Weird, I seem to remember some scum Y-wings doing pretty well at Regionals.

I didn't actually mean they weren't competitive

Games should not have a meta and be predictable.

If it is varied and that much a wild card as to what will win an event it makes me even happier than I chose now to get into this game.

It grows tired when you see the same two or three lists at ever event and you have to play certain lists just to have a chance.

"The Meta" isn't really about what wins, it's about what you're most likely to face in a tournament.

Some guy might have won a tournament with 2 Bs and an X-Wing, but if you were losing to Soontir, Fat Han, and Dual IGs all day and never played against that guy, practicing against 2Bs and an X-Wing probably wouldn't have been very helpful to you winning that tournament right?

What he said.

The term "Meta" does not mean "single list type/character that always wins".

"Meta" (in gaming terms at least) describes the majority of top squads and/or strategies that are being played at the current time. Many times, those squads are being played because they are seen by the X Wing population as the best ways to win. The list of squads does NOT have to contain a single, define-able archetype, like "Fat Turret" lists. What that is describing is instead "list archetype viewed as #1" or something similar.

The "meta" encompasses all the lists that people play because they expect to have a chance at winning a tournament, either because they are working to counter a large majority of the current popular lists or because they are playing those popular lists.

That being said, yes, there is a meta, and it is not summed up just by saying "Fat Turret lists". Currently, there are a number of lists that people are playing that they consider to be contenders for winning, and many of those have made the top spots or won Regional events.

Dash + Corran

Decimator + Soontir

Decimator + Whisper

Soontir + Whisper + Support

Fat Falcon + Support

BBBBZ

Chewy + Leebo

4 Ship Rebel Control

4 Scum Y Wing

8 Tie Swarm

7 Tie Swarm

etc etc...

THIS is the proper way to describe a "meta".

"The Meta" isn't really about what wins, it's about what you're most likely to face in a tournament.

Some guy might have won a tournament with 2 Bs and an X-Wing, but if you were losing to Soontir, Fat Han, and Dual IGs all day and never played against that guy, practicing against 2Bs and an X-Wing probably wouldn't have been very helpful to you winning that tournament right?

What he said.

The term "Meta" does not mean "single list type/character that always wins".

"Meta" (in gaming terms at least) describes the majority of top squads and/or strategies that are being played at the current time. Many times, those squads are being played because they are seen by the X Wing population as the best ways to win. The list of squads does NOT have to contain a single, define-able archetype, like "Fat Turret" lists. What that is describing is instead "list archetype viewed as #1" or something similar.

The "meta" encompasses all the lists that people play because they expect to have a chance at winning a tournament, either because they are working to counter a large majority of the current popular lists or because they are playing those popular lists.

That being said, yes, there is a meta, and it is not summed up just by saying "Fat Turret lists". Currently, there are a number of lists that people are playing that they consider to be contenders for winning, and many of those have made the top spots or won Regional events.

Dash + Corran

Decimator + Soontir

Decimator + Whisper

Soontir + Whisper + Support

Fat Falcon + Support

BBBBZ

Chewy + Leebo

4 Ship Rebel Control

4 Scum Y Wing

8 Tie Swarm

7 Tie Swarm

etc etc...

THIS is the proper way to describe a "meta".

Yes yes yes and more yes. The meta is more about trends than it is a specific thing. Also just because 1 thing wins does not make it meta or break the meta. This game is not shifting to where 2 x's and a B-wing is the list to beat, it's just not happening. Think of it as tier lists. The examples Phildo gave are top tier and high mid tier lists. There is a good chance you're going to see them at tournaments.

When I played league of Legends the Meta was AD carry+support bot, AP mid, solo top, jungler for ganks. If you were playing ranked that's what you were seeing. Occasionally did someone win when they had 2 top and 2 bot? Yeah but not enough to change the trend of the game.

Maybe Americans are just boring and unimaginative? Everyone else seems to be playing more varied lists.

Even then there is great variance in the composition of these squads (because they are efficient and good archetypes.)

In any case, tournaments are probably 20% determined by your list, the rest is piloting, luck and pairing.

Thank god. I'm so sick of people trying to guess where the metagame is going, people spend more time worrying about that and less time trying new things.

There's something to be said for the players that choose to ignore the herd.

Maybe Americans are just boring and unimaginative? Everyone else seems to be playing more varied lists.

Even then there is great variance in the composition of these squads (because they are efficient and good archetypes.)

In any case, tournaments are probably 20% determined by your list, the rest is piloting, luck and pairing.

It's not a lack of imagination. It's a lack of confidence coupled with a bigger drive to win IMO.

Thank god. I'm so sick of people trying to guess where the metagame is going, people spend more time worrying about that and less time trying new things.

There's something to be said for the players that choose to ignore the herd.

I spent more time thinking about matchups than I did about my own regional list. Wasted time! Only half of my opponents were even flying those lists! Both my losses were to non-standard lists.

Maybe Americans are just boring and unimaginative? Everyone else seems to be playing more varied lists.

Perusing the 2015 Regionals thread, seems to me it's the Brits that are stuck in 2014 playing Fat Han lists.

Thank god. I'm so sick of people trying to guess where the metagame is going, people spend more time worrying about that and less time trying new things.

There's something to be said for the players that choose to ignore the herd.

Sometimes it's good to something nobody else is doing if it's better than everyone, but to ignore the herd is a good way to get trampled under it.

Edit: however I'll agree that some people on these forums seem to spend too much time talking about the game and not enough playing it to see if their ideas hold up in battlefield conditions.

The turrets are still the gatekeepers...

Does that mean that Whisper is the Keymaster?

The turrets are still the gatekeepers...

Does that mean that Whisper is the Keymaster?

More like the floor rug.

Maybe Americans are just boring and unimaginative? Everyone else seems to be playing more varied lists.

Even then there is great variance in the composition of these squads (because they are efficient and good archetypes.)

In any case, tournaments are probably 20% determined by your list, the rest is piloting, luck and pairing.

Maybe...There's a reason the most popular comedy shows are all remakes of BBC comedies.

Maybe Americans are just boring and unimaginative? Everyone else seems to be playing more varied lists.

Even then there is great variance in the composition of these squads (because they are efficient and good archetypes.)

In any case, tournaments are probably 20% determined by your list, the rest is piloting, luck and pairing.

We play to win the game. Not have fun.

-Murica.

Maybe...There's a reason the most popular comedy shows are all remakes of BBC comedies.

Now THERE'S an interesting discussion to take to off-topic...

hey, if you are tired of turret+ace or double turret, make a list you like, practice against the crap you don't like, get good enough to beat that list when it is cheating even and go to a tournament and rofl stomp. its the rocky principle. if you want to win practice. you can change the meta by being different, but being different isn't always easy. you gotta be the change you want to see. or as michael jackson put it, start with the man in the mirror.

I think the current 'meta' is mostly defined by 'can it beat x' and the list everyone wants to beat is still a fat turret of some sort. Fat turrets win because people that were good with them last year (and winning) are better with them this year (and still winning). The exact flavor is less important than knowing how to fly a turret+ace/support list. Ergo, once a person figures out how to fly it competently they can fly any version of it they want and win. If a person wins, why change? I am stoked to see so many varied lists in the top 8's. But it looks to me like turrets are still king. I don't think that all turrets are the 'absolute best ship available' (Falcon aside) like they were ~wave 4, but I think that lots of people are looking for a silver bullet for them and there just isn't one. I think that other lists will see some popularity as the game moves forward, but I think it's fairly obvious that the Falcon is one of the best - if not the best - ship in the game. And it should be.

I can already hear the militant casual gearing up to tell me about list variety, and how it's not all about winning etc. Save it. Some of us like competing in tournaments.

Expressing an opinion isnt militancy no matter how strident you are, unless said casual is throwing something heavy your way he's the same as you a guy with an opinion.

They're too variable for a silver bullet. Last year Han was the silver bullet. This year there isn't one.

Maybe Americans are just boring and unimaginative? Everyone else seems to be playing more varied lists.

Perusing the 2015 Regionals thread, seems to me it's the Brits that are stuck in 2014 playing Fat Han lists.

I think some of that is that their Regionals were on the early end. They're all finished at this point, and their nationals are coming.

Here in my province of Canada, I think my Regional is the very last, in late July. I have WAY more time to practice and get used to the Scum ships, just to see if I'd like to take that. If you haven't had much time to practice and take a new list to a competitive tourney, it's probably better to take what you're used to and know is strong (Han and friends).

Jacob

I think the current 'meta' is mostly defined by 'can it beat x' and the list everyone wants to beat is still a fat turret of some sort. Fat turrets win because people that were good with them last year (and winning) are better with them this year (and still winning). The exact flavor is less important than knowing how to fly a turret+ace/support list. Ergo, once a person figures out how to fly it competently they can fly any version of it they want and win. If a person wins, why change? I am stoked to see so many varied lists in the top 8's. But it looks to me like turrets are still king. I don't think that all turrets are the 'absolute best ship available' (Falcon aside) like they were ~wave 4, but I think that lots of people are looking for a silver bullet for them and there just isn't one. I think that other lists will see some popularity as the game moves forward, but I think it's fairly obvious that the Falcon is one of the best - if not the best - ship in the game. And it should be.

I can already hear the militant casual gearing up to tell me about list variety, and how it's not all about winning etc. Save it. Some of us like competing in tournaments.

Brobots are the silver bullet against Turrets. Turrets can't eat through 16 HP and autothrusters, but HLCs chew right through those damage mitigation tricks pretty easily.

The problem though is how people approach this game. From what I see, a lot of people will play random jank in their casual and practice games, rarely practicing with the same list more than twice and not wanting to play "boring meta lists". Then, on the day of a big tournament, they realize that none of the lists they've been playing for fun are actually viable and they need to run a real list or get demolished, so they pick up a net list that they've maybe played 3-4 games with total, probably because it's the list they played in the last big tournament.

There is an art to flying a Fat Turret well, but you can't really shoot yourself in the foot with a turret the way you can with a normal ship or HLC Dash, because it's impossible to get shot at without shooting back. Basically the skilled players do better with a Fat Turret than a noob would, but even freshest of noobs can give themselves a fighting chance by running a Fat Turret. Running a Fat Turret means never being denied your red dice. One of the Nova squadron guys even talked about how some guy parked their Decimator right in front of his BBBBZ list, but BBBBZ lost because he rolled badly and the Decimator didn't. I'm not saying that people who run Fat Turrets are noobs, I'm saying there's a limit to how badly you can do with a Fat Turret.

Brobots on the other hand do require a ton of practice to fly well, you need to know how to keep those front arcs on target without exposing yourself or landing on an asteroid or s-looping into another ship. A novice can easily give themselves 0 chance of winning by maneuvering poorly with their Aggressors, which is just not possible with a Fat Turret. How you maneuver your IGs decides whether you get to roll red dice that turn or not, which is not true of a Fat Turret.

So if everyone's lazy, the lazy players that pick up Fat Turrets are just going to do better on average than the lazy players that pick up Brobots which are the counter to Fat Turrets. The players that I know that run dual IGs and put the practice hours in during casual and pick-up games instead of playing jank lists to feel cool, they do well in the tournaments and beat Fat Turrets with regularity and with ease. The guys that ran them a few times when they first came out and otherwise only run them when there's a tournament, not so much.

Maybe...There's a reason the most popular comedy shows are all remakes of BBC comedies.

Now THERE'S an interesting discussion to take to off-topic...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_television_series_based_on_British_television_series

It seems like the BBC is responsible for a lot more of our reality TV and game shows than they are our most popular sitcoms.

Maybe...There's a reason the most popular comedy shows are all remakes of BBC comedies.

Now THERE'S an interesting discussion to take to off-topic...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_television_series_based_on_British_television_series

It seems like the BBC is responsible for a lot more of our reality TV and game shows than they are our most popular sitcoms.

British steal American reality shows as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_television_series_based_on_American_television_series

Maybe...There's a reason the most popular comedy shows are all remakes of BBC comedies.

Now THERE'S an interesting discussion to take to off-topic...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_television_series_based_on_British_television_series

It seems like the BBC is responsible for a lot more of our reality TV and game shows than they are our most popular sitcoms.

British steal American reality shows as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_television_series_based_on_American_television_series

Ooh burn, suck it Europe!