to dissuade runs on the Neb-B.

I also don't see why any Imperial player would eagerly throw away a Demolisher in a lower point trade, or why they have to do so. The selling point of the engine techs is not in getting your shot to begin with, but getting away from reprisals after you do. I think the Demolisher is a much better late game closer then alpha-striker.

That said it really doesn't like the Assault Frigate.

It isn't a matter of out flying the Neb-B with a Gladiator, it's a matter of the printed arcs on both ships making side on engagement the general outcome.

The Neb-B has to constantly work against the fact that it needs to , both defensively and offensively, keep everything in front of it. Despite that being a narrower arc. In order to do so it has to sacrifice a fair bit of speed and even then is vulnerable to divergent threats. It's not really a ship that can hide it's underbelly, so as stated it's up to the Rebel player to use his other ships to dissuade runs on the Neb-B.

I also don't see why any Imperial player would eagerly throw away a Demolisher in a lower point trade, or why they have to do so.

Why compare Nebs to GSDs? Both have a way different combat role, and once you start upgrading, a way different price level. The GSD can also be considered an effective counter to a Neb, toe-to-toe, so obviously nobody would bet on her in any 1 on 1. I still see viable builds including Nebs, just not as a direct opponent for GSDs..

And regarding the points trade, that was my point seeing the GSD as high risk/high reward. You are a speedy hitter, but not that much more durable than a Neb. You have to work with close range armament, which means it will require great maneouvring to ever be in range to a sweet vulnerable target without being in range of many/most guns the enemy fleet is bringing.

That said it really doesn't like the Assault Frigate.

Tbf, the fattie doesn't much like it either...

Honestly my Alliance peeps, take a page out of the VSD playbook here, slow down and let the hot rod come to you...

Take the hit and kill it. Hey, wait, where are you going, I'm serious here...

While a lot of advice is fleet specific, it's obviously hard to avoid getting hit at least once by the demolisher, particularly if they have initiative...

Demolisher rolls right up in my grill...I brace, reducing the eight damage down to four, and take a single Crit face up damage card. And now Dem is parked in front of my fleet and squadrons. Maybe three red dice ain't scary, but three to four ships and their fighters? Sounds like a dead Dem exchanged for a NebB missing it's front shields.

I really don't have a whole lot to add beyond putting these quotes in order. A match-up against Gladiators (especially when you're fielding Nebulon-B's) just requires a different approach and mentality than most other ships. Acknowledge that you're going to take a drubbing, but set yourself up to pile on the damage in return. In particular, holding Bomber squadrons back on the more vulnerable flank of your fleet is a good counter (but they're not a deterrent yet; Gladiator commanders are very aggressive and squadrons are still being underestimated).