Just saying that I love my M3-A Interceptors even though I lose with them reasonably regularly.
Keeping at range 3 does seem to be the way to go.
M3-A gets no love!
I shall be taking a list with 2 HLC says to UK nationals this weekend. I'm not a great player so I'd see mid table as success for the list. I just hope I fly against lots of fatties and the dice don't roll too cold. I've got 4 ships with (situational) 4 dice attacks so I can potentially chew through those big turret ships really quickly, but it does need the dice to not suck.
As has been mentioned you are paying 14 points for a tie fighter, the ship naked isn't 2 points better than a z-95 so no you have to put the title on it to be useable. Adding 2 points to the cost of missiles and torpedoes just isn't worth it and if you want a cheap missile carrier you have the z for4 points less. So that leaves cannons I can see limited reasons for almost any cannon. You can run HLC for 4 dice, mangler though at that point once wave 7 hits you probably have a better ship those points may be better spent on the khriraz, of a flechette cannon.
I have always thought that it should have cost 12 points 13 at the absolute most and probably should have had 2 titles one for 0-1 that let you use a missile or torp and then the 2 point for the cannons.
I fly the M3 a lot and like it. I do not take them to tournaments as it is 2-4 points too expensive. It is basically a tie fighter that does not handle as well that you can mount a cannon on. The problem is the Heavy Scyk adds 2 points. Fine, then reduce the cost of the ship by two points to keep it in line with a tie fighter with lessor handling. The other problem is the lack of named pilots with additional abilities. There are like two. Drop the base cost by 2 and give us a better selection like ties, A's, or others.
Also, it won't take autothrusters; the upgrade which make interceptors and A wings relatively viable.
Finally, if they are Sum, give them an illicit upgrade like the others. If they are going to explode on impact, they might as well take some others with them.
After trying this ship I can honestly say it is Seriously overpriced.
It needs to clock in as the same cost of a Tie. Then pay for the upgrades. That's the only way to make it worthwhile.
I bought 6 of these at the expansions release. Jeez what a waste of money.
Took two M3-As to our Spring kit tournament tonight. Only 5 people showed up and I got the 1st round bye, so I only got to play 2 games. In both games, I had a Scyk die in the first round of combat. First was to an Aggressor snipe with hit, hit, crit vs. my blank, blank, blank. Second one was range 1 against two Obsidian TIEs with focus + target lock (courtesy of Colonel Jendon). So while my first game ever where I flew Scyks saw a Scyk dodging hits for 4 rounds on the merits of 3 agility dice, the subsequent three games saw them crumple like paper.
I bought 6 of these at the expansions release. Jeez what a waste of money.
Ouch! So sorry to hear that!
Edited by Budgernaut@Tokyogriz
If you buy 6 of any ship with its release it's an expected loss isnt it?
They are, at a minimum, 2-3 points overcosted once you factor in the title. Given that the restrictions on the dial and the softness of the ship should have been enough to mitigate cannon-spam, it makes it functionally inefficient IMO. Base 13 plus 1 point title might have seen some play, but 14 + 2 on ship that frail is not enticing.
Pretty much this.
Had the title either been free or the base ship been 12 points like it should have been it would be fine.
But no...they did to it like what they did to the defender and priced it out of the game.
SUCH A SHAME
Such A cool looking ship with a bad assets paint job.
After trying this ship I can honestly say it is Seriously overpriced.
It needs to clock in as the same cost of a Tie. Then pay for the upgrades. That's the only way to make it worthwhile.
I bought 6 of these at the expansions release. Jeez what a waste of money.
To be fair, there were a lot of predictions that it would be overpriced and especially that it wouldn't find a competitive role at all without upgrades. People were mixed, and still are to some extent, on whether or not the cannon can save it (I think it can have a use in some lists, but it's rare), but it will struggle in the current meta and it really shouldn't have been a surprise.
There was probably a concern over an incredibly cheap HLC platform, especially on the higher PS ships. If they would have started at 12, you could have had 4 with HLCs and shield, which is pretty nasty (and more dangerous and resilient than 4 sigmas), for example. It also would have meant 5 PS 5s with HLCs. ....BTW, I agree that they're overcosted, but it's pretty clear that one thing that determines point cost is how many/what of a ship they feel should be in 100 point list in terms of balance and not just an individual ship's abilities.
Edited by AlexWI think a number of things factor into this.
They are squishy, a single strong roll can flatten them, yet they don't have any realistic way of mitgating that beyond bolting on extra sheild/hull. For a 2 attack ship thats difficult to overcome.
Their unique attachments is stupidly expensive. Cannon in themselves are already hard sells, thus bolting a extra 2 points to every cannon makes them harder to make points back. I mean, seriously, aside from the aggressor and some Firespray builds, who even takes cannons? Most ships that could take them has minimun change. Ditto with the other special weapons which are a hard sell even for their orignal points cost at times, why would you even bother taking this on a scyk when you got cheaper/duriable platforms? (Z-95, Starviper and Y-wing respectively). 2 points for a title turns the flexable little platform into a bit of a libablity. In addiction they don't have the illcid slot, which means they can't be given dead man switches.
Their unique plots are interesting but not exceptional. The former relies on being missed (which can happen. But again, 2 dice offensive ship is not that good and cannons make him worth the quarter of a list.) and the second is a poor mans biggs with a great effect on a terrible frame. (For 5 points less, she's less duriable and loses an attack? A single agility dice isn't worth all that. Though it might be worth bolting on sheilds or a stealth device sometime to try and use this.)
There are perks to them, such as agility 3 being really strong for long distrance trade offs and they have a fantastic dial and and an array of actions, but the issue is the game doesn't really favor that format. Huge ships are capable of weathering a good portion of what they can deal, plus they cannot really be easily modded nor have the same swarm assistance that the empire has (howlrunner) means that they struggle to have an nichie that the Z-95, that comes in 2's with ever starter set, doesn't already occupy.
Personally, I would have increased the base cost of this ship by 3 and given them a third hull or a second shield as standard. Reduce the title cost to 1 or 0. Suddenly they would become sangificantly more appealing not as a mere featherweight fighter, but a more modern featherweight that can actually punch above it's weight. The main issue is that it would clash with the generic starvipers role, but they would have seperate advantages that would mean they wouldn't neccessarily clash. (An generic Scyk would cost 17, a mauler would bring them up to 22. 3 points cheaper then a starviper. Named characters would also gain sangificant value, imagine running Sir at 23 points with starvipers. It would almost be worth not taking autothrusters on all of them!)
Well, I guess one could just put hull on them already. I somehow came to that conclusion while I was thinking of fixing it. XD But I think their title card is too expensive for what it does.
As has been mentioned you are paying 14 points for a tie fighter, the ship naked isn't 2 points better than a z-95 so no you have to put the title on it to be useable.
You know, I'm sick of people saying it's too expensive. If you look at it like a Tie Academy at 12 pts, for just 2 pts you get:
- +1 PS
- Shield instead of a hull (Great with all these crits these days)
- Ability to TL - used more than you would think.
- You can 1 sharp turn and 1 bank
I played in Wave 1 and I really liked Tie Fighters. They are quite useful and fun to fly, in my humble opinion. When I look at things, the Rebels get the Z-95 as their cheap ship. The Imperials get the generic Tie Fighter. Scum gets BOTH! OK, the Scyk is 2 more points, but you get upgrades for those 2 pts. It's still a basic Tie Fighter. You can use both in a Scum list. Or pick which you prefer.
How many people have flown generic Scyks before? They are great blockers and they have a much better movement dial than Z-95's. Once you zip past and end up not getting a shot, you can always grab that TL and then zip in to get a R1 shot on someone next turn. The 1 sharp turn is fantastic for knife fighting and/or blocking. Combine it with the Barrel Roll and you can do a lot with the ship.
Now, there is a local guy who plays a list that I've seen as really effective that uses Scyks. He uses Kath w/ various upgrades, 2 Mangler Scyks, and a plain Scyk. Kath ends up zipping past and boosting while the Scyks slow roll to get you in a pincher. If you go for one, the other gets you. He uses the generic Scyk to block and stick out front so that you tend to forget it doesn't have the Mangler Cannon. The others fly more conservatively and behind the blocker to get the shots. Sometimes those Scyks die fast, and sometimes they are maddeningly hard to kill.
As has been mentioned you are paying 14 points for a tie fighter, the ship naked isn't 2 points better than a z-95 so no you have to put the title on it to be useable.
You know, I'm sick of people saying it's too expensive. If you look at it like a Tie Academy at 12 pts, for just 2 pts you get:
- +1 PS
- Shield instead of a hull (Great with all these crits these days)
- Ability to TL - used more than you would think.
- You can 1 sharp turn and 1 bank
I played in Wave 1 and I really liked Tie Fighters. They are quite useful and fun to fly, in my humble opinion. When I look at things, the Rebels get the Z-95 as their cheap ship. The Imperials get the generic Tie Fighter. Scum gets BOTH! OK, the Scyk is 2 more points, but you get upgrades for those 2 pts. It's still a basic Tie Fighter. You can use both in a Scum list. Or pick which you prefer.
How many people have flown generic Scyks before? They are great blockers and they have a much better movement dial than Z-95's. Once you zip past and end up not getting a shot, you can always grab that TL and then zip in to get a R1 shot on someone next turn. The 1 sharp turn is fantastic for knife fighting and/or blocking. Combine it with the Barrel Roll and you can do a lot with the ship.
Now, there is a local guy who plays a list that I've seen as really effective that uses Scyks. He uses Kath w/ various upgrades, 2 Mangler Scyks, and a plain Scyk. Kath ends up zipping past and boosting while the Scyks slow roll to get you in a pincher. If you go for one, the other gets you. He uses the generic Scyk to block and stick out front so that you tend to forget it doesn't have the Mangler Cannon. The others fly more conservatively and behind the blocker to get the shots. Sometimes those Scyks die fast, and sometimes they are maddeningly hard to kill.
I was just going to list those very same things you did. How is +1 PS, Shield instead of Hull, TL and 1 sharp turns not worth +2 pts? Is it because no one ever upgrades a Z-95 or a Tie, so adding any points is not worth it?
They are, at a minimum, 2-3 points overcosted once you factor in the title. Given that the restrictions on the dial and the softness of the ship should have been enough to mitigate cannon-spam, it makes it functionally inefficient IMO. Base 13 plus 1 point title might have seen some play, but 14 + 2 on ship that frail is not enticing.
Pretty much this.
Had the title either been free or the base ship been 12 points like it should have been it would be fine.
But no...they did to it like what they did to the defender and priced it out of the game.
SUCH A SHAME
Such A cool looking ship with a bad assets paint job.
Yeah it is a cool ship, that needs our cool in-house rules fixes.
@Tokyogriz
If you buy 6 of any ship with its release it's an expected loss isnt it?
Not for EPIC game play...
Took two M3-As to our Spring kit tournament tonight. Only 5 people showed up and I got the 1st round bye, so I only got to play 2 games. In both games, I had a Scyk die in the first round of combat. First was to an Aggressor snipe with hit, hit, crit vs. my blank, blank, blank. Second one was range 1 against two Obsidian TIEs with focus + target lock (courtesy of Colonel Jendon). So while my first game saw a Scyk dodging hits for 4 rounds on the merits of 3 agility dice, the subsequent three games saw them crumple like paper.
I bought 6 of these at the expansions release. Jeez what a waste of money.
Ouch! So sorry to hear that!
I got 8 of the **** things...
Dat EPIC... GRRrrr!
Only played a couple of games against M3-A's, but where I did, they were tooled up. Generics with the M3-A title card, Mangler Cannons and Stealth Device. My opponent tried to keep them at range 3 and they were an absolute nightmare to take down.
I appreciate that bolting on that many upgrades onto such a cheap ship is usually considered throwing good money after bad, but they were pretty bloody nasty.
As has been mentioned you are paying 14 points for a tie fighter, the ship naked isn't 2 points better than a z-95 so no you have to put the title on it to be useable.
You know, I'm sick of people saying it's too expensive. If you look at it like a Tie Academy at 12 pts, for just 2 pts you get:
You can be sick of it, but I think the evidence points to the fact that it is overcosted, at least as the meta currently stands. Maybe if you see a shift away from turrets it will improve a bit (where the dial does help it more).
You do mention some benefits, but the bottom line is that cheap generic ships need to be, well, cheap. Being overcosted by a point or two means that taking multiples of them, over the course of a 100 pt list, you're now 4-8 points over what could have been spent on moving a generic ship to a named pilot or some very good upgrades elsewhere. I mean, the A-wing is a superior ship to it in all ways (dial, shield, actions) and it costs 15 points (just one more point) with -1 PS with refit and you don't see many of them (though it is seen more).
On some of the specifics:
- I don't think that going from PS 1 to PS 2 is worth much (and definitely not a point) on the cheap filler ships. It doesn't eliminate the double re-roll of predator and loses some effectiveness as a blocker. Give me the option of saving a point for that PS and in most cases, I'd probably save the point.
- I'm also not sure shield is worth an extra point over hull either, since in order to save you from a crit, that crit has to be your only damage on the shot. Tough to know here whether I'd want this or not if it was a 1 point option.
- I love that it has TL, but I only have the chance to use it when I am playing small ship lists. It's not an ideal action on a low PS, high agility ship. Again, if you gave me the option of saving a point on the ship to not have it, I definitely leave it off.
- I think the dial is absolutely better than people give it credit for (myself included when it originally was spoiled). However, again, we've not seen any dial be extremely valuable (see A-Wing above), though again, dials are less valuable when turrets are so prevalent.
I realize some of those are personal preference, but for comparison I'd compare it to an Obsidian TIe instead of an Academy. Now the Obsidian is PS 3, it's not as good as a blocker because of the high PS, but it is one point cheaper, lessens the effect of predator, and is better against PS 2 lists since it shoots first and moves after.
Edited by AlexWYou know, I'm sick of people saying it's too expensive. If you look at it like a Tie Academy at 12 pts, for just 2 pts you get:
+1 PSShield instead of a hull (Great with all these crits these days)Ability to TL - used more than you would think. You can 1 sharp turn and 1 bank
I played in Wave 1 and I really liked Tie Fighters. They are quite useful and fun to fly, in my humble opinion. When I look at things, the Rebels get the Z-95 as their cheap ship. The Imperials get the generic Tie Fighter. Scum gets BOTH! OK, the Scyk is 2 more points, but you get upgrades for those 2 pts. It's still a basic Tie Fighter. You can use both in a Scum list. Or pick which you prefer.
While I generally agree with what you have said, what makes cheap ties generally viable in a tournament is a swarm with one unique ship like Howlrunner that gives that little extra for all working together. Scum does not have it. The two unique pilots only have a defensive ability, which is needed, but nothing to overcome the mediocre attack abilities of the individual scyks.
This is a problem with scum Z's as well.
You know, I'm sick of people saying it's too expensive. If you look at it like a Tie Academy at 12 pts, for just 2 pts you get:
- +1 PS
- Shield instead of a hull (Great with all these crits these days)
- Ability to TL - used more than you would think.
- You can 1 sharp turn and 1 bank
Going from PS1 to PS2 is worth much less than a single point. Moving from 3/0 hull/shields to 2/1 isn't worth a full point. The ability to target lock is less on fragile ships than on durable ones, and it's worth less on low-PS ships than high-PS ones, so the generic Scyk gets hit twice. Access to 1-bank is nice, but not nearly as useful as access to 1-straight.
And worse, those things don't stack in a linear way--there are diminishing returns. So even if we agreed that (say) each of the four items in your list is worth about half a point, adding all four of them isn't worth an additional 4 * 0.5 = 2 points.
So you're right that it's close to the right place. 12 would have been too cheap, so 13 is probably the right spot. But my play experiences with them since release have persuaded me that, unfortunately, the basic Scyk probably isn't worth 2 points more than an Academy Pilot.
What about something crazy like a Scum Swarm that isn't just pure Z-95s.
What about something crazy like a Scum Swarm that isn't just pure Z-95s.
All the problems of a TIE Swarm, but with bonus defense rather than bonus offense.
If you encounter PTL/Autothruster/Stealth Fel, you will NEED to outfly him, because you won't be able to damage him at Range 2-3.
As has been mentioned you are paying 14 points for a tie fighter, the ship naked isn't 2 points better than a z-95 so no you have to put the title on it to be useable.
You know, I'm sick of people saying it's too expensive. If you look at it like a Tie Academy at 12 pts, for just 2 pts you get:
- +1 PS
- Shield instead of a hull (Great with all these crits these days)
- Ability to TL - used more than you would think.
- You can 1 sharp turn and 1 bank
I played in Wave 1 and I really liked Tie Fighters. They are quite useful and fun to fly, in my humble opinion. When I look at things, the Rebels get the Z-95 as their cheap ship. The Imperials get the generic Tie Fighter. Scum gets BOTH! OK, the Scyk is 2 more points, but you get upgrades for those 2 pts. It's still a basic Tie Fighter. You can use both in a Scum list. Or pick which you prefer.
How many people have flown generic Scyks before? They are great blockers and they have a much better movement dial than Z-95's. Once you zip past and end up not getting a shot, you can always grab that TL and then zip in to get a R1 shot on someone next turn. The 1 sharp turn is fantastic for knife fighting and/or blocking. Combine it with the Barrel Roll and you can do a lot with the ship.
Now, there is a local guy who plays a list that I've seen as really effective that uses Scyks. He uses Kath w/ various upgrades, 2 Mangler Scyks, and a plain Scyk. Kath ends up zipping past and boosting while the Scyks slow roll to get you in a pincher. If you go for one, the other gets you. He uses the generic Scyk to block and stick out front so that you tend to forget it doesn't have the Mangler Cannon. The others fly more conservatively and behind the blocker to get the shots. Sometimes those Scyks die fast, and sometimes they are maddeningly hard to kill.
I was just going to list those very same things you did. How is +1 PS, Shield instead of Hull, TL and 1 sharp turns not worth +2 pts? Is it because no one ever upgrades a Z-95 or a Tie, so adding any points is not worth it?
On the PS2 Scyk without the title, the extra PS over a TIE or A-Wing isn't really a benefit. The higher PS can hamper it in it's role as a blocker.
I also don't see Target Lock as much of a benefit either. The only time that I could see using a Target Lock is when you don't have a shot, aren't going to be a target and don't need to barrel roll.
Instead of comparing the Scyk to a TIE, compare it to an A-Wing. Spend 4 points on a Shield Upgrade for your Scyk and now you've got an 18 point A-Wing with a barrel-roll instead of a boost, an arguably worse dial, +1PS and no modification slot. That's a one point difference until you either take away the A-Wing's missile slot or give one to the Scyk. Either way you go you end up with a Scyk that is essentially an A-Wing for 3 extra points. Or instead of comparing it to the Prototype, compare it to the Green Squad Pilot, which ends up being a point cheaper with an extra point of Pilot Skill and an EPT slot (actually 2 EPT slots).
I could see maybe 13 points for the base Scyk and a point for the title.
Edited by WWHSDI have yet to fly with or against Scyks. I have no idea what to expect. Since no one around here is using them, I'll probably underestimate them.
Is it only about top tables at big tournaments?
Is it only about top tables at big tournaments?
nope
it's about Scyks just kinda sucking 
they had some promise, 23 points for an HLC tie fighter seemed reasonable next to the Sigma phantom, but they're just hampered by horrible cost : effectiveness ratio
Edited by ficklegreendiceIs it only about top tables at big tournaments?
I don't think so. I think people have made a variety of different points about why the Scyk is overcosted including tournament data but also direct comparisons to other similarly ships and personal experience
On the other hand point efficiency discussions are all about the competitive of the game, so tournament success is an important measure in that discussion. If you don't care about that, then there's no real reason to worry about whether a ship is overcosted or not.
Is it only about top tables at big tournaments?
nope
it's about Scyks just kinda sucking
they had some promise, 23 points for an HLC tie fighter seemed reasonable next to the Sigma phantom, but they're just hampered by horrible cost : effectiveness ratio
I'm shocked at you. You are the champion of the delta with control cannon, but you try to stuff hlc on those poor little sycks? I think 19 points for a nimble ion fighter is super awesome supporting a centerpiece ship. You can fit 2 with a 62 point monster or 3 with a 43 point hefty beater. Keep them at long range and annoy and control the enemy while your main ship does whatever he needs. At 19 points of control, it's honestly not that hard to get value back from them if you have the right payoff ship chewing up the enemy.