Ditto, the diversity of the game has really improved lately but edge is still with fatter turrets and the game would be improved even more if small base dogfights were more prevalent (yes the swarm is still quite good).

I'm not sure the TIE swarm really is all that good right now. There's just so much stuff out there that can 1-shot TIEs, doesn't have to really care about missing the actions due to being blocked, or has an area effect.

Soap box moment over. My recommendation is to fight a dual decimator with gunner on each. That's a really tough list that basically requires you not hit obstacles or fly off the mat to be very competitive.

That may be true in an area that isn't very competitive. I think the hot players in my area (of which I'm not one) would eat these alive if not flown with more finesse than the ability to not hit obstacles or fly off the board.

But it matters a lot LESS for turreted ships.

Yes, yes I know that a Fat Han does move in order to try and get away from enemy fire arcs.

But that is hardly the same as trying to stay out of enemy fire arcs while still having shots yourself. (in your front arc only)

Disagree with this part - of course you want to stay out of enemy arcs while still having shots, and Autothrusters makes you want to do that in your front arc, as does tactician - which makes you want range 2. There's a whole host of abilities and upgrades that make you care deeply about the range that your at.

While flying for front arc is less important on a turreted ship - flying for range control is super important , as is flying to have the subsequent moves be both out of arc and in range. It's quite a challenge to do this and fly well. Turrets generally can't joust or they'll go down quickly, as they put so many points into the single turreted shot.

The real difficulties are the stacked damage mitigation with the point fortressing effect topped with that engine upgrade that allows large ships to both maneuver well, but also be extremely quick - Turrets are not "easy mode"

So what archetypes do the lists fall into? And what's the counter? Here's a starting point; discuss.

Primary Turret (Counter w/ Swarms?)

Fat Han & Escorts (3 Z's)

Super Dash & Escort(s) (e.g. Corran)

YT-1300 / YT-2400 (e.g. Chewie/Leebo)

Arc Dodging (Counter w/ Turrets or Control?)

Brobots

Swarm / Jousting (Counter w/ Arc Dodgers?)

BBBB or BBBBZ

XXXZZZ, or Feedback Z's

TIE Swarm

Control (Counter w/ Swarms?)

Panic Attack (BBBY w/ Tacticians)

Mixed (Counter with Control, or other mixed?)

Deci - Dodger (Whisper/Echo/Fel) (Turret + Arc Dodger)

Soontir/Whisper/Doomshuttle (Arc Dodger + Control)

Ditto, the diversity of the game has really improved lately but edge is still with fatter turrets and the game would be improved even more if small base dogfights were more prevalent (yes the swarm is still quite good).

I'm not sure the TIE swarm really is all that good right now. There's just so much stuff out there that can 1-shot TIEs, doesn't have to really care about missing the actions due to being blocked, or has an area effect.

Soap box moment over. My recommendation is to fight a dual decimator with gunner on each. That's a really tough list that basically requires you not hit obstacles or fly off the mat to be very competitive.

That may be true in an area that isn't very competitive. I think the hot players in my area (of which I'm not one) would eat these alive if not flown with more finesse than the ability to not hit obstacles or fly off the board.

Dude, decimators with no actions and gunner are great ships for one shotting tie fighters or tie interceptors. Add Vader and they are ridiculously good.

Michigan is also a very competitive area. 32 hull and shield with a perfect turret and gunner is a tough slog for any list no matter what part of the world you are in. Try it out. Not my style of play but very competitive and you should practice against it. :-)

So you wouldn't have played this game pre-wave 4? Too boring a game where everything is somewhat reasonably balanced and you actually had to point your ship's arc at something to shoot it?

Ah yes. The pre-wave 4 days, where all you ever saw was XXBB or TIE Swarm, and the only time you saw a unique pilot was when it was Howlrunner or Biggs. A true golden age of game balance. /sarcasm

And where maneuvering your ships actually mattered?

This is just whiny nonsense that doesn't help anyone leave anything.

The maneuvers you pick matter on every ship and pilot in every game you play.

So what archetypes do the lists fall into? And what's the counter? Here's a starting point; discuss.Primary Turret (Counter w/ Swarms?)Fat Han & Escorts (3 Z's)Super Dash & Escort(s) (e.g. Corran)YT-1300 / YT-2400 (e.g. Chewie/Leebo)Arc Dodging (Counter w/ Turrets or Control?)BrobotsSwarm / Jousting (Counter w/ Arc Dodgers?)BBBB or BBBBZXXXZZZ, or Feedback Z'sTIE SwarmControl (Counter w/ Swarms?)Panic Attack (BBBY w/ Tacticians)Mixed (Counter with Control, or other mixed?)Deci - Dodger (Whisper/Echo/Fel) (Turret + Arc Dodger)Soontir/Whisper/Doomshuttle (Arc Dodger + Control)

It's very difficult to group some of them by predator and prey. The upgrades on a falcon, for example, can completely swap which lists it blows up and which lists blow it up. Even 4B lists have enough upgrade variety to make them hard to group.

Panic Attack is the only build in the meta right now that is both A.) Good, and B.) has a Y Wing in it.

What about the four Y-Wing list that won a regional tournament?

Two regionals, actually, so far. Belgium and Italy. Anyone who says BTL-A4 Y-Wings aren't competitive isn't paying attention. They've definitely shown up. Not as easy to fly as turrets, though...

Awesome thread. These are the builds I consider when putting a squad together. I am still in the Fat Han is an unholy abomination camp, but the meta is "good" anyway.

So what archetypes do the lists fall into? And what's the counter? Here's a starting point; discuss.

Primary Turret (Counter w/ Swarms?)

Fat Han & Escorts (3 Z's)

Super Dash & Escort(s) (e.g. Corran)

YT-1300 / YT-2400 (e.g. Chewie/Leebo)

Arc Dodging (Counter w/ Turrets or Control?)

Brobots

Swarm / Jousting (Counter w/ Arc Dodgers?)

BBBB or BBBBZ

XXXZZZ, or Feedback Z's

TIE Swarm

Control (Counter w/ Swarms?)

Panic Attack (BBBY w/ Tacticians)

Mixed (Counter with Control, or other mixed?)

Deci - Dodger (Whisper/Echo/Fel) (Turret + Arc Dodger)

Soontir/Whisper/Doomshuttle (Arc Dodger + Control)

Super Dash, Corran, and Soontir are all arc-dodgers as well. While the turret is a big part of the list, the arc-dodger has to be able to function to some degree besides the points fortress in these lists (Dash being the exception as he is the points fortress). 4Y should also be in your jousting section. Arc-dodgers should include both triple squint and double phantom lists (usually they have a TIE tag along with them). One of the regionals was also won by a Soontir+Whisper+Mauler combo. Be aware of variations in the dual-arc-dodger type of list. Corran and two Bs has also shown up. That's a jousting+control+arc dodging list. Fat Han also sometimes gets escorted by a WSF, which is just crazy talk.

There's so much variety in these regionals. I love that it's not just all primary turrets (even if they have won a lot, they aren't all the same exact Paul Heaver Fat

Han build).

the archetype of "arc-dodger" is pretty **** meaningless now, imo

interceptors dodge arcs, large ships dodge arcs, primary turrets which are sometimes bafflingly touted as the only thing that counters arc-dodgers...******* arc-dodge

the swarm > arc-dodger > turret > swarm idea is also similarly useless, especially in the above case were turrets dodge arcs and therefore counter swarms?

I think every list has to be considered individually

as for fat primary weapon turrets, until FFG erratas them ala phantoms we just have to accept that they're in the game and have to be counter built if your list has any aspirations of viability. Because no amount of skill will keep you safe from something that can shoot you as long as you can shoot it, you counter them by packing plenty of guaranteed damage negation to keep the dice from getting to you

there's straight damage negation (Brobots evade + thrusters and fat turrets themselves with c3po + evade or ysanne, notably the heaver c3po + r2d2 Han + 3 talas made specifically to counter c3po + gunner Han, not to mention Corran horn's evade + r2-d2 or Soontir Fell's evade + thrusters or Xizor's ability + thrusters). When it comes down to a 1v1, 2 damage negated a turn pretty much makes you nearly immune, short of some horribly miserable dice. I've played a bit of E'athn (ptl + r2d2) and he's invincible when he goes mano e mano with a fattie. The only problem is you'll never catch an EU large base while doing only greens, but hey at least you're not dead.

there's control, which works pretty well when fat han does not get focus modification without Luke Skywalker (Crew) and Chiraneau doesn't get Ysanne. The fact that neither can boost also keeps them in arc.

and there's just taking as much health + dice per points (BBBBZ) to dice trade them into oblivion.

sure, it's a far duller experience for anyone facing the turret than this game deserves to be, but at least you'll get a very good shot.

and remember that 2 damage negation won't make you invincible against everyone, just mostly invincible against a single (no promises v gunner) 3 die attack even modified. HLCs, phantoms, and just multiple damage sources in general are still deadly not to mention that a lot of 2 damage negation is provided by the evade action which you generally can't take if you miss your action step (Sensors excepted, of course)

Panic Attack is the only build in the meta right now that is both A.) Good, and B.) has a Y Wing in it.

What about the four Y-Wing list that won a regional tournament?

Two regionals, actually, so far. Belgium and Italy. Anyone who says BTL-A4 Y-Wings aren't competitive isn't paying attention. They've definitely shown up. Not as easy to fly as turrets, though...

Actually I think 4y has been better than panic attack so far. I'd even consider removing panic attack from the list, I dont think its even had a top 8 yet.

But it matters a lot LESS for turreted ships.

Yes, yes I know that a Fat Han does move in order to try and get away from enemy fire arcs.

But that is hardly the same as trying to stay out of enemy fire arcs while still having shots yourself. (in your front arc only)

Disagree with this part - of course you want to stay out of enemy arcs while still having shots, and Autothrusters makes you want to do that in your front arc, as does tactician - which makes you want range 2. There's a whole host of abilities and upgrades that make you care deeply about the range that your at.

While flying for front arc is less important on a turreted ship - flying for range control is super important , as is flying to have the subsequent moves be both out of arc and in range. It's quite a challenge to do this and fly well. Turrets generally can't joust or they'll go down quickly, as they put so many points into the single turreted shot.

The real difficulties are the stacked damage mitigation with the point fortressing effect topped with that engine upgrade that allows large ships to both maneuver well, but also be extremely quick - Turrets are not "easy mode"

I am not sure where you disagree with me really. The name of the game is hurling as many dice at the enemy while receiving as few as possible in return. If you do this well you tend to win more.

Range 3 turrets have it far easier in the sense that they 'only' have to try and get out of arc of the opponent.

Sure range matters. Range 2 shots with tactician/whatnot. But how is this different for a non turreted ship?

They have to play the same 'range' game ON TOP of being able to fire themselves.

Enlighten me where it is harder for a fat turret. Please do.

For the record; nope. Not saying (or thinking) that playing turrets is auto-win.

Just that it tends to be just that bit easier, especially combined with damage mitigation upgrades. Fat Han can dodge arcs (with engine), can shoot first (PS9) and if all else fails he can redce/weather incoming fire on top of having the most hull in the game. (maybe not literally but the Decimator has zero green dice)

And consider this; if it was *harder* to play fat turrets; you think all those people going to tournaments wiht these 'net lists' are intentionally handicapping themselves? Really?

Panic Attack is the only build in the meta right now that is both A.) Good, and B.) has a Y Wing in it.

What about the four Y-Wing list that won a regional tournament?

Two regionals, actually, so far. Belgium and Italy. Anyone who says BTL-A4 Y-Wings aren't competitive isn't paying attention. They've definitely shown up. Not as easy to fly as turrets, though...

Actually I think 4y has been better than panic attack so far. I'd even consider removing panic attack from the list, I dont think its even had a top 8 yet.

Variations on the list made top 4 in West Virginia, top 8 in Florida, Quebec, Oklahoma, Germany, Texas, and Manitoba.

The regionals results are right here on this very forum. Not hard to validate.