In reading over the FAQ, I read the entry for Autothrusters and was slightly confused. Read it several more times and thought about it some.

Here's what it says:

Autothrusters does not trigger if the ship equipped with Autothrusters is inside the attacker’s primary or auxiliary firing arc at Range 1–2. If a ship with a turret weapon attacks a ship equipped with Autothrusters, first measure closest point to closest point to determine range, then use the printed firing arc on the attacker to determine whether the defender is in the attacker’s firing arc.

Now, the way I read that is the ability only triggers if you are at range 3 AND out of the attacker's arc. That would the opposite of what the card says (at range 3 OR out of the attacker's arc).

Am I just misreading that or does Autothrusters seem to now trigger less than the card indicates?

You're misreading it.

It says you don't trigger if you're in the arc at range 1-2. So if you're at range 3, you're not in the arc at range 1-2. If you're outside the arc, you're not in the arc at range 1-2. So for either of those cases, it does trigger.

There's some overly complex negation in there, I think, but it works like you think it does. Or how you thought it did before you read the FAQ.

In reading over the FAQ, I read the entry for Autothrusters and was slightly confused. Read it several more times and thought about it some.

Here's what it says:

Autothrusters does not trigger if the ship equipped with Autothrusters is inside the attacker’s primary OR auxiliary firing arc at Range 1–2. If a ship with a turret weapon attacks a ship equipped with Autothrusters, first measure closest point to closest point to determine range, then use the printed firing arc on the attacker to determine whether the defender is in the attacker’s firing arc.

Now, the way I read that is the ability only triggers if you are at range 3 AND out of the attacker's arc. That would the opposite of what the card says (at range 3 OR out of the attacker's arc).

Am I just misreading that or does Autothrusters seem to now trigger less than the card indicates?

Seems to me to be the same. Emphasis added...

Here's the card text: "When defending, if you are beyond Range 2 or outside the attacker's firing arc, you may change 1 of your blank results to a EVADE result. You can equip this card only if you have the BOOST action icon."

I'm not sure where you are getting the AND from. The FAQ says "OR". The card says "OR".

In reading over the FAQ, I read the entry for Autothrusters and was slightly confused. Read it several more times and thought about it some.

Here's what it says:

Autothrusters does not trigger if the ship equipped with Autothrusters is inside the attacker’s primary OR auxiliary firing arc at Range 1–2. If a ship with a turret weapon attacks a ship equipped with Autothrusters, first measure closest point to closest point to determine range, then use the printed firing arc on the attacker to determine whether the defender is in the attacker’s firing arc.

Now, the way I read that is the ability only triggers if you are at range 3 AND out of the attacker's arc. That would the opposite of what the card says (at range 3 OR out of the attacker's arc).

Am I just misreading that or does Autothrusters seem to now trigger less than the card indicates?

Seems to me to be the same. Emphasis added...

Here's the card text: "When defending, if you are beyond Range 2 or outside the attacker's firing arc, you may change 1 of your blank results to a EVADE result. You can equip this card only if you have the BOOST action icon."

I'm not sure where you are getting the AND from. The FAQ says "OR". The card says "OR".

In addition to all of the above, I'd like to point out that it's the logical or. Not either or.

I think the key difference is just emphasizing how you measure range which is usually in arc.

The FAQ entry is easier to understand if you read it as 2 separate parts:

Autothrusters does not trigger if the ship equipped with Autothrusters is inside the attacker’s primary or auxiliary firing arc at Range 1–2.

If a ship with a turret weapon attacks a ship equipped with Autothrusters, first measure closest point to closest point to determine range, then use the printed firing arc on the attacker to determine whether the defender is in the attacker’s firing arc.

The point the FAQ entry is trying to make is that, in the case of a turret weapon, the range measurement and the in/out of arc check are 2 independant things. They do not use the same "line".

It is a clearance for that unusual chance that you are within arc of a turret in range 3, but your closes point is within range 2. It can happen if you are in a angle i think.

I understand what was meant, but when I read it I read it to emphasize the OR. That is, if I am in the firing arc but at range 3, then it doesn't trigger.

...

It is a clearance for that unusual chance that you are within arc of a turret in range 3, but your closes point is within range 2. It can happen if you are in a angle i think.

That can happen. It results in a range 2 shot inside the firing arc. Autothrusters do not trigger.

[EDIT: removed due to ongoing rules dispute]

Always go by the raw ship-to-ship range

This only applies when attacking with a turret.

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Always go by the raw ship-to-ship range

This only applies when attacking with a turret.

When measuring the range of an attack, you're correct. But Autothrusters doesn't care about the range of the shot. Its trigger condition cares about the raw ship-to-ship distance. And the FAQ is worse than useless at conveying that.

In fact — and this is going to blow your minds — Autothrusters don't care whether the attacker used a turret *. Yet the FAQ strongly implies they do. It's a pretty horrible entry all around.

(* No, seriously. They don't.)

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

If you're out of the attacker's firing arc and the attacker does not have a turret then I don't see how you're even going to be attacked.

[removed - didn't address the question]

If you're out of the attacker's firing arc and the attacker does not have a turret then I don't see how you're even going to be attacked.

The answer to "Can the defender use the Autothrusters effect?" never depends on whether the attacker could have and/or did attack out of arc. In cases where both types of attack are possible (Han with Homing Missiles, for example, or Dash with an HLC but no Outrider), Autothrusters will either work against both or against neither.

Color me confused.

How does Han attack me with Homing Missiles if I'm out of his firing arc?

How does Dash attack me with HLC and no Outrider if I'm out of his firing arc?

I guess I'm still a NOOB...

How does Han attack me with Homing Missiles if I'm out of his firing arc?

How does Dash attack me with HLC and no Outrider if I'm out of his firing arc?

Still confused as to the point you are making, then.

The problem is that it does not specify raw range vs attack range.

Autothrusters specifies, "when defending".

With that wording, it strongly implies the range used for the attack.

Consider the picture on p.11 of the rules, #2. Ship-to-ship, the AP is clearly at Range 2. Yet, closest in-arc point is Range 3, and the rules say AP is at Range 3.

Closest point regardless of arc is the wording used in the FAQ because that's how turret ships have to determine range when using their turret (e.g. a closest-point Range 1 target out of arc with part of it in-arc Range 2 cannot trigger Tactician).

So yeah, according to the rules Autothrusters appears to care about turrets.

Han with concussion missiles against a target at Range 2 out of arc but Range 3 in arc would trigger autothrusters if he uses the missiles to attack as opposed to the turret.

Still confused as to the point you are making, then.

Sometimes, the target lies entirely within your arc. In these cases, turret weapons and arc-bound weapons are equivalent, and Autothrusters will work the same against both.

Sometimes, the target lies across an arc line. In these cases, turret weapons and arc-bound weapons can end up firing at different ranges and angles from each other. I was contending that this didn't affect whether Autothrusters trigger. (I could be wrong about that -- see the rest of the thread -- but that's a separate issue from your confusion.)

Sometimes, the target lies entirely outside your arc. In these cases, arc-bound weapons can't shoot. You're interpreting this as a case where Autothrusters work differently for turrets vs. non-turrets, so I'm wrong to state that 'thrusters don't care whether the weapon is turreted. I'm saying this is a case where there's nothing to compare the turret case to, and two things can't be different when one doesn't exist, so I'm still technically right (assuming I was to begin with, at least).

For another example, consider Rexler Brath. Does his pilot ability care about range? I say, "no". You might say, "Yes, because he can use it at Range 2 but not Range 7." I'd argue that's not a valid counterexample.

The problem is that it does not specify raw range vs attack range.

Autothrusters specifies, "when defending".

With that wording, it strongly implies the range used for the attack.

Several cards mention "attacking at Range N". That clearly means use the range of the shot. That's good! But nothing quite says "defending at Range N". And though it's intuitive to read "at Range N when defending" that way, we're expressly told "outside the attacker's firing arc when defending" refers to whether your base is in arc, not whether the shot is. And that's just confusing.

I'm not going to respond to anyone directly here, I'm simply going to try and explain as clearly as possible how you determine if Autothrusters triggers or not.

To know if Autothrusters triggers, you ask 2 questions:

1. Is any part of the defender's base in arc?
   • No: Autothrusters triggers
   • Yes: Depends on question 2
2. Is the closest point on the defender's base the attacker can target at range 3?
   This means a turret considers the closest point, regardless of arc, but a non-turreted attacker only considers the closest point in arc.
   • Yes: Autothrusters triggers
   • No: Depends on question 1

You can also check out this document I made a couple months ago: