Which is the most hard rule to understand it?

By Mndela, in The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game

This post is not a critique. This post if good for players to be aware of the most hard interpretations about some rules (usually in faq).

Ok then, which rule is the most hard to undertand it? Which is the more hard interpretation about some rule, the most confusing one?

My vote for: difference between 'limit X per round/phase' and 'limit X per game'

Edited by Mndela

Resource matches, possibly. As a new player it's not very intuitive, but the only time you definitely need a hero with the correct resource icon is when you want to play a 0-cost card. When I was new, I thought 0-cost cards could be played by any hero. Then I thought A Good Harvest and Elrond could pay for 0-cost cards (note: you can't, because it says you can spend resources for it and you're not spending anything). So if you want to play e.g. a 0-cost event like Close Call, you need a hero with a Tactics resource icon.

edit: Narvi's Belt should work, though, as it gives you a new resource icon and not just the option to spend resources in another sphere. Right?

Edited by Olorin93

To a certain extent, the order and logic of response triggering can be a nightmare. Especially if multiple things trigger off one event, but then one the responses removes the triggering event.

Also effects that are granted by cards that then leave play - I'm never quite clear which effects remain and which do not. Out of interest, if we post here, are we self-selecting as good players? :D

Oh yes, and any and all 'immunity' rules. Cos these keep changing...

Declaring attacks vs. participating in attacks and the limits on them. This took me a lot of careful reading and some FAQ updates before I finally feel pretty confident about it.

Immunity is definitely tricky. For example: you can use Quick Strike to attack an enemy with Immune to Player Card Effects, but you cannot use Hands Upon the Bow.

Anything that calls for extra attacks, attacks from staging area, or attacks outside of combat. It is especially annoying when shadow effects cause new attacks on next player as with the body guards on Mogul Vale. Trying to understand how action windows and shadow cards work in such situations is brutal.

Also, far less frequent, but the difference between "questing successfully" and physically placing progress, which are two separate steps.

The declaring attacks rules trip me up as do action windows. I'm pretty sure I don't actually have the best grasp on when you can actually play events and such but it's not a tournament game so if my friends and I mess something up it's not the worst thing in the world.

With declaring attacks you can only declare one attack per enemy per round right? So if I have Unexpected courage on Gimili or something and he attacks something and it doesn't die, he can ready but can't attack that enemy again?

Yes to both Olorin (Narvi's belt grants a resource icon so you can play 0-cost cards) and Epi Lepi (a player can only declare one attack against an enemy in a round).

I'll echo others above and say that Immunity is probably the hardest for me to figure out... as danpoage mentioned Quick Strike and Hands Upon the Bow are different despite their similar wording.

What makes Quick Strike different from Hands Upon the Bow? The former says "any eligible" enemy target, but I wasn't aware there was a semantic difference.

What makes Quick Strike different from Hands Upon the Bow? The former says "any eligible" enemy target, but I wasn't aware there was a semantic difference.

Hopefully Caleb will address this in the FAQ, but the answer is a bit tricky. Quick Strike basically allows you to trigger the "Declare attacks against enemies" step with a single character during any action window. Because the event is merely triggering a normal framework step, it can be used against enemies that are immune to player card effects. Although the wording looks similar, Hands Upon the Bow actually functions differently. It is an effect which allows an attack to be declared against an enemy in the staging area, but it grants this ability because normally characters cannot declare attacks against enemies in the staging area. Because this granted effect is beyond the basic framework step of declaring attacks, this card does not work against enemies that are immune to player card effects. This is not intuitive, but when you think about Quick Strike just being a short-circuit of an existing game mechanic whereas Hands Upon the Bow grants a special ability (staging area attack), it makes a bit more sense. The fact that this surprises people (it definitely surprised me when I asked Caleb about it originally) is why I chose it as an example of a confusing rule.

It still sits odd with me, since Quick Strike lets you declare attacks during Planning, Quest phase, anytime. That's certainly outside of the typical "framework" of effects. So yeah, immunity is hard.

I have never really struggled with immunity questions. They make sense to me. The reason that quick strike is different is because it never effects the enemy. It effects the character, allowing it to attack. The attack effects the enemy, but attacks can effect immune enemies because it is a normal framework activity, even if outside the normal turn order. Hand upon the bow does more than just allow an attack, because it targets an enemy in staging, which is not normal. Since you have to target the enemy to use Hand upon the Bow, immunity prevents it. The one that is kinda weird is Dori, because he targets damage and never a character or enemy, but I accept that. I still think Landroval should work on Beorn, but I guess he doesn't because the hero that Landroval saves never actually goes to the discard to lose its text.

I think the hardest rule from me to understand, initially, was around declaring attacks, participating in attacks and cards that allowed for additional attacks... that was before I realised how poorly I understood the timing of when things are meant to happen; action windows, responses, events, triggers, forced effects, optional effects that you can choose, optional effects that you can't choose etc (especially when there are multiple triggers etc all at the same time)!

The most baffling have been the immunity rules.

I have never really struggled with immunity questions. They make sense to me. The reason that quick strike is different is because it never effects the enemy. It effects the character, allowing it to attack. The attack effects the enemy, but attacks can effect immune enemies because it is a normal framework activity, even if outside the normal turn order. Hand upon the bow does more than just allow an attack, because it targets an enemy in staging, which is not normal. Since you have to target the enemy to use Hand upon the Bow, immunity prevents it. The one that is kinda weird is Dori, because he targets damage and never a character or enemy, but I accept that. I still think Landroval should work on Beorn, but I guess he doesn't because the hero that Landroval saves never actually goes to the discard to lose its text.

Landroval does work on Beorn.

Hero that Landroval saves actually goes to the discard pile because of one simple reason: Landrovals main trigger reads "after".

What makes Quick Strike different from Hands Upon the Bow? The former says "any eligible" enemy target, but I wasn't aware there was a semantic difference.

Hopefully Caleb will address this in the FAQ, but the answer is a bit tricky. Quick Strike basically allows you to trigger the "Declare attacks against enemies" step with a single character during any action window. Because the event is merely triggering a normal framework step, it can be used against enemies that are immune to player card effects. Although the wording looks similar, Hands Upon the Bow actually functions differently. It is an effect which allows an attack to be declared against an enemy in the staging area, but it grants this ability because normally characters cannot declare attacks against enemies in the staging area. Because this granted effect is beyond the basic framework step of declaring attacks, this card does not work against enemies that are immune to player card effects. This is not intuitive, but when you think about Quick Strike just being a short-circuit of an existing game mechanic whereas Hands Upon the Bow grants a special ability (staging area attack), it makes a bit more sense. The fact that this surprises people (it definitely surprised me when I asked Caleb about it originally) is why I chose it as an example of a confusing rule.

Öhm ... Hands upon a bow will work against enemies which are immune ..

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/82264-immune-to-player-card-effects-and-attacking-the-staging-area/?p=793063

From FAQ:

For example: Hands Upon the Bow (D 131) cannot be
used to attack an enemy that is immune to player card
effects, because it clearly indicates that the player must
pick an enemy in the staging area to attack. This is
different from Quick Strike (Core 35), which targets a
character and allows them to perform a normal attack,
which is a framework effect.
So its not intuitive, but it is like this.
I think we can safely answer the question "which is the most hard rule to understand it?" with "Imune to player cards effects." :D

For sure the Uniqueness rule is the hardest to understand.

I mean, why can't I have three Stewards of Gondor on the table...

Hehe...you want 2 Arwens?...no problem...Soviets know the answer ;)

Cloning Vats

(3) Attachment Neutral

cloningvats_ra2.gif

Attach to a tactics hero (he has to be red, right?)

If you controll Cloning Vats you can have multiple copies of unique cards.

Edited by OlorinCZ

Oh, not bad idea ^^