So let's say you were going to do some red teaming in prep for regionals, by practicing your list against the most likely and most dangerous lists you will face. Which lists do you choose, in what configuration?

It looks like the trend right now favors:

(1) Fat Han & Escorts (3 Z's)

(2) Super Dash & Escort(s) (Corran)

(3) YT-1300 / YT-2400 (e.g. Chewie/Leebo)

(4) Deci - Dodger (Whisper/Echo/Fel)

(5) Brobots

(6) BBBB or BBBBZ

(7) Panic Attack (BBBY w/ Tacticians)

(8) Soontir/Whisper/Doomshuttle

(9) TIE Swarm

(10) XXXZZZ or similar (Feedback Z's, etc)

Are there others? And the real question is, what specific configurations of the above are best to red team against?

Edit: Adding suggestions ...

It really depends on your list. Whatever you are most worried about. If you are worried about more than 2-3 of them I would get a new list.

You should definitely add in dual phantom/tie lists and rebel control.

I'd definitely play test against the bro bots as well as anything with four Bs in it and/or panic attack. I've also seen the occasional Soontir/Whisper/doom shuttle list, but the above lists and different combinations of them (Chewie/Corran, Corran/B-Wings, etc.) should cover 90% of what you'll face... assuming your meta is anything like mine.

Definitely test with 4b lists in mind, they're pretty popular from what I've played against.

You would need to test against both versions of Fat Han, the R2-D2 and the Gunner version are very different from each other.

Brobots are kind of a crap shoot of what you'll play against, but they all almost always have IG-88B, Autothrusters, and Inertial Dampeners. The most common upgrades I've seen have been a combination of either Predator/Advanced Sensors or VI/FCS. I rarely see PTL on Aggressors anymore.

Soontir is usually going to have Stealth Device, although I think Shield or even Hull are better. Whisper and Echo will probably have FCS and Intelligence Agent to help them with the new Decloak rules.

You should test against both Predator and VI Chiraneau if your PS bid is affected by that to see how you'd play differently against each.

Super Dash w/ Jan (VI, Chewbacca, Blaster Turret, MC title, Engine Upgrade), is a very different list from Corran. Jan makes Dash even more deadly than he already is and can destroy anything very quickly if it can't stay out of Dash's arc. Instead of relying on Corran to shore up Dash's weaknesses, this list doubles down on Dash. It's common for Jan to just hang back and not engage while Dash does all the work. This also allows her to store up focus tokens for when she finally needs them.

See this is the one aspect of competitive xwing I just don't like. Having to feel like if your list can't have a good chance against the "top" lists at the moment, don't even bother. I really wish that any well made list would have an equal chance against any other well made list. Scum has helped that to some degree, but not enough yet.

I like to play lists that aren't part of the "meta". I can do very good with them, but it can be tough to beat those top tier lists. It's not that my lists are bad, or that I don't fly them well, just that there continue to be certain ships/upgrades/combos/etc that are just so much better than the rest that many want to take them.

I just went through the Aldershot Regionals (UK) and the list I struggled against was the rebel swarm XXXZZZ or XXBZZZ, probably worth a practice run if you've seen it around your gaming scene.

See this is the one aspect of competitive xwing I just don't like. Having to feel like if your list can't have a good chance against the "top" lists at the moment, don't even bother. I really wish that any well made list would have an equal chance against any other well made list. Scum has helped that to some degree, but not enough yet.

I like to play lists that aren't part of the "meta". I can do very good with them, but it can be tough to beat those top tier lists. It's not that my lists are bad, or that I don't fly them well, just that there continue to be certain ships/upgrades/combos/etc that are just so much better than the rest that many want to take them.

There are probably 10+ archetypes that can compete right now. That's definitely more than ever before.

See this is the one aspect of competitive xwing I just don't like. Having to feel like if your list can't have a good chance against the "top" lists at the moment, don't even bother. I really wish that any well made list would have an equal chance against any other well made list. Scum has helped that to some degree, but not enough yet.

I like to play lists that aren't part of the "meta". I can do very good with them, but it can be tough to beat those top tier lists. It's not that my lists are bad, or that I don't fly them well, just that there continue to be certain ships/upgrades/combos/etc that are just so much better than the rest that many want to take them.

This is just unfortunate reality of any game. It can never be perfectly balanced; certain combinations will always work a little bit better and tournaments naturally encourage skilled players to seek every little edge.

Right now the game has a lot of viable lists, more than ever before. It's moving in the right direction.

I don't mind so much that certain archetypes dominate, it's how much they dominate by and how many game elements the current super ship archetype ignores. Does a ship really[/] need to have an HLC turret, does it really need to be able to not be affected by asteroids, does it really need to combo HLC and FCS and a better version of gunner?

There is quite a large disparity between the handful of power combos that are dominating right now and everything else. This is different from, "In comparison to the TIE Fighter, the X Wing is overcosted by 3 points". Now it's "I have 60 points of TIE Fighters left and my opponent has a 60~ point Han, there is nothing I can do", or " If I put 21 points into an X Wing it's just going to get arc dodged by his super ship and burned down in 2-3 hyper modified attacks without doing much".

4 attack dice and gunner and FCS isn't just, " A little bit better than everything else and in every game certain things rise to the top and it's reap hard to balance everything." It's busted crap. There is 'super' X Wing and then there is 'normal' X Wing, and there are only a scant few 'normal' X Wing ships that can compete with 'super' X Wing ships. Out of all those lists, the only normal ships you have are Soontir, Z's as filler, B Wing spams, and the Y Wing that ONLY has a presence in the meta at all because of the Panic Attack Stressbot. Oh, and specifically the Doomshuttle.

See this is the one aspect of competitive xwing I just don't like. Having to feel like if your list can't have a good chance against the "top" lists at the moment, don't even bother. I really wish that any well made list would have an equal chance against any other well made list. Scum has helped that to some degree, but not enough yet.

I don't believe that the situation is quite so dire as you make it out to be. While there are certainly good and bad combos (ever wanted to put expose on Biggs?), I find that most well thought-out lists stand as much of a chance at winning events as others, it's mostly just a question of more people taking the same list makes that list more likely to win. People tend to take lists that have already been proven good by someone else instead of trying to tread a new path, so when one person is successful with a list, a lot of other people try it and some of those people also win events, reinforcing the idea that it's a "top tier" list. I mean, nobody ever put R2-D2 on the Falcon until it won worlds (and I believe that Paul Heaver got the idea from the runner up at gencon) and now half of the time I see a Falcon it has two droids on board instead of one (with a gunner or Lando).

So while I enjoy playing lists of my own design (and have been pleased with the results), it would be suicide to take one to an event without practicing against (or at least considering a strategy for) the lists I'm likely to face, which is what the OP seems to be doing.

I don't mind so much that certain archetypes dominate, it's how much they dominate by and how many game elements the current super ship archetype ignores. Does a ship really[/] need to have an HLC turret, does it really need to be able to not be affected by asteroids, does it really need to combo HLC and FCS and a better version of gunner?

There is quite a large disparity between the handful of power combos that are dominating right now and everything else. This is different from, "In comparison to the TIE Fighter, the X Wing is overcosted by 3 points". Now it's "I have 60 points of TIE Fighters left and my opponent has a 60~ point Han, there is nothing I can do", or " If I put 21 points into an X Wing it's just going to get arc dodged by his super ship and burned down in 2-3 hyper modified attacks without doing much".

4 attack dice and gunner and FCS isn't just, " A little bit better than everything else and in every game certain things rise to the top and it's reap hard to balance everything." It's busted crap. There is 'super' X Wing and then there is 'normal' X Wing, and there are only a scant few 'normal' X Wing ships that can compete with 'super' X Wing ships. Out of all those lists, the only normal ships you have are Soontir, Z's as filler, B Wing spams, and the Y Wing that ONLY has a presence in the meta at all because of the Panic Attack Stressbot. Oh, and specifically the Doomshuttle.

First off, you're wrong several points. Especially that last statement about he Y wing.

Second off, the game you want to play is so boring I wouldn't even buy it.

I don't mind so much that certain archetypes dominate, it's how much they dominate by and how many game elements the current super ship archetype ignores. Does a ship really[/] need to have an HLC turret, does it really need to be able to not be affected by asteroids, does it really need to combo HLC and FCS and a better version of gunner?

So first off no ship has all of those pieces and hyperbole doesn't help your point.

Second, flying these super ships does take a certain amount of skill. Keeping hyper-mobile Dash at Range 3 to minimize damage takes skilled piloting. Skilled Falcon pilots don't just charge in, but instead have to skirt around the edges of the battlefield. While this may not be what you want, it's not the point and click that it sometimes appears to be.

Panic Attack is the only build in the meta right now that is both A.) Good, and B.) has a Y Wing in it. I don't care about Kavil, he's a huge points sink and all the builds with him in it can't compete with Super X Wing builds.

So you wouldn't have played this game pre-wave 4? Too boring a game where everything is somewhat reasonably balanced and you actually had to point your ship's arc at something to shoot it?

Panic Attack is the only build in the meta right now that is both A.) Good, and B.) has a Y Wing in it.

What about the four Y-Wing list that won a regional tournament?

Panic Attack is the only build in the meta right now that is both A.) Good, and B.) has a Y Wing in it. I don't care about Kavil, he's a huge points sink and all the builds with him in it can't compete with Super X Wing builds.

So you wouldn't have played this game pre-wave 4? Too boring a game where everything is somewhat reasonably balanced and you actually had to point your ship's arc at something to shoot it?

Most everything is reasonably balanced. Scyks, defenders and x wings need some help. Y-wings with diverse builds are making top 8 at large events regularly. Afaik none of those has been a classic panic attack build.

Off the top of my head:

Corran 2Y

Dash 2Y(title or autoblaster)

4Y scum with titles and a mix of ion and blaster turrets.

3Y scum with autoblasters and one Kavil

2/3Y lists with Xizor

I know there are more, but that's already more role and list diversity than almost any other ship in the game.

I'd add a TIE swarm to your list

So you wouldn't have played this game pre-wave 4? Too boring a game where everything is somewhat reasonably balanced and you actually had to point your ship's arc at something to shoot it?

Turrets have been around since Wave 2.

So you wouldn't have played this game pre-wave 4? Too boring a game where everything is somewhat reasonably balanced and you actually had to point your ship's arc at something to shoot it?

Ah yes. The pre-wave 4 days, where all you ever saw was XXBB or TIE Swarm, and the only time you saw a unique pilot was when it was Howlrunner or Biggs. A true golden age of game balance. /sarcasm

So you wouldn't have played this game pre-wave 4? Too boring a game where everything is somewhat reasonably balanced and you actually had to point your ship's arc at something to shoot it?

Turrets have been around since Wave 2.

Threepio wasn`t. Its nit just the turret.

So you wouldn't have played this game pre-wave 4? Too boring a game where everything is somewhat reasonably balanced and you actually had to point your ship's arc at something to shoot it?

Ah yes. The pre-wave 4 days, where all you ever saw was XXBB or TIE Swarm, and the only time you saw a unique pilot was when it was Howlrunner or Biggs. A true golden age of game balance. /sarcasm

And where maneuvering your ships actually mattered?

So you wouldn't have played this game pre-wave 4? Too boring a game where everything is somewhat reasonably balanced and you actually had to point your ship's arc at something to shoot it?

Ah yes. The pre-wave 4 days, where all you ever saw was XXBB or TIE Swarm, and the only time you saw a unique pilot was when it was Howlrunner or Biggs. A true golden age of game balance. /sarcasm

And where maneuvering your ships actually mattered?

it still does. That you think otherwise is the reason you lose.

Sure manoeuvring (still) matters.

But it matters a lot LESS for turreted ships.

Yes, yes I know that a Fat Han does move in order to try and get away from enemy fire arcs.

But that is hardly the same as trying to stay out of enemy fire arcs while still having shots yourself. (in your front arc only)

And giving the Millennium Falcon more than 10 hull/shields (combined) plus on top[ of that C3PO and/or R2D2 was a mistake IMO.

Imagine a MF with 6 hull and 4 shields. Same upgrades/pilots possible as now but at a reduced cost.

I genuinely believe it would improve the game a bit.

And the game is pretty darn good as it is mind you. Just not perfect.

Hm, perhaps there should be a separate thread for people who want to discuss how the sky is falling (again/still). So, let's not hate the game or the playa, and either add to the debate the OP is seeking to have, or have your tangent somewhere else.

It might be worthwhile to have a dyadic table that assesses how each of these archetypes measures up to each of the others. At the time of writing, the OP has 8 archetypes that does seem to match what I've noticed on the tournament tables. I've been flying a Deci-Dodger (w/ Echo), but I'm not wise enough to know which of these is necessarily the poor match-up. I find that player skill is the most important variable, which we can't really craft a theory around.

Sure manoeuvring (still) matters.

But it matters a lot LESS for turreted ships.

Yes, yes I know that a Fat Han does move in order to try and get away from enemy fire arcs.

But that is hardly the same as trying to stay out of enemy fire arcs while still having shots yourself. (in your front arc only)

And giving the Millennium Falcon more than 10 hull/shields (combined) plus on top[ of that C3PO and/or R2D2 was a mistake IMO.

Imagine a MF with 6 hull and 4 shields. Same upgrades/pilots possible as now but at a reduced cost.

I genuinely believe it would improve the game a bit.

And the game is pretty darn good as it is mind you. Just not perfect.

Ditto, the diversity of the game has really improved lately but edge is still with fatter turrets and the game would be improved even more if small base dogfights were more prevalent (yes the swarm is still quite good).

Soap box moment over. My recommendation is to fight a dual decimator with gunner on each. That's a really tough list that basically requires you not hit obstacles or fly off the mat to be very competitive.